Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[ILikeToBendPages]

andreww, I'm not looking for a fight, especially with you. But I will ask you straight out: who do you think did the abuse and why?

Don Paugh who babysat JonBenet and Burke in December? Would be one I'd put in the mix. There were rumors about Pasty and Pam and possible molestation. And Nedra Paugh's terrible comment about the size of Burke's penis, makes you wonder. It was so crude for a grandmother to say.

He'd fit in the dictionary with the page folded to the word incest. Pasty might of been looking at what it was. If it was different if a grandfather (or son) than a father. And that would be a reason for the final insult to JonBenet's body, to hide evidence of it. Pasty might of known, but didn't know how far it had gone, and tried to hide what he could of done.

It doesn't take long to molest a child. Just a few minutes here and there.

Another thought - many children that have been sexualized or molested start masturbating. That could account for the chronic infections. My granddaughter got to watch her mother have sex with a neighbor,and she and her three year old sister video taped it with a Barbie camcorder. She started groping boys in the lunch line and on the playground after that. She was six years old. I still hate her mother.

After much thought about Pasty and her faith, I think Pasty placed JonBenet's hands in prayer over her heart. The loose nooses were to keep them in place. Otherwise they serve no real purpose.

 

[Tadpole12]

After much thought about Pasty and her faith, I think Pasty placed JonBenet's hands in prayer over her heart. The loose nooses were to keep them in place. Otherwise they serve no real purpose.

Heyya ILTBP.
Ya, 'the hands laid on the breast in the form of a cross.'
Trying to visualize.
'A single loop of white cord was around the right wrist, tied on top of the sleeve but so loosely the doctor easily slid it free. There were 15 1/2 inches between that loop and a loop on the other end, which once apparently had bound the left wrist.' - ACR

 

[Madeleine74]

The tied up hands were part of the staging to make it look like an intruder tied up JBR. Obviously it was done after she was unconscious. Everything that happened in that basement was all staging. The tape over her mouth, the garrotte, all of it. FBI behavioral unit determined this.

 

[Madeleine74]

From what I've read, it would have been difficult for the parents to know the extent of the head injury unless they caused it, which I doubt. Even then, it would be hard to know just how bad the head injury was from looking at JonBenet. I say that because even the folks doing the autopsy were surprised about what they found there. I think the parents instincts would have been to call for medical help and cover up what needed to be covered up. So that makes me think that JonBenet was dead, and very obviously dead, by the time the parents found her.

According to a couple books I read, JBR was alive for up to 90 minutes after the head trauma. She was likely unconscious and it's possible her parents thought she was dead, but she did not die immediately. The garrotte is what ended her life, although the head trauma would have eventually. She was not deceased when the parents found her as they created the garrotte.

 

[AndHence]

Once you accept that staging was part of the crime scene, there are only two possibilities. 1) The Ramseys staged the crime scene to point away from familial involvement or 2) a master criminal 'staged a staging' to make it look like the Ramseys killed their child and then covered it up. The former is far more probable than the latter scenario.

 

[UKGuy]

According to a couple books I read, JBR was alive for up to 90 minutes after the head trauma. She was likely unconscious and it's possible her parents thought she was dead, but she did not die immediately. The garrotte is what ended her life, although the head trauma would have eventually. She was not deceased when the parents found her as they created the garrotte.

Madeleine74,
How do we know that the person who whacked JonBenet on the head is not the same person who asphyxiated her?


.

 

[CherCher]

Once you accept that staging was part of the crime scene, there are only two possibilities. 1) The Ramseys staged the crime scene to point away from familial involvement or 2) a master criminal 'staged a staging' to make it look like the Ramseys killed their child and then covered it up. The former is far more probable than the latter scenario.

There are people who believe that. (scenario #2) And they also believe that the RN writer faked PR's handwriting. When anyone tells them that the note was not in PR's normal handwriting, they say that was part of the plan. To disguise her handwriting. Unbelievable.

 

[Madeleine74]

Madeleine74,
How do we know that the person who whacked JonBenet on the head is not the same person who asphyxiated her?

.

We don't. However, the science doesn't change. JBR was still alive after the head injury and for as long as 90 min after. And, for those who may not realize, there was no intruder. Zero, zip. none. Whatever happened to JBR happened within the family that night/morning.

