Bashed from behind/side. The point of impact is not directly at the back of her skull, but the rear side of the skull, according to the photos and diagrams I have seen. If the molester was holding the flashlight, or it was right close by, she may not have had time to move away.
Why BOTH Garrote & Head Bash?
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Bashed from behind/side. The point of impact is not directly at the back of her skull, but the rear side of the skull, according to the photos and diagrams I have seen. If the molester was holding the flashlight, or it was right close by, she may not have had time to move away.
DeeDee249,
Right, could be it happened that way. In my non-scream BDI: JonBenet hits the floor due to her vagus nerve being compressed. She is then dragged across her bedroom floor by BR, causing the abrasions on her lower back and posterior left lower leg. Similarly the abrasion/contusion on her posterior right shoulder, and right cheek, suggesting she was dragged by her left arm?
BR lifts JonBenet onto her bed and poses her accordingly. The rest is basically staging, all well known to seasoned WS sleuthers.
Hence the bloodstain on her pillow.
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Charterhouse
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I agree with you UKGuy in the first paragraph. I am not sure that BR put JBR onto her bed. I do agree the rest is staging. I don't have an answer for that blood on her pillow. That never fit for me. Yet it is there.
Chelly
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Could the blood have been on a finger and transferred to the pillow?
Possibly, but it would have looked like a print or smear. It was described as droplets, I think. I was always surprised the blood on her pillow wasn't made more of at the time. I know there was a lot of info that was never made public, and I am thinking maybe this was part of it.
One of the Detectives (Haney? DeMuth?) in one of Patsy's interviews mentioned blood spots on JonBenet's pillow. He then asked if JonBenet ever picked her nose or had nose bleeds. Patsy said, basically, no, maybe once in a blue moon but not lately.
My take on the above is that in the autopsy photo you can see tinged mucus dried on the right side of JonBenet's face to the area immediately to the right of her nose and spreading toward the mouth and lower jaw. So, I'm thinking the detective put a leading question to Patsy because he was trying to pin down whether the attack was in the bedroom and perhaps on the bed. Or, perhaps, JonBenet was carried to the bed after being attacked.
All the above is jmo.
My take on the above is that in the autopsy photo you can see tinged mucus dried on the right side of JonBenet's face to the area immediately to the right of her nose and spreading toward the mouth and lower jaw. So, I'm thinking the detective put a leading question to Patsy because he was trying to pin down whether the attack was in the bedroom and perhaps on the bed. Or, perhaps, JonBenet was carried to the bed after being attacked.
All the above is jmo.
Charterhouse,
Well considering the blood on her pillow,either JonBenet never left her bed or someone placed her there?
For those looking for some insight I'll outline my approach to my BDI theory, it might assist others in overcoming obstacles which are many in this case.
Now a statement of the obvious: three things have to be explained; JonBenet's sexual assault, her head injury and her asphyxiation. No theory is complete with any one item absent.
So whichever theory I consider the above elements must be explained away.
Also I partition the Ramsey Household into two parts, i.e. Upstairs and Downstairs. I assume Upstairs to be the primary crime-scene and downstairs to be the secondary crime-scene i.e staged.
In essence you can ignore forensic evidence from Downstairs unless you think it originates from Upstairs?
Do not bother with the RN etc its staged evidence, it cannot tell you who abused and killed JonBenet.
A very small clue is that JonBenet is wearing hair ties. This suggests, JonBenet was readied for bed?
So in my non-scream BDI, the abuse is considered as a component of BR's obsessive compulsive behaviour, which includes the photographing of JonBenet, and collecting pageant photographs, or at least those which stimulated him. Later his collection would be dumped down in the basement.
It helps to recognise BR as an outsider in his own family looking in on a favoured child, i.e. JonBenet, who he has access to only under specific circumstances. e.g. Holidays, weekends etc.
So JonBenet was being actively abused in the weeks leading upto Christmas, it was something that had become normalized and expected. Thus allowing the violence to follow.
Other People suspected JonBenet was being molested. They probably never realized how dangerous it had become. They knew anecdotally JonBenet was taking part in sleepovers and playing doctors etc, this was causing concern for some parents. Simply because their sons were involved, consider Susan Stine's response.
