What's in this cellar room photo?

[joeskidbeck]

You know, with all the lies and deception that the Ramseys were caught in red handed, it makes it hard to believe anything either of them say in these interviews. Lin Wood was there to make sure they didn't say one helpful word to LE and then he gets upset because LE calls a halt to the interviews. I believe they were allowed 7 hours and left after only two because it was obvious that the Ramseys were not going to answer any questions that would move the investigation along. Then they wanted to run to the press and complain about being suspects and couldn't understand why LE wouldn't move past them. LE could not move past them because they could not trust one word they said. Every single time they told a version, it changed with the next one. Can anyone explain this? I've heard all about how they were devastated and could not remember all these "tiny" details, but come on, when they wrote "DOI" they remembered things that meant absolutely nothing pertaining to the death of their daughter.

 

[Ames]

I don't believe he said there was tape on her legs. This appeared to me to be a typo in the transcription of the interview. There were several in that interview as well as the others. Some of them are so silly as to be laughable. I believe we have even determined that his so called remark of their being "lots of people there at 3 am" was a typo on the part of the transcriptionist. Anyway, if this is tape that was supposedly on her legs, he said himself that he removed the tape from her mouth and stuck it on the blanket, where is the tape? Do you believe that someone removed it? For what reason? I believe he is trying to place blame for this tape on Fleet White. By this time he had decided to throw Fleet and Priscilla under the bus and this was a prime oppotunity to mention the tape looking like what one would use on a boat. The thing about that is he also was a boater and what is to prevent us from thinking the tape belongs to him? Maybe he hid the original tape in his pocket to keep LE from seeing it and realizing the tape belonged to him. Either way, John Ramsey had a very good reason for denying this tape. He would have denied anything just to put suspicion on someone else. He may even be implying that LE is trying to frame him with this tape.

I agree. If there were actually TWO pieces of tape...one for the mouth, and one on her legs...then where is the picture of the other one?

 

[MurriFlower]

I agree. If there were actually TWO pieces of tape...one for the mouth, and one on her legs...then where is the picture of the other one?

Yes, where? That is exactly the point of what I've been doing with all this. This is grey tape on both sides, not black one side and grey on the other. So, where is the narrower black tape that was on her mouth?

 

[madeleine]

'If you throw a slice of buttered toast into the air it will always fall with the buttered side down.'

IMO it's the same with a piece of tape,try it(I just did,not just once),it will land with the sticky side down.Looks staged to me,who touched it before the pic was taken?LE or Fleet?Cause it wasn't JR IMO,since FW admitted he touched it after JR took JB upstairs.

ETA:talking about the blanket/piece of tape stuck on it photo

 

[KoldKase]

I maddy

Thanks for posting this picture of the tape.

Some time ago, I found a clearer picture of the blanket than on ACR and noticed that there was a piece of tape stuck to it. Here it is again, see the tape in the fold.

Anyway, I didn't think this looked like what was described as black gaffer tape, which some people reckoned was 2" x 2". It looked like grey tape and quite a bit longer. Remember JR said something like she had some tape on the blanket near where her legs were. He also said, as you have noted above maddy, that this tape did not look like that which was on her mouth.

I've enlarged the area where the tape is so it is easier to see the shape.

The tape (above) that was supposedly sticky side out looks as if it is the same shape as that stuck on the blanket. BUT to get it to resemble this shape, I had to mirror reverse it. So, I believe we are talking about the non-sticky side of the tape and it is definitely grey!!

So, JR was right, this is not the black tape from her mouth. Now we need to know what happened to the piece of black tape that was a little larger than electrical tape in width, because as cynic has shown us, this is 2" wide.

I don't know what to tell you, other than it's hard to exactly know what they were saying at times in the LE interviews in '98 because we don't have the photos to go along with the questions/answers as we read, except some of the time when we have screen captures of the PowerPoint photos Smit "shared" on TV in one production or another, with the "numbers" intact and readable.

Many sources, including Thomas, Schiller, and Smit, unless I'm misremembering, stated the tape from her mouth was duct tape. I bought black duct tape years ago and on the sticky side it looked exactly like the tape on the blanket. Buy some yourself and see if it still does, though products change through the years, so good luck.

