Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[serenityinstars]

serenityinstars,



The forensic evidence also suggests this, i.e. Patsy's fibers embedded into the ligature knotting and JR's fibers found inside the size-12's.

Some suggest the fibers have arrived via secondary transfer, sure but at those locations, particularly the size-12's, assuming they were clean on, there should be no fibers from JR at all.

On this point some think secondary transfer is enough to rule out primary transfer. I reckon its all about the probability of fibers arriving at those particular locations, i.e. other locations e.g. JonBenet's clothing well the probability might be high, but inside clean on size-12's or into the ligature knotting, thats also a pair of exclusive fiber deposits too, that should yield a low probability?

Was it ever determined that the fibers on the size 12's did indeed come from John's sweater? Forgive me, I haven't read any of the books on the murder but intend to buy the book by James Kolar, and also "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town." Would you recommend any others or are these the ones with the most information?

From reading the forum I'm not entirely convinced the fibers said to be John's aren't from a towel with similar fibers used to clean the blood off Jonbenet. It could be from John's sweater, but if so that does bring up the question of why use your own clothing instead of a towel, implicating yourself if blood is found on your sweater? John may not have been thinking rationally, but I feel not using your own clothing to clean a dead body is obvious.

If they are fibers from John's sweater secondary transfer is a possibility. I don't think it impossible for the sweater fibers to have been on someone else's hands and been deposited on the clean size 12's that way. The same with Patsy's fibers in the knot. Although I find it less likely than primary transference I cannot dismiss the possibility. In my mind the fibers alone don't prove guilt. But taken together with other evidence (the heart on Jonbenet's hand, being wrapped in her blanket, being found by her father, certain behaviors and statements made by both parents etc.) do imply guilt.

On this subject if you reckon the case is either RDI or IDI then thats 50% per theory, but if you rule out IDI due to a lack of evidence then RDI represents 100%, and individually each RDI yields 33%

I wholly believe all 3 had some part in it. I'll go with your 33% figure with each having 33% of the blame.


I've always wondered what happened here, since the staging looks kind of sloppy as if there was not a lot of time available, i.e. parents rise early for flight and find JonBenet? Bear in mind if JonBenet was killed at say 1 AM then thats four hours to say 5 AM, available for staging, yet the end result does not seem to reflect this, i.e. there was enough time to run the washing machine and tumble dryer minimally cleaning the bloodstained pink barbie nightgown, it was simply dumped into the wine-cellar.

I think it occurred early on during the night because of the estimated time of death and the vast amount of clean-up and staging done. It does appear sloppy, but I attribute that to it being their first (and hopefully last) kidnapping-sex assault-murder staging. The whole thing would have taken a while and they were working within a limited timeframe, under emotions that probably hindered their thinking and ability to function normally. Time likely caught them unawares, having had enough time to do some things, but not enough time to complete everything.

Figure 1 1/2 hrs. for laundry, 1-2 hrs. to write the ransom note, cleaning, re-dressing, making the garrote, breaking the window, wiping down the flashlight, time to overcome the initial shock of finding their child dead/near death, time to formulate the plan- I think 4-5 hrs. accurately reflects the time needed for a sloppy yet somewhat completed staging. They did what they could and ditched the rest of the plan (assuming there was more to the plan).


.

(All simply my own personal opinion)

"You can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me." -Firefly

 

[serenityinstars]

Sorry that's not right, I am still figuring Tapatalk out. How do you reply to another's post in segments? I did not mean for my last reply to have been included in the persons post, like one big post. I meant to reply in segments so my answers would be distinguishable from the post I was replying to.

(All simply my own personal opinion)

"You can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me." -Firefly

 

[BoldBear]

With no boiler present and an ambient temperature about 70 degrees Fahrenheit rigor mortis sets in.
Depending on your source it approximately drops by 1.5 degrees per hour until it reaches the ambient surrounding temperature.
The coroners TOD was always going to be an estimate and open to challenge by expert witness in court.

I was replying to the idea that the wine room was freezing and that it changed the estimate for the time of death. I did not, however, assume that the 1.5 degrees per hour is a hard fact because I do not know how external temperature might change that number. I don't know what variables can change that means of determining the TOD.

