Why BOTH Garrote & Head Bash?

[DeeDee249]

We do know that she had bled enough to need to be wiped down. And the coroner had made a comment that the small drops of blood in the panties did not seem to match the location of the vaginal injuries. Blood would deposit differently in the panty crotch depending on whether she was standing or lying down. I have always felt that she was redressed AFTER she was wiped down, and wearing originally different panties than those she had been wearing when found- namely the oversized 12s. And there was NO blood noted on the longjohns, This tells me that after she was wiped, the clean panties were put on her, than the wet lonhjohns. The panties became wet with urine from being in contact with the wet longjohns and not because urine was released in them. If it had, the "circular" areas of blood would have spread out- not been so "circular". The blood stain would have been diluted by the urine release. I feel a few drops of blood oozed out after she was redressed, and whoever put the longjohns on and placed her in the wine cellar never saw those drops of blood because they weren't visible through the lonhjohns. She was dead already, IMO, and could no longer bleed, bur blood can ooze from inside the vagina, were other small amounts of blood were seen by the coroner. This also explains the coroner's comments that the blood drops in the panties did not "match up" with the internal injuries.

 

[UKGuy]

We do know that she had bled enough to need to be wiped down. And the coroner had made a comment that the small drops of blood in the panties did not seem to match the location of the vaginal injuries. Blood would deposit differently in the panty crotch depending on whether she was standing or lying down. I have always felt that she was redressed AFTER she was wiped down, and wearing originally different panties than those she had been wearing when found- namely the oversized 12s. And there was NO blood noted on the longjohns, This tells me that after she was wiped, the clean panties were put on her, than the wet lonhjohns. The panties became wet with urine from being in contact with the wet longjohns and not because urine was released in them. If it had, the "circular" areas of blood would have spread out- not been so "circular". The blood stain would have been diluted by the urine release. I feel a few drops of blood oozed out after she was redressed, and whoever put the longjohns on and placed her in the wine cellar never saw those drops of blood because they weren't visible through the lonhjohns. She was dead already, IMO, and could no longer bleed, bur blood can ooze from inside the vagina, were other small amounts of blood were seen by the coroner. This also explains the coroner's comments that the blood drops in the panties did not "match up" with the internal injuries.

DeeDee249,
BBM. Which would corroborate my assumption that JonBenet was staged and asphyxiated upstairs.

Then brought downstairs laid down on her stomach, facing away from the person who applied the paintbrush to the ligature, which may have deposited some urine, by osmosis, onto the carpet?

This makes sense logistically if we assume the knotting and hair entanglement is a consequence of her being positioned face down, and its location at the back of her neck?

Also this scenario assumes JonBenet was not lying on the blanket she was eventually wrapped in, or that she was carried downstairs in it?


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
BBM. Which would corroborate my assumption that JonBenet was staged and asphyxiated upstairs.

Then brought downstairs laid down on her stomach, facing away from the person who applied the paintbrush to the ligature, which may have deposited some urine, by osmosis, onto the carpet?

This makes sense logistically if we assume the knotting and hair entanglement is a consequence of her being positioned face down, and its location at the back of her neck?

Also this scenario assumes JonBenet was not lying on the blanket she was eventually wrapped in, or that she was carried downstairs in it?


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I agree that she was not lying on the blanket when the garrote was applied or when she died. There was no urine found on the blanket, as far as I know. But I do not believe she was wrapped in it and carried downstairs. First, crime photos show her bed perfectly neat at the foot end, and police even mentioned this to Patsy in an interview- that it looked like no blanket could have been pulled off the bed and have the foot end remain intact. She agreed. I believe the blanket was taken from the basement dryer, where LHO said it was always laundered because it didn't fit in the small washer outside JB's room.
I still feel although she may have been bashed upstairs, she was strangled in the basement just outside the wine cellar, near the paint tote. The wood splinters on the carpet indicate the brush was broken there, although I do concede the garrote COULD have been made upstairs and in that case the strangulation (and her death) could have occurred in her bed. The sheets were urine -stained. But then we have the urine on the carpet in the basement too. I do not see why she would have been strangled to death in her bed, then placed on the basement carpet in wet clothing. The ligature marks are RED, indicating she was alive when they were made. The one puzzle is the lone white ligature furrow- which was made after death. So it would have to follow, if she were strangled in her bed, that she was placed on the basement, dead, and the cord wound one more time.