As for JB's legs being bound or taped, it's true that sometimes things in these transcripts give us pause because it's hard to know what is info we didn't know before or what is a typo or mistake from transcribing audio that is far from good quality. So all I can say is if her ankles/legs were bound, that's been kept as one of those "not revealed" pieces of evidence. It's not in the autopsy. It's not in the Ramsey's book. It's not in any other book that I've read. That doesn't mean it's not true, just that this is the only time it is ever mentioned in any source I've seen and it's ambiguous to me.

That's all I know. Hope it helps.

 

[DeeDee249]

I doubt her legs were taped. I can't see police photographing the cord, blanket with the smaller piece from her mouth and NOT the other tape.

Her legs would have remained very close together if they were bound in any way, because of rigor mortis. The coroner did not mention this either to LE or in the report.

I am sure that is more JR spin to add to the "kidnapping" paraphernalia.

 

[MurriFlower]

I doubt her legs were taped. I can't see police photographing the cord, blanket with the smaller piece from her mouth and NOT the other tape.

Her legs would have remained very close together if they were bound in any way, because of rigor mortis. The coroner did not mention this either to LE or in the report.

I am sure that is more JR spin to add to the "kidnapping" paraphernalia.

I never said her legs were bound with tape, nor did JR. He was asked how he found her and he described her being wrapped in the blanket with it kind of folded around her legs and then said something like, there was uh, tape, like on her legs.

 

[DeeDee249]

I never said her legs were bound with tape, nor did JR. He was asked how he found her and he described her being wrapped in the blanket with it kind of folded around her legs and then said something like, there was uh, tape, like on her legs.

Where's that tape? I assume if it was there, it was over the longjohns, as her legs were not bare. The lonhjohns are still in evidence (hopefully) so they should be able to be tested for residue from the tape.

 

[MurriFlower]

Where's that tape? I assume if it was there, it was over the longjohns, as her legs were not bare. The lonhjohns are still in evidence (hopefully) so they should be able to be tested for residue from the tape.

I'm wondering if this grey tape is what was on her legs, seeing as how it was stuck on the blanket just where he said.

I was then asking where is the black tape, a little wider than electrical tape, that JR described taking off her mouth?

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm wondering if this grey tape is what was on her legs, seeing as how it was stuck on the blanket just where he said.

I was then asking where is the black tape, a little wider than electrical tape, that JR described taking off her mouth?

I haven't seen a photo of her legs. Where have you seen one (with the tape, of course)?

 

[MurriFlower]

I haven't seen a photo of her legs. Where have you seen one (with the tape, of course)?

Here is the photo showing the tape.

Unfortunately, she was not still wrapped in the blanket when this photo was taken! You can clearly see though that where the blanket is divided into two (closest to the camera) would have been where her legs were and the area furthest from the camera where her head and arms protruded. The tape is in the area I would have expected her legs to have been, just as JR described it.

 

[DeeDee249]

That is a photo I have seen many times, but thank you for reposting it. I see nothing there to indicate that there had been tape on her legs, regardless of which end her legs protruded from (and we really don't know anyway). That piece of tape there is much too small, and it is likely the one pulled off her mouth and dropped there by FW, who was the last person to handle it, after JR allegedly pulled it off her mouth. I say allegedly because we really don't know that for a fact either. Only two people saw JB in situ as she lay in the WC. She had been put there by whoever staged her body and certainly by whoever knew what happened to her, if they are not one and the same.
FW was only steps behind JR as they entered the WC. Yet he has never confirmed or denied what JR claimed he did upon finding JB.

 

[MurriFlower]

That is a photo I have seen many times, but thank you for reposting it. I see nothing there to indicate that there had been tape on her legs, regardless of which end her legs protruded from (and we really don't know anyway). That piece of tape there is much too small, and it is likely the one pulled off her mouth and dropped there by FW, who was the last person to handle it, after JR allegedly pulled it off her mouth. I say allegedly because we really don't know that for a fact either. Only two people saw JB in situ as she lay in the WC. She had been put there by whoever staged her body and certainly by whoever knew what happened to her, if they are not one and the same.
FW was only steps behind JR as they entered the WC. Yet he has never confirmed or denied what JR claimed he did upon finding JB.

Oh course we know, JR described exactly how she was positioned. The tape is too small for what? To have been stuck on the blanket exactly as he described. I never said her legs were bound, that was your idea.

The tape he pulled off her mouth was black.

This tape is grey on both sides.

