Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[eileenhawkeye]

I personally believe her death was an accident and that everyone involved (the Ramseys) felt terribly about it. The reason her death looks so horrifying is because it was staged to look as though whoever did it was evil. In my opinion, none of the Ramseys are evil.

Evil as in Jeffrey Dahmer evil?
They bashed her skull and then strangled her to finish her off in order to save their reputations.
I feel like the Ramsey's get a pass compared to other child killers. Is it because they were rich? Like I feel like if the same thing happened to Bella bond, head bash followed by strangulation, her killers would be called the worst of the worst.

 

[morf13]

Evil as in Jeffrey Dahmer evil?
They bashed her skull and then strangled her to finish her off in order to save their reputations.
I feel like the Ramsey's get a pass compared to other child killers. Is it because they were rich? Like I feel like if the same thing happened to Bella bond, head bash followed by strangulation, her killers would be called the worst of the worst.

Whoever did that stuff to her, covering up a crime or not, is disgusting and horrid no matter what. If something happened by accident, you call 911 & deal with the consequences. To do what was done to that little Girl is disgusting and deplorable

 

[OliviaG1996]

Evil as in Jeffrey Dahmer evil?
They bashed her skull and then strangled her to finish her off in order to save their reputations.

"They" only applies to the cover-up, in my opinion. Only one person was responsible for the head bash and another, I'm assuming, for the strangulation. Also, I don't think they were trying to save "their" reputations, specifically. Mainly BR's. I don't think they "strangled her to finish her off" because this suggests they knew she was still alive as they were strangling her. I think that they believed she was already dead from the head blow, and the wound from the cord was just for show.

I feel like the Ramsey's get a pass compared to other child killers. Is it because they were rich? Like I feel like if the same thing happened to Bella bond, head bash followed by strangulation, her killers would be called the worst of the worst.

I'm definitely not giving the Rs a pass (if you can even call it that) because they were rich. I have a little bit of sympathy for them because I believe they were trying to protect their only remaining child. Child killers such as Casey Anthony, Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, etc. weren't covering for anyone when they killed their children. This case is very different (if my BDI theory is correct). If the Rs were covering for a "responsible" adult like Rachelle Bond was covering for her boyfriend, I'd feel much, much differently.

 

[andreww]

I personally believe her death was an accident and that everyone involved (the Ramseys) felt terribly about it. The reason her death looks so horrifying is because it was staged to look as though whoever did it was evil. In my opinion, none of the Ramseys are evil.

I disagree with everything but the fact that it was possibly an accident. Because if the Ramsey's were responsible for her death, they didn't have a problem ruining the careers of anybody who suggested they did. IMO the Rs are monsters for that reason alone.

And as a side note, even though there is a possibility that this was an accident, the fact that the wound was on the very top of JBRs head leads me to believe it wasn't. Ask yourself why, if the girl had innocently fallen down some stairs or something, why the Rs would feel the need to cover it up and stage a crime?


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[OliviaG1996]

I disagree with everything but the fact that it was possibly an accident. Because if the Ramsey's were responsible for her death, they didn't have a problem ruining the careers of anybody who suggested they did. IMO the Rs are monsters for that reason alone.

I was only talking about the crime itself. What they did in the aftermath was definitely monstrous.

And as a side note, even though there is a possibility that this was an accident, the fact that the wound was on the very top of JBRs head leads me to believe it wasn't. Ask yourself why, if the girl had innocently fallen down some stairs or something, why the Rs would feel the need to cover it up and stage a crime?


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I don't think the head blow was an accident. It was intentional, but it wasn't meant to kill her. In my opinion, the person who did it knew they had made a mistake and ran to get help.

 

[DeeDee249]

I disagree with everything but the fact that it was possibly an accident. Because if the Ramsey's were responsible for her death, they didn't have a problem ruining the careers of anybody who suggested they did. IMO the Rs are monsters for that reason alone.

And as a side note, even though there is a possibility that this was an accident, the fact that the wound was on the very top of JBRs head leads me to believe it wasn't. Ask yourself why, if the girl had innocently fallen down some stairs or something, why the Rs would feel the need to cover it up and stage a crime?