As for the a coroner giving an estimate to the time of death, the statement that a coroner's TOD will always estimate the time of death is accurate, but misleading. The more information a coroner has, the more accurate the estimate will be. You're right. I did make an assumption here. My assumption was that a coroner can make a more accurate prediction about the time of death if they examine the body closer to the actual time of death. Was that assumption wrong?

 

[UKGuy]

I was replying to the idea that the wine room was freezing and that it changed the estimate for the time of death. I did not, however, assume that the 1.5 degrees per hour is a hard fact because I do not know how external temperature might change that number. I don't know what variables can change that means of determining the TOD.

As for the a coroner giving an estimate to the time of death, the statement that a coroner's TOD will always estimate the time of death is accurate, but misleading. The more information a coroner has, the more accurate the estimate will be. You're right. I did make an assumption here. My assumption was that a coroner can make a more accurate prediction about the time of death if they examine the body closer to the actual time of death. Was that assumption wrong?

BoldBear,

My assumption was that a coroner can make a more accurate prediction about the time of death if they examine the body closer to the actual time of death. Was that assumption wrong?

No I think your assumption is correct in general. Yet it would still represent an estimate.

I was replying to the idea that the wine room was freezing and that it changed the estimate for the time of death. I did not, however, assume that the 1.5 degrees per hour is a hard fact because I do not know how external temperature might change that number. I don't know what variables can change that means of determining the TOD.

I'll guess the wine-room was not freezing simply colder than the first floor, but with the boiler down there, not as cold as without, i.e. the ambient temperature would still be above, lets say the outdoor temperature?

The only complicating factor is was rigor mortis onset prior to JonBenet being placed into the wine-cellar? You can produce two estimates here then average them out, since we have an lower and upper bound we have a check on our arithmetic.


BBM: Years ago in some physics exam I got a question as follows or some variant: consider a glass cup filled with boiling hot water to make a cup of coffee, with an aluminium spoon left inset and the room temperature at 20 degrees Celsius. Question what will the temperature of the coffee be after 20 minutes?

So the cup, the spoon, and the water all radiate heat at different rates which are known, the catch is the spoon which is partially submerged so does not fully radiate in line with its mass, but if you do the arithmetic properly you should get full marks.

Similarly for JonBenet assuming she has just died, considering her mass or weight, allowing for her clothing and the surrounding temperature you can estimate the time taken for her body to cool down and allow rigor mortis to begin. That is one estimate using the wine-cellar average temperature and another using the first floor average temperature. So for the first floor it might be 70 degrees Fahrenheit, and the wine cellar 50 degrees Fahrenheit?

Here are the assumptions: normal body temperature is 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, after death the body loses heat at a rate of about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit per hour until it reaches ambient temperature, i.e. that of its surroundings. Rigor mortis in normal conditions sets in at around 70 degrees Fahrenheit, to reach full rigor takes between 8 and 12 hours.

On the exam question I got it wrong since I used the full mass of the spoon, whereas the submerged portion radiated heat at a lower rate than that exposed to the room temperature, duh!

.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

With what i gather from yr posts guys here's a possible timeline..

Late breakfast / no lunch
17: 00 jbr ate pineapple
17 :00-17:15 left for the whites party.
19:30-20:00 jbr ate cracked crab.
20:30 they left Whites house.
20:45 walkers
21:00 stines 15 minutes
21:30 home
22: 00- 22:30 JBR is hit on the head and vomits cracked crab. Stomach is empty.
Pine apple is at small intestine. Jbr appears dead.
......
23:30 strangulation in the basement and death occurs. Thombstone dd.12/25
The body is placed in the winecellar which is the coolest place in the basement.
05:00 full rigor set in.

 

[Tadpole12]

With what i gather from yr posts guys here's a possible timeline..

Late breakfast / no lunch
17: 00 jbr ate pineapple
17 :00-17:15 left for the whites party.
19:30-20:00 jbr ate cracked crab.
20:30 they left Whites house.
20:45 walkers
21:00 stines 15 minutes
21:30 home
22: 00- 22:30 JBR is hit on the head and vomits cracked crab. Stomach is empty.
Pine apple is at small intestine. Jbr appears dead.
......
23:30 strangulation in the basement and death occurs. Thombstone dd.12/25
The body is placed in the winecellar which is the coolest place in the basement.
05:00 full rigor set in.