 

[DeeDee249]

Oh course we know, JR described exactly how she was positioned. The tape is too small for what? To have been stuck on the blanket exactly as he described. I never said her legs were bound, that was your idea.

The tape he pulled off her mouth was black.

This tape is grey on both sides.

Not my idea at all. I never said that and any post where I talk about it is my response to someone else's comment about it. Actually, you said JR said they were taped and you seem to agree.
The black tape that LE bought to test against the piece found was gray on one side. I only see one side in that photo.

 

[cynic]

Here is a quick photo I took to illustrate how a shadow could be mistaken for something real:

The section of the interview where JR mentioned “legs” contained many inaudible areas:
JR: She was laying on the blanket, and the blanket was kind of folded around her legs. And her arms were tied behind her head, and there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs, and her head was cocked to the side.
TT: (Inaudible)
JR: I’m all right.
TT: I know this is (inaudible) after you found JonBenet, and (inaudible) if you would, where was Fleet at when that happened?

The transcription of that portion of the interview in the book, JonBenet, The Police Files pg.117, says, “lips.” That would be consistent with the evidence as it is presented in every other interview about the duct tape.

With respect to JR not recognizing the tape:
LOU SMIT: Photograph number --
JOHN RAMSEY: -- 149, that was like (INAUDIBLE) what looks like a big piece of duct
tape. That doesn't look like that tape I took offJonBenet's mouth.

It’s the same old tactic of attempting to distance himself from any material piece of evidence in the case.
He did the same thing with the Kleenex box, the bowl of pineapple, the tea, the flashlight etc.
The fact of the matter is that was indeed duct tape, Shurtape ultility grade black duct tape, with a fabric reinforcing weave as is common to all duct tape sold in the USA.
This was the only tape found on or near JonBenet in the WC.
It was the only tape ever mentioned by any investigator connected with the case, including Lou Smit

"By mid-February the FBI and the CBI forensics technicians had concluded part of their fingerprint typing and fiber analysis. CBI told the Boulder police that no prints had been found on the black duct tape that John Ramsey said he removed from his daughter's mouth and none were found on the broken artist's paintbrush used to make the "garrote" found around JonBenet's neck."
PMPT Page 239

Among the items on Patsy’s December 9 receipt was an item from builder’s hardware. The price was $1.99. On the December 2 slip there was an item from the garden department. It was $1.99. Duct tape also sold for $1.99. We had no way of knowing what she bought.
ST Page 136

Originally we hoped to prove the black duct tape was from the same pieces found on the back of several portraits in the house.By determining the manufacturer, we might be able to find where it was sold and then track it back to the Ramsey house. We already thought that Patsy might have purchased a roll of such tape from McGuckin’s.
The FBI lab said that both tape samples, from the mouth and the pictures, were a low grade and of low quality, possibly the Shufford Mills model PC-600, but they wouldn’t call it a match
By September 1997 Detective Gosage and I visited the Shufford Mills factory in Hickory, North Carolina and learned that the duct tape was made in small quanties. In fact it only comprised 0.4 percent of the company’s product. We determined that it was sold at McGuckin’s
Shufford Mills gave us various tapes for testing, the dates when changes were made in yarn and scrim counts, recipies for various adhesives, and the various production periods, all of which we sent back to the FBI. In November 1997 the lab said the pieces of tape came from different production runs and had different yarn counts. Same brand, same type, different production run
ST pages 281-282

 

[claudicici]

....but look how strong the shade of the fold in the blanket is in the picture you took,cynic,I think if that was a shadow in the crime photo,the fold of the blanket would cast a similar strong shadow in the shape of a half moon,I'm starting to think Murry is right,there is a piece of grey tape sticking to the blanket where her legs were in addition to the black tape that is also visible on the picture...

 

[MurriFlower]

....but look how strong the shade of the fold in the blanket is in the picture you took,cynic,I think if that was a shadow in the crime photo,the fold of the blanket would cast a similar strong shadow in the shape of a half moon,I'm starting to think Murry is right,there is a piece of grey tape sticking to the blanket where her legs were in addition to the black tape that is also visible on the picture...

Thank goodness, finally someone who can see the grey tape!! It's even the same shape as they grey tape on the evidence photo maddy posted. Grey on both sides, not black on one side and grey on the other!!

Glory be, you RDI's will all have your sight restored soon I hope LOL.