 

[txsvicki]

Wound one more time sfter death, then removed?

 

[UKGuy]

I agree that she was not lying on the blanket when the garrote was applied or when she died. There was no urine found on the blanket, as far as I know. But I do not believe she was wrapped in it and carried downstairs. First, crime photos show her bed perfectly neat at the foot end, and police even mentioned this to Patsy in an interview- that it looked like no blanket could have been pulled off the bed and have the foot end remain intact. She agreed. I believe the blanket was taken from the basement dryer, where LHO said it was always laundered because it didn't fit in the small washer outside JB's room.
I still feel although she may have been bashed upstairs, she was strangled in the basement just outside the wine cellar, near the paint tote. The wood splinters on the carpet indicate the brush was broken there, although I do concede the garrote COULD have been made upstairs and in that case the strangulation (and her death) could have occurred in her bed. The sheets were urine -stained. But then we have the urine on the carpet in the basement too. I do not see why she would have been strangled to death in her bed, then placed on the basement carpet in wet clothing. The ligature marks are RED, indicating she was alive when they were made. The one puzzle is the lone white ligature furrow- which was made after death. So it would have to follow, if she were strangled in her bed, that she was placed on the basement, dead, and the cord wound one more time.

DeeDee249,
JonBenet may have been ligature asphyxiated downstairs, its a detail that might be relevant if we knew some more facts.

I'm assuming the whack on her head was a failed attempt at providing some visual explanation for her being in a coma, Meyer noted both nostrils contained tanned mucous material.

When this attempt at staging failed they moved on to using a ligature, this might explain the alleged passage of time between her head injury and her ligature asphyxiation.

This time interval might have allowed the R's to assess any prior injuries to her neck and decide some form of asphyxiation would be required to mask any marks on her neck?

The paintbrush handle was not required to asphyxiate JonBenet it was downstairs, so I cannot see anyone breaking it and bringing it upstairs, although a possibility, it does not change the order of events.

I do not see why she would have been strangled to death in her bed, then placed on the basement carpet in wet clothing.

Similarly if she was ligature asphyxiated in the basement, why place a wet JonBenet onto a dry blanket?

It appears the R's were staging in stepwise refinement, with ad hoc alterations as they went along?


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[txsvicki]

I can't see any reason for the ligature except to kill JonBenet. Any other injuries could have been from the intruder/kidnapper with no need to stage anything except for the note and duct tape over the mouth.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I agree that she was not lying on the blanket when the garrote was applied or when she died. There was no urine found on the blanket, as far as I know. But I do not believe she was wrapped in it and carried downstairs. First, crime photos show her bed perfectly neat at the foot end, and police even mentioned this to Patsy in an interview- that it looked like no blanket could have been pulled off the bed and have the foot end remain intact. She agreed. I believe the blanket was taken from the basement dryer, where LHO said it was always laundered because it didn't fit in the small washer outside JB's room.
I still feel although she may have been bashed upstairs, she was strangled in the basement just outside the wine cellar, near the paint tote. The wood splinters on the carpet indicate the brush was broken there, although I do concede the garrote COULD have been made upstairs and in that case the strangulation (and her death) could have occurred in her bed. The sheets were urine -stained. But then we have the urine on the carpet in the basement too. I do not see why she would have been strangled to death in her bed, then placed on the basement carpet in wet clothing. The ligature marks are RED, indicating she was alive when they were made. The one puzzle is the lone white ligature furrow- which was made after death. So it would have to follow, if she were strangled in her bed, that she was placed on the basement, dead, and the cord wound one more time.