Heyya MS,

"22: 00- 22:30 JBR is hit on the head and vomits cracked crab. Stomach is empty.
Pine apple is at small intestine."- MS
IDK, seems like a bit of a stretch, to me.

 

[andreww]

Big stretch.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

LOL.. Though i'm not an expert on the subject , I don't see that big a stretch depending on the digestion period of food in the stomach and its entering into small intestine.. I dont know how to put it in Eng but here we go
I believe the pine apple's significance lies under this. (not the fingerprints )

Foods average period in stomach is approx. 2-4 hours ( for pineapple it would be average 3 hours lets say and in the autopsy it was observed in the small intestine. )
As for cracked crab there were no mention of it on the autopsy report but she loved it and ate it on the whites.
So ;

If she had eaten cracked crab before pineapple it would also appear in the small intestine but it was not there ...
( I have doubts abt this depending on its longer duration in the stomach though but she might have vomitted )
If she had eaten cracked crab after pine apple she absolutely vomitted imo.

Given : after death digestion procedure stops. that shifts the TOD before midnight.

Just an opinion anyway .. ullhair:

 

[Madeleine74]

The pineapple was eaten AFTER the Ramsey's got home from the party. The undigested pineapple was in her stomach.

 

[DeDee]

Page 7 of the AR
http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet07.gif

"...The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable of fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple."

FW was sent to the wine cellar during the Christmas party at the Ramsey's home to retrieve more wine so the wine cellar was chilly enough to actually store wine inside.

JBR playing in the basement has never made sense to me. She hated that basement and was scared to go down there. If you notice the first photo taken of her on Christmas morning, it was still dark outside. She is standing between the two new bicycles with her arms and legs outstretched. She was only six years old so she could only go so long without needing to sleep or take a nap. For those reasons, I want to believe she was injured or asleep upon their arrival home.

For instance, just theory, if she ate the small amt of pineapple being leaving home at 5pm, it would be in her duodenum by 8:30 - 9pm when the head injury occurred. Maybe the injury occurred at the Stine's since the Rs did not go to the last place they had planned to stop before going home.

Even knowing PR was not a good housekeeper at all, I've always wondered why she left the feces on the box of chocolates in JBRs room for LEO to discover. I feel certain that second floor smelled something awful with urine frequently on the bedding and feces spread about.

As for the sexual assault, it's possible JonBenet was in the early stage of being introduced to the abuse, according to the AR findings. No way do I believe BDI by sticking his finger inside her and rubbing it around. Someone else was doing this to her and it could have been done at their Christmas party before she sat on the stairs and said she didn't feel pretty. That same evening 911 was called. JBR could have been assaulted again at the W's party. Then, finally with the broken paint brush insertion. These are difficult statements to assert regarding this little angel who deserved nothing less than to live a happy life.

JMHO and all that jazz

 

[Tadpole12]

Page 7 of the AR
http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet07.gif

"...The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable of fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple."

FW was sent to the wine cellar during the Christmas party at the Ramsey's home to retrieve more wine so the wine cellar was chilly enough to actually store wine inside.

JBR playing in the basement has never made sense to me. She hated that basement and was scared to go down there. If you notice the first photo taken of her on Christmas morning, it was still dark outside. She is standing between the two new bicycles with her arms and legs outstretched. She was only six years old so she could only go so long without needing to sleep or take a nap. For those reasons, I want to believe she was injured or asleep upon their arrival home.

For instance, just theory, if she ate the small amt of pineapple being leaving home at 5pm, it would be in her duodenum by 8:30 - 9pm when the head injury occurred. Maybe the injury occurred at the Stine's since the Rs did not go to the last place they had planned to stop before going home.

Even knowing PR was not a good housekeeper at all, I've always wondered why she left the feces on the box of chocolates in JBRs room for LEO to discover. I feel certain that second floor smelled something awful with urine frequently on the bedding and feces spread about.

