Where is Madeleine? Where is she?

[philamena]

doc,
An informative and well written post.
(Keeping you and your wife in my thoughts.)

 

[docwho3]

So where is Madeleine? Is she dead? Is she in the woods somewhere in a shallow grave? Is she ashes in a pet crematory? Is she the victim of a possible serial killer/s of children who has recently come to light in relation to this case? Does an unknown and as yet (I think) unidentified partner of the possible serial killer still have her? And what was all that leaked stuff about evidence of death scent by the beach, whatever became of that?

OR

Could Madeleine be alive?

For the moment I lean towards her being dead due to the "cadaver dog evidence".

If the parents did it what special knowledge do they bring to the table to help in disposing of that body? If the parents did it I still think refrigeration (not freezing) was used at some point unless they found somewhere to mumify the remains in a short amount of time where the smell would not be out of place. People have pointed out the freezers of that place were too small to accomodate her remains but I think the refrigeration part would be large enough and would do the job in a pinch.
Also I have known some hotels to have a large ice cube making machine that you can go and get ice cubes from. I wonder if their vacation place had such a machine. I think you could hide a small body under all that ice or at least could use the ice itself and a large cooler.

If the possible serial killer person got her then how were his other victims disposed of? Did he vary his method of disposal or not? I only know a few reported details of his last alleged victim, buried in the woods in shallow grave and dug up by animals.

Knowing the killer/s well might help to guess where to look for the body. When someone accidently causes a death they tend to treat the body differently than they otherwise might and people that know the victim often treat the body differently than they otherwise might. So what would be done with Madeleine depending on the various POI in this case?

 

[AfterMidnight]

Good questions, Doc, I need to start at the beginning:

"So where is Madeleine? Is she dead? Is she in the woods somewhere in a shallow grave? Is she ashes in a pet crematory? Is she the victim of a possible serial killer/s of children who has recently come to light in relation to this case? Does an unknown and as yet (I think) unidentified partner of the possible serial killer still have her? And what was all that leaked stuff about evidence of death scent by the beach, whatever became of that? "

I don't believe Von Aesch was a serial killer. I believe he may have been a procurer of children for clients of diverse bents, pedophilia being one of them. The man who was shot may or may not have been his partner, and may or may not have been the killer of Von Aesch. From what I've read Von Aesch may not have killed himself. If Van Aesch abducted Madeleine, then she is already out of the country, most likely, and still alive.

The above is where I'm leaning at the moment and I'm not convinced Madeleine is dead.

I'm also not convinced her parents are innocent and she isn't somewhere in a make-shift grave wrapped in a blanket. It's the timing that's off, no matter how many hours they may have had, the opportunity just doesn't seem to have been there. The parents say and do some very odd things. Truth, however, is oftimes stranger than fiction, and maybe the McCanns are that odd. I'm a bit odd myself and can't imagine how I'd be perceived if my child disappeared. I can't even imagine what the first words out of my mouth would be, probably - "Er, I can't find the kid," or something equally imbecilic that would go down in the annals of infanticide as a dead give away of guilt.

In a nutshell, at the moment I'm leaning toward abduction by Von Aesch & Co, with a jaundiced eye still on the McCanns.

 

[docwho3]

. . .I don't believe Von Aesch was a serial killer. I believe he may have been a procurer of children for clients of diverse bents, pedophilia being one of them. The man who was shot may or may not have been his partner, and may or may not have been the killer of Von Aesch. From what I've read Von Aesch may not have killed himself. If Van Aesch abducted Madeleine, then she is already out of the country, most likely, and still alive. . .

I have termed him a possible serial killer of children because a news report I read mentioned something about him being looked at in relation to the deaths of 5 or more children in the past, at least I think that's what I read. If his last victim was found alive somewhere I might buy into the kidnap and keep alive possibility easier but the last one was found dead. At the time those were details of the story that did not seem as terribly important as his possible connection to this case and so I did not read that part slowly and carefully as usual. Other than that possible serial killer status I think your thoughts seem pretty reasonable. I will add that I think there may yet be another (as yet unknown to us) person involved with him as there is still a missing gun that someone allegedly made off with.

. . .The above is where I'm leaning at the moment and I'm not convinced Madeleine is dead. . .

I am willing to go along with her being alive but how does the cadaver dog evidence fit with that?

. . .I'm also not convinced her parents are innocent and she isn't somewhere in a make-shift grave wrapped in a blanket. It's the timing that's off, no matter how many hours they may have had, the opportunity just doesn't seem to have been there. . .

The timing bothers me too but I suppose their every move may not have been watched 24/7 as we might think, especially after 23 to 25 days into the case when not so much suspicion was yet focused on them.