BBM

I totally agree with you on this point, Dee Dee. That blanket didn't come from her bed. In fact, the reason I asked whether or not her sheets were still wet or simply stained was because I don't believe JBR was ever in that bed on the night of the 25th. Which, of course, would mean that the urine stain on the sheets had to have been from a previous night.

I also agree with you that the blanket came from the basement dryer. If that was the usual routine for drying that blanket (per LHP), I see no reason to assume it didn't come from that dryer. I think that's how the Barbie nightgown ended up near her body...it clung to the blanket as it was pulled from the dryer. It's interesting to note JR's comment that the nightgown "wasn't supposed to be there". How does HE know what was and what wasn't supposed to be there?

My personal belief is that nothing unusual happened upstairs that night. I think a lot of what we see in her bedroom came either from the previous night or Christmas morning. I think the head bash happened downstairs. (But I'm flexible on this point.)

 

[txsvicki]

If Patsy had washed the blanket and put it on JonBenet's bed, I don't think she'd ever have bothered to tuck it under the comforter, but would have waited for Linda to do it. Patsy never claimed to have done that though, so most likely the blanket was in the dryer along with the gown.

 

[DeeDee249]

Wound one more time sfter death, then removed?

The coroner removed the garrote. The ligature furrows, both red and white, were more clearly visible after that, and I don't believe the white one could be seen until the ligature was removed. Again- the white mark could be something that developed after death during the blanching phase of livor mortis and could actually have come from her head drooping down or the skin of her throat folding over the last twist, which would have been simply left in place as she died. In other words, if the garrote finished her off and ultimately was the cause of her death (not taking into account that the head bash would have killed her eventually even without the strangulation) then the white mark represents the LAST wind of the cord, left in place.

 

[DeeDee249]

If Patsy had washed the blanket and put it on JonBenet's bed, I don't think she'd ever have bothered to tuck it under the comforter, but would have waited for Linda to do it. Patsy never claimed to have done that though, so most likely the blanket was in the dryer along with the gown.

There were only a few nights that the Rs would be at home before their two trips. LHP was scheduled to come to clean right after they left. Patsy would never have done something herself that LHP would do when she came. A few nights without that blanket were no big deal. I can see Patsy washing the wet sheets, because they were washed right outside JB's room in a small washer/dryer set. And I can see her putting the clean sheets on the bed, of course. But I can't see her taking the time to launder the white blanket in the basement every day till they left. IMO, LHP was the last person to launder the blanket, it was always laundered in the basement because it fit in the large washer there, and when LHP was show a photo by LE of JB's bed, she told police the sheets on her bed (Beauty & the Beast) were not the ones she put on when she was last there on the 23rd. So it seems logical that JB we the bed on the 24th and Patsy put just the clean sheets on the bed and didn't bother replacing the blanket.

 

[Chelly]

There were only a few nights that the Rs would be at home before their two trips. LHP was scheduled to come to clean right after they left. Patsy would never have done something herself that LHP would do when she came. A few nights without that blanket were no big deal. I can see Patsy washing the wet sheets, because they were washed right outside JB's room in a small washer/dryer set. And I can see her putting the clean sheets on the bed, of course. But I can't see her taking the time to launder the white blanket in the basement every day till they left. IMO, LHP was the last person to launder the blanket, it was always laundered in the basement because it fit in the large washer there, and when LHP was show a photo by LE of JB's bed, she told police the sheets on her bed (Beauty & the Beast) were not the ones she put on when she was last there on the 23rd. So it seems logical that JB we the bed on the 24th and Patsy put just the clean sheets on the bed and didn't bother replacing the blanket.