 

[UKGuy]

We don't. However, the science doesn't change. JBR was still alive after the head injury and for as long as 90 min after. And, for those who may not realize, there was no intruder. Zero, zip. none. Whatever happened to JBR happened within the family that night/morning.

Madeleine74,
You bet there was no intruder, but hey if you are going to stage then you need a mythical intruder. Now on this garrote thing, do you think the ligature plus paintbrush was applied at the same time, i.e. one event, or that JonBenet was asphyxiated with the ligature and the paintbrush added later?

Also anyone any thoughts on why there was roughly a 90 minute interval between the head bash and asphyxiation?

Could the person who delivered the blow to JonBenet's head be indulging in some assumed postmortem behaviour?

.

 

[DeDee]

Madeleine74,
You bet there was no intruder, but hey if you are going to stage then you need a mythical intruder. Now on this garrote thing, do you think the ligature plus paintbrush was applied at the same time, i.e. one event, or that JonBenet was asphyxiated with the ligature and the paintbrush added later?

Also anyone any thoughts on why there was roughly a 90 minute interval between the head bash and asphyxiation?

Could the person who delivered the blow to JonBenet's head be indulging in some assumed postmortem behaviour?

.

While almost anything is possible, what if the interval between the head gash and asphyxiation was due to being hit while at the White's party and being strangled when she got home? Her system did not show her having eaten the cracked crab only the pineapple that I think she ate before leaving home for the party. I think she died much earlier than 1:30am onward. The chilly basement kept her body from decomposing rapidly. The date on her tombstone lists her death date as Dec 25, 1996 not Dec 26, 1996.

I don't think a young boy would break a paint brush to make a garrote so that blows BDI.

The paint stick that forms the garrote, and was also used to make the bleeding in her vagina (?), makes the crime appear much more sinister whether it was intentionally tied to the string during asphyxiation or added to the rope by tying it on later.

 

[BoldBear]

This is dull. Understanding how boilers operate is one of the many hats I wear.

...The chilly basement kept her body from decomposing rapidly. The date on her tombstone lists her death date as Dec 25, 1996 not Dec 26, 1996....

With the type of heating used, the basement would remain relatively warm and sometimes hot. They had a boiler system that would pipe hot water throughout the house. Sometimes they'd crack the window open in the train room. There was the open vent/pipe in the boiler room. It is necessary for this type of heating system to vent lots of air from the outside. It wouldn't, however, transfer much cold to the other rooms with the boiler running. The wine room would remain cool, but not cold. It would be noticeably cooler from the other rooms in the basement, but it wouldn't be freezing.

This is all based on my understanding that this home had a boiler type system. The large metal vent/pipe allows the boiler to take-in plenty of air to completely combust the natural gas. If the furnace didn't take-in enough air, the furnace would produce soot which is unburnt fuel. It will choke the furnace, can create fires and is potentially explosive.

* * *

This is one of the problems I have with the coroner. It's my understanding that body core temperature drops at a consistent rate. I don't know the variables that can change it, but it's basically constant. In this case, you have a body that was put in the living room. You know the living room's temperature and how long the body was there. You also know the wine room's temperature. Had the coroner had not waited so long to get to the site, they could have produced a more accurate time of death.

On a side note,

I live in Denver and was here when riots broke-out at CU some time after the murder. I blamed the students for being unruly and never put any of the responsibility on the police department. After reading ST's book, I question my assumptions. It's quite possible that the riots could have been stopped or contained had the police department had proper training.

Sorry for the rambling.

 

[UKGuy]

Tadpole12 ;

I find the PM interface difficult to use and its not processing my reply, so I'll do that here. Thanks for the link but its 404 for me, probably because I'm outside the US.

I never used to, but now consider a postmortem sexual assault as a possible explanation for JonBenet's internal injuries, its the scope and extent of the staging that is now in question, i.e. who did what?

If you think about the scope of the parents involvement, it must have been limited given the forensic evidence left behind?

Also if the case were either PDI or JDI or some combination thereof, you might expect more refined staging, especially on the forensics side, since given the time available, the use of a washing machine and tumble dryer is perfectly feasable, and nobody would be any the wiser?


.

 

[UKGuy]

This is dull. Understanding how boilers operate is one of the many hats I wear.