Note: I am not saying everything I have considered about this possibility at this time due to lack of evidence. I want to be fair (as I think we all want to be fair.)

Edited to add: Has anyone looked at news reports of the parents activities at 23,24,and 25 and 26 days into the case?

And if they rented the car then would they have immediately moved the body or waited longer? I think that later they had too much media attention on them to dump a body but maybe not.

 

[Jolynna]

Do you get a petsitter for your cats when you go on vacation?

Absolutely.

 

[AfterMidnight]

I have termed him a possible serial killer of children because a news report I read mentioned something about him being looked at in relation to the deaths of 5 or more children in the past, at least I think that's what I read. If his last victim was found alive somewhere I might buy into the kidnap and keep alive possibility easier but the last one was found dead. At the time those were details of the story that did not seem as terribly important as his possible connection to this case and so I did not read that part slowly and carefully as usual. Other than that possible serial killer status I think your thoughts seem pretty reasonable. I will add that I think there may yet be another (as yet unknown to us) person involved with him as there is still a missing gun that someone allegedly made off with.

I agree another person may be involved, and I'm toying with the idea of the reward collector.

I am willing to go along with her being alive but how does the cadaver dog evidence fit with that?

Cadaver dogs are not 100% accurate. Even if they were, the dogs cannot tell us if it was Madeleine's cadaver, another murder victim's cadaver about whom the police have no clue (Portugal was a dictatorship for many years), or the scent of a cadavar from Kate's clothing. Granted, the last one is a bit of a stretch, but if these dogs are as good as everyone is saying, they should hit on any scent of death.

As for the timing, well, I have to go back and read the older stuff where they took Maddie out for dinner and were viewed as "suspicious" for that, then read the new stuff, and try to fit in a party none of the McCanns went to and align Gerry's playing golf, and them getting to the Tapas Bar at a reasonable time and. . .and. . .and...

 

[Jolynna]

docwho3 your posts are great and full of excellent points.

I do not think Madeline is alive. If the evidence is as presented I think the parents did it. But, some of the media is saying the news is inaccurate.

I think the parents are definitely guilty of criminal negligence. But, the news reports are so conflicting, I don't know if they did more than that or not.

jmo

 

[hcc2007]

I have a question for all of you. Why are some so emotionally involved? .

Aftermidnight, that's a good question. For me, there is definitely the pathos of a missing child. If you've ever been a parent, you relate to that intense need to protect them, and can relate to the horror of having failed to do so. Most of us have had the experience of a 30-second lapse of attention in the store, and your 3-year-old wanders into another aisle or even hides under a rack of clothes. Adrenaline just shoots from your toes up through the top of our head.

There's a second component, too, which has come out along with the suspicions around the parents. People don't like to be manipulated. The thought that this couple might've been playing me along, and the whole world, and dishonestly stealing the money, time, and love of thousands of sincere people, all to protect themselves? It can make one furious.

There's also a thread running through this of class, race, privilege, arrogance. I think many of us have, implicitly, an awareness that were OUR children to go missing, David Beckham would not be speaking out on our behalf.

So ... there are three elements to consider. There may be more.

 

[CaliKid]

Edited to add: Has anyone looked at news reports of the parents activities at 23,24,and 25 and 26 days into the case?

Would Gerry's blogs do?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53316

Day 22 and 23- 05/25-26/2007
Yesterday was relatively quiet although we did meet the British ambassador and the senior British Police Officer who has been working here in Portugal on the case. This was a productive meeting. There was a flurry of activity amongst the media here stating the family was openly critical of the Portuguese policed which was not true. We did our best to dampen this down but a couple of papers carried stories with our ‘frustration’ with the investigation rather than what we said it was frustrating that 3 weeks down the line we still have not got Madeleine back. This would be the case which ever country we were in. Some of you may have noticed that Sean and Amelie did manage to squeeze in a hair cut!

Today was extremely busy and tiring. We met with our press officer Clarence Mitchell, to discuss strategy for the fortcoming interviews. Kate attended a luncheon in aid of International Missing Child day and John, my brother, attended a similar event in London. After this John and Brian Kennedy, Kate’s uncle, who are both directors of Madeleine’s fund appointed an interim fund manager. We are now actively looking for a campaign manager who will be needed once our government press officer disappears.