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I agree. Any medical personnel can always tell whether an injured child actually "fell down the stairs". That claim is a common one used by parents bringing a beaten child to an emergency room. Of course, there ARE legitimate cases where a child is hurt or even killed in a fall down the stairs. In those cases, the injuries are consistent with that type of event. There are multiple bruises in places that would be different from a case where a child was beaten or bashed on the head. JB's body did NOT have injuries consistent with a fall of ANY kind. I can't believe there are still some who think this could have happened. The coroner could tell. Believe me.
However, while I think the head bash was deliberate, it was not intended to kill her, IMO. I think whoever wielded that bludgeon (I believe it was the heavy, rubberized Maglight flashlight found on a kitchen counter wiped inside and out of prints). The wiping, especially the batteries inside, are what proves to ME anyway, that this was used to bash her. While it is possible the "posse" of R friends, clergy and "victim's advocates" could have wiped it down, as they did the countertops, etc, for one of them to actually remove and wipe down the BATTERIES indicates a knowledge that this instrument was used in the murder of JB and links the family alone to that event. The presence of family members' prints on both the flashlight and batteries is expected. There is no innocent reason to remove them. What would have HELPED the family would be the presence of the prints of someone outside the family. The wiping removed any possibility of determining whether any intruder held that flashlight. It also displayed an obvious and feeble attempt to distance it from belonging to the house. Of course, the Rs did admit they had one "just like it".

 

[BOESP]

Just wanted to comment that the trauma was not on the top of the head. It was more to the rear. Here's a photocopy of the autopsy report:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/coroner-jonbenet-ramsey-autopsy?page=6

 

[andreww]

Just wanted to comment that the trauma was not on the top of the head. It was more to the rear. Here's a photocopy of the autopsy report:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/coroner-jonbenet-ramsey-autopsy?page=6

Sorry BOESP, but the autopsy report might as well be in latin, because I don't understand it.

This photo speaks loudly. The obvious area of impact is at the back of the top of her head. To accidentally hit that area via a fall she would basically have had to land on the top of her head. With a fall, one would expect the person to be on their feet and topple over, and the area of impact would be somewhere just above ear height.

 

[Frigga]

Poor baby. As a mother, this just about kills me. That was a directed force that fractured that sweet baby girls beautiful skull. I am so sorry JonBenet- Frigga

 

[arizona sunshine]

I agree. Any medical personnel can always tell whether an injured child actually "fell down the stairs". That claim is a common one used by parents bringing a beaten child to an emergency room. Of course, there ARE legitimate cases where a child is hurt or even killed in a fall down the stairs. In those cases, the injuries are consistent with that type of event. There are multiple bruises in places that would be different from a case where a child was beaten or bashed on the head. JB's body did NOT have injuries consistent with a fall of ANY kind. I can't believe there are still some who think this could have happened. The coroner could tell. Believe me.
However, while I think the head bash was deliberate, it was not intended to kill her, IMO. I think whoever wielded that bludgeon (I believe it was the heavy, rubberized Maglight flashlight found on a kitchen counter wiped inside and out of prints). The wiping, especially the batteries inside, are what proves to ME anyway, that this was used to bash her. While it is possible the "posse" of R friends, clergy and "victim's advocates" could have wiped it down, as they did the countertops, etc, for one of them to actually remove and wipe down the BATTERIES indicates a knowledge that this instrument was used in the murder of JB and links the family alone to that event. The presence of family members' prints on both the flashlight and batteries is expected. There is no innocent reason to remove them. What would have HELPED the family would be the presence of the prints of someone outside the family. The wiping removed any possibility of determining whether any intruder held that flashlight. It also displayed an obvious and feeble attempt to distance it from belonging to the house. Of course, the Rs did admit they had one "just like it".

I don't doubt that the flashlight could be the murder weapon, more of a question due to my lack of forensic knowledge but - how do they know 100% sure that the batteries were wiped down? simply from the complete lack of any prints, cleaning solutions found on the batteries??

 

[UKGuy]