BBM. Agreed....And.... PR avoided going to the basement unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

There were only a few nights that the Rs would be at home before their two trips. LHP was scheduled to come to clean right after they left. Patsy would never have done something herself that LHP would do when she came. A few nights without that blanket were no big deal. I can see Patsy washing the wet sheets, because they were washed right outside JB's room in a small washer/dryer set. And I can see her putting the clean sheets on the bed, of course. But I can't see her taking the time to launder the white blanket in the basement every day till they left. IMO, LHP was the last person to launder the blanket, it was always laundered in the basement because it fit in the large washer there, and when LHP was show a photo by LE of JB's bed, she told police the sheets on her bed (Beauty & the Beast) were not the ones she put on when she was last there on the 23rd. So it seems logical that JB we the bed on the 24th and Patsy put just the clean sheets on the bed and didn't bother replacing the blanket.

BBM

But does the crime scene photo of the bed appear to you like a bed that had been slept in on the 25th? To me it doesn't. Of course, I could be wrong, but assuming for a moment that I'm right, that would mean that JBR had to have wet the bed twice between the 23rd and the 24th. She'd have had to have wet the sheets LHP put on her bed on the 23rd,and also the Beauty sheets Patsy put on the bed on the morning of the 24th. So, if JBR didn't sleep in her bed on Christmas night, then the urine stained Beauty sheets would have had to have come from the evening of Christmas Eve/early morning of Christmas, right? Or am I confusing myself?

 

[txsvicki]

Didn't Patsy say that JonBenet slept in Burke's room on Christmas Eve so they could wake each other early? The comforter looks folded back, like an adult would do. No wonder Steve Thomas thought toilet rage. Personally, I think a dirty sheet was put onto the bed to make it look like JonBenet had been in her bed the night she died.

 

[UKGuy]

Didn't Patsy say that JonBenet slept in Burke's room on Christmas Eve so they could wake each other early? The comforter looks folded back, like an adult would do. No wonder Steve Thomas thought toilet rage. Personally, I think a dirty sheet was put onto the bed to make it look like JonBenet had been in her bed the night she died.

txsvicki,
She did. Which is why I thought on Christmas night JonBenet again slept in Burke's room.

After the sexual assault and JonBenet lapsing into a coma she was moved into her bedroom with some staging taking place, this was later revised to a kidnapping down to the basement.

Consider the bloodstain on JonBenet's pillow, could the pillow have been switched from BR's room?

Was JonBenet's bed made to look unslept in by design, or did she never make to her own bedroom?

These questions are worth asking since Kolar alleges BR's pants were found on JonBenet's bedroom floor, how so?

Also JonBenet's hair had been tied back with hair-ties, now does this represent staging, after the fact, or an indication that Patsy prepared JonBenet for bed and treated her to a pineapple snack?

i.e. PR was fully aware where JonBenet intended to sleep that night, she was tired and not so bothered anyway?

Those Christmas gifts that Kolar says had been opened earlier that day, did BR find something JonBenet might like and store it in his bedroom?

Then there are those pants lying on JonBenet's bathroom floor, can they be cross-referenced with the feces on the candy?

Looks to me as if it all kicked off upstairs as a result of JonBenet being molested, she likely refused to consent, raised her voice, or tried to leave the room, resulting in BR engaging her in a neck lock, or similar which compresed the vagus nerve leading to coma.

Her head injury is, I speculate, down to one of the parents, probably JR?


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[Anyhoo]

txsvicki,
She did. Which is why I thought on Christmas night JonBenet again slept in Burke's room.

After the sexual assault and JonBenet lapsing into a coma she was moved into her bedroom with some staging taking place, this was later revised to a kidnapping down to the basement.

Consider the bloodstain on JonBenet's pillow, could the pillow have been switched from BR's room?

Was JonBenet's bed made to look unslept in by design, or did she never make to her own bedroom?

These questions are worth asking since Kolar alleges BR's pants were found on JonBenet's bedroom floor, how so?