The interviews were our first for TV and we were happy how they went. We did 10 min interviews for Sky, BBC, ITV, Portuguese TV/radio and one for the press association. A shorter interview with GM TV will be shown on Monday morning along with stuff from our fabulous web team. The interviewers were very kind but did not shirk from asking us some extremely difficult questions. We answered them all and although painful will allow us to move on in our search for Madeleine. Importantly, shortly after our interviews finished the Portuguese Police held a press conference and gave details of man they would like to interview who was seen carrying a child on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance. We have not had a transcript of what was said but this is an encouraging development and hopefully will result in further calls to the police with information from people who were in Praia da Luz around the time of Madeleine’s abduction. We remain very optimistic that the criminal investigation will lead to Madeleine’s safe return but we need everyone to be alert and vigilant to any suspicious activity.

Tomorrow will be a family day. We are doing a photo-shoot with the twins for the Sunday newspapers in the morning but will involve stuff that we want to do with them anyway. We also need to recharge our batteries after what has been a very busy week.


Day 24- 05/27/2007 (Sunday)
Strange day after all the activity during the week. Kate and I started off with an early morning run to the the top of the nearby cliffs. Sean and Amelie were back in kids club and went swimming again. The rest of us attended mass which was very emotional as a priest from RAF Lossiemouth was visiting and further prayers were said for Madeleine. Father Zee-Manuel has also rigged up a powerpoint display projecting a large photograph of Madeleine on to the wall, which he is very proud of and reminds us of the beautiful little girl we are missing so terribly.

There have been some requests for more information ‘about Madeleine’ and this section will be updated very soon. We will also be releasing a very short video of Madeleine taken at the Airport on the day we left for Portugal, Saturday 28 April. Sean and Amelie went to the beach this afternoon with mummy, auntie Trisha and Anne but daddy stayed in the apartment catching up on campaign e-mails, making calls and liaising with Clarence our press officer. The resort is much busier again as it is half-term and there are definitely less journalists here. Many of them have been here since the beginning and are making this journey with us.

The couple of Sunday articles we read did not cover much of what we talked about and seemed to get some of the other stuff wrong! We stated that Sean and Amelie are sleeping in our room (in separate cots) because of other family staying with us and that we were trying to treat them as normal and not be overprotective. This came out that we were so protective we have to have them sleeping in our bed! These inaccuracies are not important in our search for Madeleine and the next phase is being planned currently.

It looks like our planned trips to other European cities will start off in Rome after we learned today that the Pope has been following Madeleine’s abduction closely. There is a reasonable chance we may get a chance to meet the Pontiff and that he will pray for Madeleine. Such a visit would generate huge publicity regarding the family campaign to find Madeleine and will also give Kate and I a great spiritual lift. It will also raise the awareness of missing and abused children generally. We continue to pray that someone will provide the key information that leads us to Madeleine.


Day 25- 05/28/2007
Confirmation arrived this evening that we are to attend the Vatican and a service with The Pope. It is likely we will be seated in the front row and may have an opportunity to speak with the Holy Father and ask for prayers for Madeleine. This is a hugely important visit both personally, for Kate and I, but also for the wider campaign to publicise Madeleine’s disappearance. The trip has been facilitated through Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor and we will be receiving assistance from the British Embassy whilst in Rome. On this occasion because of the short notice and the relatively early time of the service we have accepted the kind offer of the use of Sir Philip Green’s personal jet, which will help get us home quickly after our Papal visit to see the twins before their bedtime. We will be accompanied by a small group of media who are still with us in Praia da Luz and, as usual all the material will be available to all the British press and broadcasters equally. For all trips we are assessing whether commercial flights can get us to our destination and back to Portugal quickly. This will NOT be a Tour- it is a series of very brief visits with the specific aim of raising awareness and we aim to get back here as quickly as possible.

We have decided that for the majority of trips it will not be practicable, or fair, to take Sean and Amelie with us. They have an established routine which we do not want to disrupt and will be looked after by very close family. Tonight for the first time they have gone to sleep in their own single beds, rather than cots, now that another two of our family have gone home. We were planning to turn their cots at home into beds after our 1 week holiday but obviously this has been delayed with Madeleine’s abduction. We have been in Praia da Luz for over 4 weeks and Sean and Amelie’s development from toddlers to little boy and girl continues. Madeleine will really notice the difference when she sees them!

Some of you may have seen on the news the huge inflatable billboard which has travelled all the way from the West of Scotland to Portugal which will be used near busy roads/motorways to keep Madeleine’s disappearance high profile. We had a brief chat with Chris and Les, who drove almost non-stop from Glasgow to get here. The extraordinary length ordinary people are going to help us is truly overwhelming. We thank everyone for their efforts, no matter how small, and we know this will make a difference in our search for Madeleine.


Day 26 - 05/29/2007
We have been preoccupied with preparation for our audience with the Pope tomoorow morning. This morning was spent acquiring some appropriate dress for the meeting since we had only holiday clothes with us in Portugal. Clarence has been inundated with calls regarding the visit to Rome and done most of the organisation behind the scenes.