I agree. Any medical personnel can always tell whether an injured child actually "fell down the stairs". That claim is a common one used by parents bringing a beaten child to an emergency room. Of course, there ARE legitimate cases where a child is hurt or even killed in a fall down the stairs. In those cases, the injuries are consistent with that type of event. There are multiple bruises in places that would be different from a case where a child was beaten or bashed on the head. JB's body did NOT have injuries consistent with a fall of ANY kind. I can't believe there are still some who think this could have happened. The coroner could tell. Believe me.
However, while I think the head bash was deliberate, it was not intended to kill her, IMO. I think whoever wielded that bludgeon (I believe it was the heavy, rubberized Maglight flashlight found on a kitchen counter wiped inside and out of prints). The wiping, especially the batteries inside, are what proves to ME anyway, that this was used to bash her. While it is possible the "posse" of R friends, clergy and "victim's advocates" could have wiped it down, as they did the countertops, etc, for one of them to actually remove and wipe down the BATTERIES indicates a knowledge that this instrument was used in the murder of JB and links the family alone to that event. The presence of family members' prints on both the flashlight and batteries is expected. There is no innocent reason to remove them. What would have HELPED the family would be the presence of the prints of someone outside the family. The wiping removed any possibility of determining whether any intruder held that flashlight. It also displayed an obvious and feeble attempt to distance it from belonging to the house. Of course, the Rs did admit they had one "just like it".

DeeDee249,

while I think the head bash was deliberate, it was not intended to kill her

Yet it eventually did!

The person striking the head blow surely guessed what the result might be, and from directly above?

I reckon there is a case to made that the head blow was the first attempt at staging a crime-scene, albeit a failed one, since there was no visible injury left after the head blow, so they moved onto the asphyxiation device?

It might be JonBenet's assailant whacked her on the head, after assaulting her, but why when simple physical restraint would work just fine, when does an asssault require immediate blunt force trauma from above, i.e. thats calculated?

Last time I saw this was with Ted Bundy it was his signature - blunt force to the head followed by sexual assault and post mortem dissection. He used hammers, plaster casts, tire-levers, etc.

In JonBenet's case this MO has been reversed, how come?

.

 

[BOESP]

andreww, thanks for the photos. I've seen them before and once "read" the photo like you did, however, if it is indeed JonBenet's skull the displaced portion appears to me to be closer to the point where the base of the skull attaches to the neck than it is to the top of the skull.

The occipital bone is at the back of the head and posteroparietal is the back of the parietal bone (posterior) which to me is not the top of the skull but more to the rear.

Wish the photos were higher quality but we can agree to disagree on these points.

I'm one of only a few here (any?) who think the autopsy indicates a low velocity-high pressure wound. In other words, blunt force trauma created by her head being in motion and hitting a stationary object, rather than a moving object striking JonBenet's head.

 

[BOESP]

<courteously snipped for relevance>

To further clarify what I said above, I would consider the top of the head to be the upper point of the vertical line (sixth yellow circle).

 

[BBB167893]

The cells under her nails were degraded and were probably there for days or weeks. The fact that those samples didn't match the samples from the panties tells you that one at least one sample or possibly both samples have nothing to do with the crime.

Not only that, morf13, but the world is fairly bristling with human DNA. You can pick it up just about anyplace without knowing it.

 

[BBB167893]

An unexplained boot print was found on basement floor. That boot print matched a boot worn by a suspect that killed himself the day the police held a press conference in February 1997, when police announced they were closing in on the suspect
(see this video)
[video=youtube;2zeyqmxsFv0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zeyqmxsFv0[/video]

We did a whole thread and a radio show to correct the BS in that show, morf13.

 

[BBB167893]

Not claiming to be an expert in this case, and made no such claim. I am going by what Smit & co said in the video about it matching perfectly. What do you mean by "Ramsey produced Videos"? Ramseys didn't hire Smit, the DA did...and he saw the possibility of an outsider.

The videos were produced by Michael Tracey, whose views on this case are...compromised to say the least. I'd say more, but you'd have to read An Angel Betrayed to get the unvarnished version.

This case doesn't make a lot of sense:

1) It is NOT typical for Parents to kill their children, in such a horrible, terribly way as this. While some Parents kill their kids, it's usually spur of the moment, hits, rage moments,etc.

Oh, really? Let's hear from FBI agent Ron Walker, who was at the Ramsey house on 12/26/96 from the A & E program "Anatomy of an Investigation": "Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children."

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I've heard of cases that'll rip your heart out.

This was a well thought out, disgusting, brutal,slow,torture filled way to kill this child-

To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, it wasn't, but we're supposed to think it was.

again, not saying Parents are never capable of this, but it's not the norm. I could see a case where a parent loses it strikes a child, and they hit their head and die,etc. Am I correct in my recollection that the ME thought the blow to the head was the last trauma?

You are not correct. The pathologists thought that the head injury was inflicted anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours before she was strangled to death; much closer to what you just suggested.