With the type of heating used, the basement would remain relatively warm and sometimes hot. They had a boiler system that would pipe hot water throughout the house. Sometimes they'd crack the window open in the train room. There was the open vent/pipe in the boiler room. It is necessary for this type of heating system to vent lots of air from the outside. It wouldn't, however, transfer much cold to the other rooms with the boiler running. The wine room would remain cool, but not cold. It would be noticeably cooler from the other rooms in the basement, but it wouldn't be freezing.

This is all based on my understanding that this home had a boiler type system. The large metal vent/pipe allows the boiler to take-in plenty of air to completely combust the natural gas. If the furnace didn't take-in enough air, the furnace would produce soot which is unburnt fuel. It will choke the furnace, can create fires and is potentially explosive.

* * *

This is one of the problems I have with the coroner. It's my understanding that body core temperature drops at a consistent rate. I don't know the variables that can change it, but it's basically constant. In this case, you have a body that was put in the living room. You know the living room's temperature and how long the body was there. You also know the wine room's temperature. Had the coroner had not waited so long to get to the site, they could have produced a more accurate time of death.

On a side note,

I live in Denver and was here when riots broke-out at CU some time after the murder. I blamed the students for being unruly and never put any of the responsibility on the police department. After reading ST's book, I question my assumptions. It's quite possible that the riots could have been stopped or contained had the police department had proper training.

Sorry for the rambling.

BoldBear,

The wine room would remain cool, but not cold. It would be noticeably cooler from the other rooms in the basement, but it wouldn't be freezing.

With no boiler present and an ambient temperature about 70 degrees Fahrenheit rigor mortis sets in.

It's my understanding that body core temperature drops at a consistent rate.

Depending on your source it approximately drops by 1.5 degrees per hour until it reaches the ambient surrounding temperature.

Had the coroner had not waited so long to get to the site, they could have produced a more accurate time of death.

The coroners TOD was always going to be an estimate and open to challenge by expert witness in court.

JonBenet's legal TOD would be when she was found, as distinct from her physiological TOD which possibly only her killer knows.

That the pineapple left in JonBenet's digestive tract was only partially digested suggests a cut off point for her death and the average temperature drop should allow for a reasonable estimate?

.

 

[Madeleine74]

JBR was already in rigor when found. Rigor progresses at a fixed rate. It's decomp that is variable. Trying to guess what the temp of the basement or living room might have been in an exercise in futility. Whatever it was, it was. JBR was killed close to midnight, according to the level of rigor and the fact that Detective Arndt could already smell decomp. That's been stated in numerous books about the case.

 

[CorallaroC]

While almost anything is possible, what if the interval between the head gash and asphyxiation was due to being hit while at the White's party and being strangled when she got home? Her system did not show her having eaten the cracked crab only the pineapple that I think she ate before leaving home for the party. I think she died much earlier than 1:30am onward. The chilly basement kept her body from decomposing rapidly. The date on her tombstone lists her death date as Dec 25, 1996 not Dec 26, 1996.

I don't think a young boy would break a paint brush to make a garrote so that blows BDI.

The paint stick that forms the garrote, and was also used to make the bleeding in her vagina (?), makes the crime appear much more sinister whether it was intentionally tied to the string during asphyxiation or added to the rope by tying it on later.

Regarding the possibility that JB had been injured to her head prior to arriving home, possibly at the W's party (or even before that!) has always crossed my mind. Of course the R's story (parents) is that she was totally "zonked" when they arrived home, and stayed that way. They say she was carried upstairs, undressed then dressed for bed and never woke up. The R's stuck to that story.

Yet we have a public/tv interview with SS (maybe the only real witness, but maybe just a R-bulldog) saying on national tv that the family appeared perfectly normal when they dropped off Christmas presents and chatted a bit with her (SS) on their way home from the party. Ok, so.... how easy is it to explain a sleeping child around 9pm on Christmas Day? Did SS specifically say that she saw or spoke to JB specifically? No.

Could the head injury have happened much earlier? IMO, yes.

OK so, prior to SS, do we have any testimony other than (R) about JB's actions prior to that? Only that she and the W's daughter were making toy "necklace beads" while sitting on the floor with FW (and maybe JR?) during the party?

OK, prior to going to the W's party what do we have? Other than R's testimony? Well, IIRC only a report from neighbor mother who said that her daughters told her that JBR was "sick" and not able to come out any play on the afternoon of Christmas.