It has been very difficult to leave Sean and Amelie but it is only for one nght and we will be back to see them before bedtime tomorrow. Trish and Sandy (Madeleine’s Godparents) who have been with us in Portugal since Day 2 are looking after them and we were surprised to hear they were tucked up in bed by 7.30pm- they must like their new beds!

The flight to Rome passed extremely quickly and some footage was taken for TV. We did a couple of short interviews for the British and Portuguesae press about our feelings regarding the trip. Under normal circumstances we would be extremely excited about meeting the Pope, but as we are here as a result of Madeleine’s abduction the circumstances are very different. We expect to receive a great spiritual lift, especially if we get to speak to the Pontiff personally. After the audience we will be holding a short press conference in the British Embassy to the Vatican to talk about our campaign to publicise Madeleine’s disappearance and of course, our audience with the Pope.

Frncis Campbell, the British ambassador to the Holy See, and his staff picked us at the airport and brought us directly to the Embassy residences near the city centre. We have been made to feel completely at ease and almost as if we are part of a small family here, which has helped ease our tangible nerves, not unsurprising given the importance of tomorrow’s meeting. We are now retiring and will be saying our usual prayers for Madeleine’s safe return

 

[docwho3]

Would Gerry's blogs do? . . .

I will pore over this info carefully when time permits to see if any of the stuff can be corroborated independently. Thank you. I am also wishing to see what news coverage was available about them on those dates, if any news articles were actually available on those dates. We need to know if any news hounds were actually dogging their footsteps at that time and if so what do they report and does it square with the blog.

I am careful to also look for evidence of activities provided by someone other than the suspect being investigated.

Thanks again for taking the time to post all that info.

 

[AfterMidnight]

Yes, thank you, CaliKid, for all the work. I also want to thank Colomom for her many links. I don't think I properly appreciated her before.

I believe we may be on the right track here. This is the kind of sleuthing we need, using the facts that we have and checking, checking, and cross checking, not fighting with each other. After all, I know we all have the same goal in mind - FIND MADELEINE.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

No offense meant but: I know where you are going with this and I am not taking any bait tonight. I have spoken my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Emotions can be strong but we must use care. Sometimes you have an unpleasant thing happen and you have to be able to not let the emotion you feel cause you to err.

Thank you very much for not taking the bait. I saw the potential set up too and am happy that you took the high road!!!!!

 

[AfterMidnight]

Aftermidnight, that's a good question. For me, there is definitely the pathos of a missing child. If you've ever been a parent, you relate to that intense need to protect them, and can relate to the horror of having failed to do so. Most of us have had the experience of a 30-second lapse of attention in the store, and your 3-year-old wanders into another aisle or even hides under a rack of clothes. Adrenaline just shoots from your toes up through the top of our head.

I'm a parent of 6 and grandparent of 14. If this were one of my children or, even worse, grandchildren, I'd rip the head off the perp without anesthesia or societal blessings. But Madeleine isn't one of my family. She is a little child to whom something bad (no matter how you slice it) has happened. If I were standing next to her and someone tried to harm her, they'd have me to deal with. I may be old, but it wouldn't be pretty.
Madeleine, however, is not standing next to me, nor was she ever. She is a child of another family who disappeared from another country with laws differing from ours. I cannot hate anyone because I don't know who done what. I cannot become emotionally involved because I believe clear heads are needed to prevail. I further believe one needs to keep an open mind because much of the time things aren't what they appear to be on the surface.

There's a second component, too, which has come out along with the suspicions around the parents. People don't like to be manipulated. The thought that this couple might've been playing me along, and the whole world, and dishonestly stealing the money, time, and love of thousands of sincere people, all to protect themselves? It can make one furious.

Manipulation is an evil thing, no matter who does it. Problem is, we don't know who's doing the manipulating, and there are several candidates.

There's also a thread running through this of class, race, privilege, arrogance. I think many of us have, implicitly, an awareness that were OUR children to go missing, David Beckham would not be speaking out on our behalf.

True statement I'm sure. However, hasn't it always been thus? In the past few years I've learned, once again, things aren't always what they seem. Class distinction is deeper, more insidious than most would be able to comprehend. I can understand the anger if this is what's seen, but even so, there IS a possibility the parents are innocent and all the anger and rage are for naught except a nervous breakdown. In short, I think more would be accomplished with a cold, dogged detachment.

So ... there are three elements to consider. There may be more.

I THOROUGHLY agree with that statement. NICE POST!