6)If you are the Ramseys and you killed your Daughter in the middle of the night and want to make it look like a kidnapping, why not sneak out in the middle of the night and hide her body instead of keeping it in the house where you know it will be found, and look less like a kidnapping or intruder?

Firstly, the risk of being spotted would be too high. Also, taking the body outside the home might leave them at a loss to explain why something from them would be found elsewhere. Within the house, they can explain a lot more.

7)So much made of writing, and after researching the Zodiac killer case for a decade, I know that writing simply put, is NOT science. DNA is! The DNA in this case, simply does not fit the Family, for better or worse.

DNA IS a science, but as the woman from the FBI said, the more sensitive DNA methods get, the more irrelevant DNA will be found.

To flat out discount the intruder theory is not responsible in my opinion. To not entertain the idea is irresponsible.

I think a lot of us have entertained the idea. I know I did for quite a while.

The case for better or worse, was incorrectly handled from the start. The Family should have been ordered out of the house to preserve the crime scene. Instead, they were allowed to stay in and contaminate the scene, walk around, disturb the body,etc.

Agreed.

The police discounted the possibility that somebody could have come in thru the grate near basement window because it was too small. HOW? Smit came thru it in the video. John Ramsey had locked himself out previously, and supposedly come thru there.

Smit didn't have a very easy time, did he? Anyone who came through that window would have made a mess of the dirt at the bottom of the window well and shed lots of fibers. Neither one happened here. Moreover, there was that pesky spider-web...

 

[singularity]

You are not correct. The pathologists thought that the head injury was inflicted anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours before she was strangled to death; much closer to what you just suggested.

It amazes me how so few people realize that statements such as that(and many more, especially by Ramseys) destroys the house of cards known as the official timeline to the point of making that timeline bordering on meaningless, yet its parroted as somehow relevant.

Hell, just the high possibility of Jonbenet being awake at the time they came home shatters the timeline completely but this doesn't stop people from cherry picking their favorite moments of the timeline to suit specific theories.

Firstly, the risk of being spotted would be too high. Also, taking the body outside the home might leave them at a loss to explain why something from them would be found elsewhere. Within the house, they can explain a lot more.

Really? How so? The fact a ransom note was found literally feet from a dead body is one of the things that helped make the case so unique and pretty much unsolvable. The closer a body is to a note, the less there is for them to explain because for one it makes little sense and two instead of a LE slam dunk we've got a case that everyone and their grandma has a different theory on 19 years and counting.

Do I think they should have explained more? Absolutely. Going by what you just said they had no reason to say squat yet you think that scenario gives them a reason to say more and control the developing situation. They controlled it alright but not based on that. Thank Barney, Gomer, Goober, and the rest of the Mayberry PD for that problem.

 

[UKGuy]

It amazes me how so few people realize that statements such as that(and many more, especially by Ramseys) destroys the house of cards known as the official timeline to the point of making that timeline bordering on meaningless, yet its parroted as somehow relevant.

Hell, just the high possibility of Jonbenet being awake at the time they came home shatters the timeline completely but this doesn't stop people from cherry picking their favorite moments of the timeline to suit specific theories.


Really? How so? The fact a ransom note was found literally feet from a dead body is one of the things that helped make the case so unique and pretty much unsolvable. The closer a body is to a note, the less there is for them to explain because for one it makes little sense and two instead of a LE slam dunk we've got a case that everyone and their grandma has a different theory on 19 years and counting.

Do I think they should have explained more? Absolutely. Going by what you just said they had no reason to say squat yet you think that scenario gives them a reason to say more and control the developing situation. They controlled it alright but not based on that. Thank Barney, Gomer, Goober, and the rest of the Mayberry PD for that problem.

singularity,
With the release of the GJ documents, everyone and their Grandma now know the case is BDI and will never be prosecuted for that reason.

The ransom note is simply staged artifact it is a textual rationale for moving JonBenet from upstairs to downstairs, all under the guise of an abduction that never took place.

.

 

[singularity]

That's a good theory according to you and your grandma. Its hogwash for other people and grandmas.


Brought up the ransom note in a reply of mine to one of your posts in a different thread.

 

[UKGuy]

That's a good theory according to you and your grandma. Its hogwash for other people and grandmas.


Brought up the ransom note in a reply of mine to one of your posts in a different thread.

singularity,
mmm, well I've read it all before, nothing phazes me, there is no IDI forensic evidence, that leaves some RDI theory as prime suspect, so hogwash and grandmas should start considering BDI big time!

.