Ok, as for the medical examiners' (note plural) estimation of 90 minutes between head blow and asphy. from the garrote which definitively ended JBR's life - is that 90 minutes meant to imply MINIMUM time interval? or maximum. I dare say it is meant to imply minimum. As is shown by many examples of TBI resulting in death, the time interval from injury to death is widely variable. It might not be apparent to anyone, not even the victim, the severity of the injury. Wish we didn't need to speculate about all this. My feeling is that much more definitive information was provided at the time of JBR's death, we simply don't have access to that info.

Small disclaimer here, I truly do not believe that the W family had anything to do with the murder or coverup. For all we know, and because of the secrecy around the "party" (no photos provided etc) there may have been many suspicious things others noticed about JBR prior to the R's leaving the party and heading for home. Think about it!

 

[UKGuy]

CorallaroC,

BR said JonBenet left the car and walked into the R's house. Then we have the pineapple snack, i.e. did JonBenet snack pineapple while enduring a head injury?

.

 

[Madeleine74]

Up to 90 minutes is the maximum time that was estimated to have occurred between head blow and death. It was during that time all the staging was done, the garrotte, the rope, etc, etc. No one involved in investigating the case has ever suggested the blow on the head came before the Ramsey's got home from the Xmas party. That doesn't make sense. Whatever happened, happened inside the home, beginning to end. Besides, JBR had undigested pineapple in her stomach, eaten shortly before or within an hour of being incapacitated. Had the head blow occurred before they arrived home, then how would an unconscious JBR have eaten pineapple? There was none at the party, that was verified, the only pineapple was found in the Ramsey home, a bowl out on the counter.

There are many attempts to try and create elaborate scenarios around this case when the truth is probably something very simple and straightforward, albeit tragic. What I think is that it was as an accident and then turned into a staged scene.

One possible scenario is that BR could have hit JBR over the head--they might have been in the basement playing with toys or JBR playing with BR's trainset. The marks mistakenly thought as being made by a stun gun, happened to perfectly match the end of the pull-apart train tracks from BR's train set. Perhaps BR was enraged at JBR for playing with his toys and took a golf club that was already right there and not in a bag with the other clubs, to hit his sister with it, causing that skull fracture that only bled internally. The parents, who were not in the basement at the time of the head blow, then panic and go into coverup mode, big time, thinking their son will be taken away from them forever. They already lost one child and didn't want to lose Burke. They don't know that a 9 yr old child will not face murder charges or be convicted.

That's one of the theories one of the lead investigators thinks could have happened, and it explains a lot of Patsy's weird behaviors as well as a statement she uttered while heavily sedated and being comforted by a friend, "... it was an accident, wasn't supposed to happen." The Ramsey's were hellbent on getting Burke out of that house and away from being questioned by police and they thwarted every attempt to have information about Burke's behaviors and psychiatric records be looked at by investigators. I never considered BR as a suspect before, but after reading a book on the case, I could see how that might have been possible.

As for the sexual abuse, no idea who that was, but the evidence from the M.E. is that there were prior injuries to JBR, not just that one night. What is clear is that was one screwed up family, no matter how much money they made or how perfect they looked from the outside.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Up to 90 minutes is the maximum time that was estimated to have occurred between head blow and death. It was during that time all the staging was done, the garrotte, the rope, etc, etc. No one involved in investigating the case has ever suggested the blow on the head came before the Ramsey's got home from the Xmas party. That doesn't make sense. Whatever happened, happened inside the home, beginning to end. Besides, JBR had undigested pineapple in her stomach, eaten shortly before or within an hour of being incapacitated. Had the head blow occurred before they arrived home, then how would an unconscious JBR have eaten pineapple? There was none at the party, that was verified, the only pineapple was found in the Ramsey home, a bowl out on the counter.

There are many attempts to try and create elaborate scenarios around this case when the truth is probably something very simple and straightforward, albeit tragic. What I think is that it was as an accident and then turned into a staged scene.

One possible scenario is that BR could have hit JBR over the head--they might have been in the basement playing with toys or JBR playing with BR's trainset. The marks mistakenly thought as being made by a stun gun, happened to perfectly match the end of the pull-apart train tracks from BR's train set. Perhaps BR was enraged at JBR for playing with his toys and took a golf club that was already right there and not in a bag with the other clubs, to hit his sister with it, causing that skull fracture that only bled internally. The parents, who were not in the basement at the time of the head blow, then panic and go into coverup mode, big time, thinking their son will be taken away from them forever. They already lost one child and didn't want to lose Burke. They don't know that a 9 yr old child will not face murder charges or be convicted.