 

[SleuthMom]

Aftermidnight:

Cadaver dogs are not 100% accurate. Even if they were, the dogs cannot tell us if it was Madeleine's cadaver, another murder victim's cadaver about whom the police have no clue (Portugal was a dictatorship for many years), or the scent of a cadavar from Kate's clothing. Granted, the last one is a bit of a stretch, but if these dogs are as good as everyone is saying, they should hit on any scent of death.

That's the thing. Even though the cadaver dogs cannot distinguish victims and they just smell "death". They hit on: The Mc Cann's apartment where Maddie was staying, the Cuddle Cat, Kate's clothing, Mc Cann's car keys, Kate's Bible... Wow, as much as I really hate to think about these parents involved with Maddie's disappearance, does not seem just a "coincidence".

 

[christine2448]

Wow, docwho, that is a lot for both of you to bear. Blessings and prayers for a continued remission for your wife.

Amen to that! Docwho, thank you for sharing in such detail. I am sorry for both of you, sincerely.

 

[docwho3]

docwho3 your posts are great and full of excellent points.

I do not think Madeline is alive. If the evidence is as presented I think the parents did it. But, some of the media is saying the news is inaccurate.

I think the parents are definitely guilty of criminal negligence. But, the news reports are so conflicting, I don't know if they did more than that or not.

jmo

Thank you for the kind words. It seems you have an open mind about the case and that is good. I have no preference as to case outcome. I just want the truth. I suspect most of us here feel that way


Note to readers who expressed kindness to me: Thank you all for the kind words. If I do not respond to each person individually in a post it is only because I do not want to be hogging the boards with so many posts and not because I am ungrateful. I already post alot the way it is

Thank you all.

 

[Pinkhammer]

Yes! I don't have cats ,but I have a pet sitter when I go to a conference for five days & I call twice a day & end the conversation singing to Mocha (my 16 month GPS.) who licks the phone.
Quite seriously the young children or pets who depend on us for affection & protection & nourishment & comfort cannot be insecure in that all these things may suddenly stop. That, I think is why children act out. I don't believe in smothering, but parenting is a serious responsibility.

Of course, I was pointing out that many who think it was OK for the McCanns to leave THREE babies alone for an entire evening in a strange place would faint at the idea of leaving a beloved pet alone and uncared for while they were out having their fun.

We owe good care and affection to our children and our pets AT ALL TIMES, not just when it is convenient.

 

[pinto]

I think understand what you meant. I admit that the way the sentence was worded could easily be misread and misunderstood though. If I understood you correctly I agree with the sentiment you expressed. People need to try to separate their anger over the negligence issues from the issue of guilt or innocence of the actual crime of murder or kidnap or other criminal involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine. And if possible we need to try tamp down the strong emotions a bit as that can skew our thinking to the point that we might miss important clues if they do pop up to be noticed.

At the same time I also understand, as someone recently pointed out to me, that people are still human beings and in a case like this emotions often run high in spite of best efforts.

Edited to add: I acknowledge that it is also true that not all people that think the parents might be guilty of a crime are thinking that based solely on emotion. There has been a fairly good amount of evidence reported in the news. Whether that evidence is solid or not remains to be seen but it certainly has sounded very damning in its scope and nature so people have some reasons for thinking the parents might be guilty of a crime.

Yes, you got it, thank you.

And I understand about the additional evidence ... but really, in the absence of a predisposition to believe the McCanns "did it," none of that evidence is terribly compelling -- that was the second part of my post. It's all ridiculously unknowable right now.

However, as the rest of this thread shows, I think there has been another pendulum swing back toward the middle .... Carry on.

 

[IrishMist]

Of course, I was pointing out that many who think it was OK for the McCanns to leave THREE babies alone for an entire evening in a strange place would faint at the idea of leaving a beloved pet alone and uncared for while they were out having their fun.

We owe good care and affection to our children and our pets AT ALL TIMES, not just when it is convenient.

I have not seen this ANYWHERE! (Sorry about the caps. I'm not shouting, I'm in SHOCK! ) In fact, what I've seen has been the complete opposite! Are you talking about a different board, or something?

 

[Texana]

Thank you for the kind words. It seems you have an open mind about the case and that is good. I have no preference as to case outcome. I just want the truth. I suspect most of us here feel that way


Note to readers who expressed kindness to me: Thank you all for the kind words. If I do not respond to each person individually in a post it is only because I do not want to be hogging the boards with so many posts and not because I am ungrateful. I already post alot the way it is

Thank you all.

Doc, I posted about your wife the other night and the server was too busy-- I am sorry to hear about her condition. Your actions and attitude are an inspiration to me and many others, I am sure.