 

[cynic]

....but look how strong the shade of the fold in the blanket is in the picture you took,cynic,I think if that was a shadow in the crime photo,the fold of the blanket would cast a similar strong shadow in the shape of a half moon,I'm starting to think Murry is right,there is a piece of grey tape sticking to the blanket where her legs were in addition to the black tape that is also visible on the picture...

I don't know what and where the lighting was for the crime scene pic. I'm confident I could duplicate the effect if I spent enough time.
What clinched it for me was the crescent shaped grey shadow cast by the black tape in the crime scene photo, why would there be an identically shaped grey piece of tape just below the black tape? That, to me, is clearly a shadow.

 

[claudicici]

...for this to be a shadow the pic would have to be made straight in front of the fold of the blanket,like you made your photo.I'm really bad at explaining things (language barrier,lol) but I like to draw and from the angle the crime scene picture is taken the black tape could not have cast a straight up shadow like that ,the picture would have to be made facing the black tape straight....from that angle ,if it was a shadow it would be skinny and tilted to the right.

 

[MurriFlower]

Here is a quick photo I took to illustrate how a shadow could be mistaken for something real:

The section of the interview where JR mentioned “legs” contained many inaudible areas:
JR: She was laying on the blanket, and the blanket was kind of folded around her legs. And her arms were tied behind her head, and there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs, and her head was cocked to the side.
TT: (Inaudible)
JR: I’m all right.
TT: I know this is (inaudible) after you found JonBenet, and (inaudible) if you would, where was Fleet at when that happened?

The transcription of that portion of the interview in the book, JonBenet, The Police Files pg.117, says, “lips.” That would be consistent with the evidence as it is presented in every other interview about the duct tape.

With respect to JR not recognizing the tape:
LOU SMIT: Photograph number --
JOHN RAMSEY: -- 149, that was like (INAUDIBLE) what looks like a big piece of duct
tape. That doesn't look like that tape I took offJonBenet's mouth.

It’s the same old tactic of attempting to distance himself from any material piece of evidence in the case.
He did the same thing with the Kleenex box, the bowl of pineapple, the tea, the flashlight etc.
The fact of the matter is that was indeed duct tape, Shurtape ultility grade black duct tape, with a fabric reinforcing weave as is common to all duct tape sold in the USA.
This was the only tape found on or near JonBenet in the WC.
It was the only tape ever mentioned by any investigator connected with the case, including Lou Smit

"By mid-February the FBI and the CBI forensics technicians had concluded part of their fingerprint typing and fiber analysis. CBI told the Boulder police that no prints had been found on the black duct tape that John Ramsey said he removed from his daughter's mouth and none were found on the broken artist's paintbrush used to make the "garrote" found around JonBenet's neck."
PMPT Page 239

Among the items on Patsy’s December 9 receipt was an item from builder’s hardware. The price was $1.99. On the December 2 slip there was an item from the garden department. It was $1.99. Duct tape also sold for $1.99. We had no way of knowing what she bought.
ST Page 136

Originally we hoped to prove the black duct tape was from the same pieces found on the back of several portraits in the house.By determining the manufacturer, we might be able to find where it was sold and then track it back to the Ramsey house. We already thought that Patsy might have purchased a roll of such tape from McGuckin’s.
The FBI lab said that both tape samples, from the mouth and the pictures, were a low grade and of low quality, possibly the Shufford Mills model PC-600, but they wouldn’t call it a match
By September 1997 Detective Gosage and I visited the Shufford Mills factory in Hickory, North Carolina and learned that the duct tape was made in small quanties. In fact it only comprised 0.4 percent of the company’s product. We determined that it was sold at McGuckin’s
Shufford Mills gave us various tapes for testing, the dates when changes were made in yarn and scrim counts, recipies for various adhesives, and the various production periods, all of which we sent back to the FBI. In November 1997 the lab said the pieces of tape came from different production runs and had different yarn counts. Same brand, same type, different production run
ST pages 281-282

And of course IMO he was telling the truth, and continued to do so. This doesn't explain where is the black tape from her lips?

This is clearly grey tape, and what I set out to prove that it is grey on both sides and is the exact shape (mirror reversed) as what you are calling a shadow on the blanket.

You continue to deny that there was black and grey tape because this is just too hard to explain in an RDI theory.