As for the sexual assault, it's possible JonBenet was in the early stage of being introduced to the abuse, according to the AR findings. No way do I believe BDI by sticking his finger inside her and rubbing it around. Someone else was doing this to her and it could have been done at their Christmas party before she sat on the stairs and said she didn't feel pretty. That same evening 911 was called. JBR could have been assaulted again at the W's party. Then, finally with the broken paint brush insertion. These are difficult statements to assert regarding this little angel who deserved nothing less than to live a happy life.

JMHO and all that jazz

Heyya DeDee,

WRT the digital penetration and previous sexual assaults,
"No way do I believe BDI by sticking his finger inside her and rubbing it around."-DeDee

Why? do you interpret LA's comment re digital penetration, as having been solely caused by an adult?

 

[BBB167893]

My 2 cents: I always thought another child would be clumsy and do more damage.

 

[Annapurna]

It would not have taken 4 hours to digest the pineapple. It is a highly fibrous and enzymatic food, therefore it digests quite quickly. JB ate the crab at the party. In the AR, it is said there is some digested food further down her digestive tract (nearly fully digested, so it was not identifiable).

The pineapple had to have been eaten after she got home. Its that simple.

JB was playing with her friends at the party. She ate a little bit of her favorite food, but not much. She got home and was readied for bed. I believe PR fixed her hair into the second ponytail (too keep it from tangling) while JB ate a bite of the pineapple in the breakfast room. I also suspect BR was having a glass of water, and PR (or JR possibly) a cup of hot tea. BR finished his water and went to play with more toys, PR placed her teabag in his empty glass. She then went to go finish packing and JB likely went to play with BR.

jmo

 

[UKGuy]

Pineapple is mostly water and digests rapidly within an hour at the most, its one of the fastest digesting foods we can eat. Patsy said in some interview that BR was the Resident tea drinker.

JonBenet had to be awake to consume pineapple, and have her ponytail dressed, unless others want to offer alternative ad hoc reasons, e.g. postmortem staging?

Then it starts becoming messy and complicated and the smell test tells you its wrong!

.

 

[Foreign Faction]

IMHO, this is BY FAR one of the most important and mysterious questions in the case to be answered!
The terrible thought that both BR and JR abused JBR has crossed my mind several times.

 

[UKGuy]

IMHO, this is BY FAR one of the most important and mysterious questions in the case to be answered!
The terrible thought that both BR and JR abused JBR has crossed my mind several times.

Foreign Faction,
Its been suggested before, JR is alleged to be the responsible for the chronic assaults and BR for the acute one? Alternatively JAR could be responsible for the chronic abuse?

One big clue is that the acute assault was masked, hidden from view along with JonBenet's underwear and pajama bottoms vanishing, so was this the person who inflicted the acute assault staging it away?

Or did the parents remove the bloodstained nightgown and cleanup JonBenet, redress her in long johns and wrap her in a blanket, I certainly think there was a minimum of two stages to the staging that led to the wine-cellar?

.

 

[FrankieB]

Talk about inappropriate...

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/69/4aad571a9f29fc653b3af090a439c386/l.jpg

 

[singularity]

Talk about inappropriate...

http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/69/4aad571a9f29fc653b3af090a439c386/l.jpg

Indeed.


There are a lot of photographs of Jonbenet that do seem to cross a line. Even those that don't will sometimes make you wonder what is going on.

Here's an example....

Who took this photo? Why? How many photos were taken during this shoot? Are they similar?

 

[DeDee]

Heyya DeDee,

WRT the digital penetration and previous sexual assaults,
"No way do I believe BDI by sticking his finger inside her and rubbing it around."-DeDee

Why? do you interpret LA's comment re digital penetration, as having been solely caused by an adult?

JBRs sexual abuse was organized. The rubbing of one spot indicates knowledge of how to introduce 'this will be the new normal'. It is not indicative of a 9yo boy's exploratory actions. It is harmful to the truth to perpetuate the myth by making light of JBR being a "little bit" sexually abused. This child was being abused and groomed for nefarious purposes. The damage was not caused by playing around between children. Just my opinion, that's all.

:cow:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

With social media, like Instagram and Facebook, and the makeup industry becoming so huge (all the YouTube tutorials, for instance), I would not be surprised if there are parents who have their very young daughters in JonBenet-esque photos on those platforms just to get "likes".