Also JonBenet's hair had been tied back with hair-ties, now does this represent staging, after the fact, or an indication that Patsy prepared JonBenet for bed and treated her to a pineapple snack?

i.e. PR was fully aware where JonBenet intended to sleep that night, she was tired and not so bothered anyway?

Those Christmas gifts that Kolar says had been opened earlier that day, did BR find something JonBenet might like and store it in his bedroom?

Then there are those pants lying on JonBenet's bathroom floor, can they be cross-referenced with the feces on the candy?

Looks to me as if it all kicked off upstairs as a result of JonBenet being molested, she likely refused to consent, raised her voice, or tried to leave the room, resulting in BR engaging her in a neck lock, or similar which compresed the vagus nerve leading to coma.

Her head injury is, I speculate, down to one of the parents, probably JR?


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Respectfully, I think you are way off base.

 

[DeeDee249]

BBM

But does the crime scene photo of the bed appear to you like a bed that had been slept in on the 25th? To me it doesn't. Of course, I could be wrong, but assuming for a moment that I'm right, that would mean that JBR had to have wet the bed twice between the 23rd and the 24th. She'd have had to have wet the sheets LHP put on her bed on the 23rd,and also the Beauty sheets Patsy put on the bed on the morning of the 24th. So, if JBR didn't sleep in her bed on Christmas night, then the urine stained Beauty sheets would have had to have come from the evening of Christmas Eve/early morning of Christmas, right? Or am I confusing myself?

The bed does not look like anyone slept in it, even though it is unmade. As far as the blanket, it doesn't matter whether she sept in it 1 or 2 more nights. Patsy didn't bother to put the blanket back on the bed. If JB wet the bed on the night of the 23rd, Patsy changed the sheets herself on the 24th. This accounts for LHP saying the sheets she had put on the 23rd were not the sheets in the photo. JB also slept in the bed Christmas Eve, the 24th. Christmas morning being what it usually is in households with young kids, I believe Patsy did not change her bed Christmas Day, but left the urine-stained sheets to dry right on the bed. I also believe JB never went to bed Christmas night, so the urine stained sheets were from the previous night- Christmas Eve.
It is confusing, but doesn't have to be. The only important things are that LHP said different sheets were on the bed than she last put on, which is no surprise because JB wet the bed nearly every night, and that the white blanket could not have been pulled off that bed.

 

[borndem]

Sexual assault, scream, bash on the head.

I think the order of the acts as you state above makes the most sense, DeeDee, but if BR and JB were in her bedroom when it took place, what object would have been likely to be used by BR to inflict the head injury? And could he have located it quickly enuff to hit her before she screamed a second time? (I'm not asking you specifically, I'm just asking/thinking aloud...)

If JB had joined BR in his bedroom as we have read that she often did, there might have been a baseball bat (OMG) or some other hard object which BR could have used quickly since he would have known what items were nearby.

Nothing, it seems to me, is ever simple....

 

[borndem]

Bashed from behind/side. The point of impact is not directly at the back of her skull, but the rear side of the skull, according to the photos and diagrams I have seen. If the molester was holding the flashlight, or it was right close by, she may not have had time to move away.

Her being struck from behind makes sense to me, DeeDee, especially if her assailant were right-handed. I don't know if BR was right- or left-handed... does anyone know or remember? Were all the immediate family members right-handed? Do we know?

details:waitasec:, details :dunno:, details... ullhair:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Her being struck from behind makes sense to me, DeeDee, especially if her assailant were right-handed. I don't know if BR was right- or left-handed... does anyone know or remember? Were all the immediate family members right-handed? Do we know?

details:waitasec:, details :dunno:, details... ullhair:

Funny, borndem but that was the same question I was asking in regards to a heart drawn on JBR's hand.

 

[txsvicki]

I asked or researched the same question a few years back and was pointed to a pic of B with a watch on his left wrist, so the thought was that he's right handed.