That's one of the theories one of the lead investigators thinks could have happened, and it explains a lot of Patsy's weird behaviors as well as a statement she uttered while heavily sedated and being comforted by a friend, "... it was an accident, wasn't supposed to happen." The Ramsey's were hellbent on getting Burke out of that house and away from being questioned by police and they thwarted every attempt to have information about Burke's behaviors and psychiatric records be looked at by investigators. I never considered BR as a suspect before, but after reading a book on the case, I could see how that might have been possible.

As for the sexual abuse, no idea who that was, but the evidence from the M.E. is that there were prior injuries to JBR, not just that one night. What is clear is that was one screwed up family, no matter how much money they made or how perfect they looked from the outside.

RSBM

AFAIK One doesn't necessarily lose consciousness after a blunt force trauma immediately. The effects may be apparent instantly or they may show up hours later. However JBR's broken skull appeared real severe.

 

[serenityinstars]

Madeleine74,
You bet there was no intruder, but hey if you are going to stage then you need a mythical intruder. Now on this garrote thing, do you think the ligature plus paintbrush was applied at the same time, i.e. one event, or that JonBenet was asphyxiated with the ligature and the paintbrush added later?

Also anyone any thoughts on why there was roughly a 90 minute interval between the head bash and asphyxiation?

Could the person who delivered the blow to JonBenet's head be indulging in some assumed postmortem behaviour?

.

I feel like the 90 min. gap is a crucial detail in determining who killed Jonbenet. 90 min. is a long time (imo) for someone to be with a child that appears dead, and is in fact nearly dead. I don't believe she was hit and then Patsy or John stayed with her 90 min. before strangling her.

Instead, I think the gap between head blow and strangulation points towards two separate people doing each. Burke doing the head blow, and being scared or not understanding the magnitude of her injuries, leaving her where she was and going to his bedroom to avoid responsibility. Then either feeling guilty and eventually telling his parents who upon finding Jonbenet appearing dead, staged the strangulation which ultimately killed her, or Patsy waking to take her to the bathroom, finding her and realizing what happened, then staging, likely with John's help.

(All simply my own personal opinion)

"You can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me." -Firefly

 

[UKGuy]

I feel like the 90 min. gap is a crucial detail in determining who killed Jonbenet. 90 min. is a long time (imo) for someone to be with a child that appears dead, and is in fact nearly dead. I don't believe she was hit and then Patsy or John stayed with her 90 min. before strangling her.

Instead, I think the gap between head blow and strangulation points towards two separate people doing each. Burke doing the head blow, and being scared or not understanding the magnitude of her injuries, leaving her where she was and going to his bedroom to avoid responsibility. Then either feeling guilty and eventually telling his parents who upon finding Jonbenet appearing dead, staged the strangulation which ultimately killed her, or Patsy waking to take her to the bathroom, finding her and realizing what happened, then staging, likely with John's help.

(All simply my own personal opinion)

"You can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me." -Firefly

serenityinstars,

Instead, I think the gap between head blow and strangulation points towards two separate people doing each.

The forensic evidence also suggests this, i.e. Patsy's fibers embedded into the ligature knotting and JR's fibers found inside the size-12's.

Some suggest the fibers have arrived via secondary transfer, sure but at those locations, particularly the size-12's, assuming they were clean on, there should be no fibers from JR at all.

On this point some think secondary transfer is enough to rule out primary transfer. I reckon its all about the probability of fibers arriving at those particular locations, i.e. other locations e.g. JonBenet's clothing well the probability might be high, but inside clean on size-12's or into the ligature knotting, thats also a pair of exclusive fiber deposits too, that should yield a low probability?

On this subject if you reckon the case is either RDI or IDI then thats 50% per theory, but if you rule out IDI due to a lack of evidence then RDI represents 100%, and individually each RDI yields 33%

Then either feeling guilty and eventually telling his parents

I've always wondered what happened here, since the staging looks kind of sloppy as if there was not a lot of time available, i.e. parents rise early for flight and find JonBenet? Bear in mind if JonBenet was killed at say 1 AM then thats four hours to say 5 AM, available for staging, yet the end result does not seem to reflect this, i.e. there was enough time to run the washing machine and tumble dryer minimally cleaning the bloodstained pink barbie nightgown, it was simply dumped into the wine-cellar.


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