So BR's sexual obsession with JonBenet leads to him attempting to control events on Christmas Night and failing.
JonBenet either refused to accomodate him or she pulled away resulting in him constraining her neck in an attempt at control her movement, but which constricted her vagus nerve, resulting her unconciousness?
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Agreed, DeeDee -- that order of events above makes the most sense to me. Whoever hurt her (IMO it was BR) panicked when she screamed -- the "doer" had to shut her up fast!
My question after that is -- did PR or JR hear her scream? Is that when the cover-up started, or did BR start it by himself by trying to hide her downstairs? And when did this happen? midnight or 3:00am??
I think they heard the scream. I think Patsy was still up, puttering around getting ready for the trip. JR may or may not have been upstairs in the bedroom. Police tested to see whether a scream in the basement could be heard up in the Rs 3rd floor bedroom. It could. They also stood outside the Stanton's home across the street to see whether it could be heard there. It could. There was a vent pipe in a furnace room near where the paint tote was found (and where some believe the garrote was applied and where she may have died). This pipe carried the sound. Mrs Stanton said she always slept with her bedroom window open a little.
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Excellent info, DeeDee - I didn't know about the scream tests -- so, the neighbor prolly DID hear what was JB's scream & not someone else's scream, etc. I had figured that if a neighbor did hear what was JB's scream, surely the elder R's heard it, too. Hmmmm. Interesting, isn't it!?
Thanks for the response
.
Thanks for the response
Arnie M
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The way i understood it there was some type of a furnace duct in the basement that brought in fresh outside air .... and it was speculated that is how the neighbor could have heard a scream (sound traveled outside)
Trouble is .... at the same time nearly everybody was in agreement that JBR was not harmed in the basement ... just moved there later after she was unconscious or dead.
The two speculations conflict with each other
Trouble is .... at the same time nearly everybody was in agreement that JBR was not harmed in the basement ... just moved there later after she was unconscious or dead.
The two speculations conflict with each other
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Posted by UKGuy
respectfully snipped and bbm by borndem:
I have looked at the cord which was found so tightly wrapped around JB's neck, and it appeared to me when I first saw it, as it was shown after it was taken off of her neck, that it looked to me like a "choke collar" kind of thing that some people use for training dogs to walk, etc., while leashed, or a lasso-type rope. It looked like if the cord was looped around her neck and the long end were put through the small loop at the end, someone could pull it tightly around her neck by simply pulling at the long end of the cord. Kind of like a zip-tie, but it didn't have the teeth of a zip-tie.
I could see BR or someone, possibly out of rage or sheer cruelty or in a rush of panic, pulling the cord tightly around her neck and, as you say, UKGuy, causing unconsciousness. (Or, if PR or JR, perhaps mercy-killing her since she was obviously hurt very badly and thought to be possibly in deep pain and perhaps badly brain-damaged.)
The cord may have closed her throat so she couldn't breathe and so she might not have been able to defend herself or cry out. I've just had that feeling ever since I saw the construction of the cord -- it was indeed not a true garrote, but it didn't need to be one if it were made as a lasso akin to one a cattle-roper would use. Makes me cringe at the possibility...
respectfully snipped and bbm by borndem:
Informative post, UKGuy -- thanks.
I have looked at the cord which was found so tightly wrapped around JB's neck, and it appeared to me when I first saw it, as it was shown after it was taken off of her neck, that it looked to me like a "choke collar" kind of thing that some people use for training dogs to walk, etc., while leashed, or a lasso-type rope. It looked like if the cord was looped around her neck and the long end were put through the small loop at the end, someone could pull it tightly around her neck by simply pulling at the long end of the cord. Kind of like a zip-tie, but it didn't have the teeth of a zip-tie.
I could see BR or someone, possibly out of rage or sheer cruelty or in a rush of panic, pulling the cord tightly around her neck and, as you say, UKGuy, causing unconsciousness. (Or, if PR or JR, perhaps mercy-killing her since she was obviously hurt very badly and thought to be possibly in deep pain and perhaps badly brain-damaged.)
The cord may have closed her throat so she couldn't breathe and so she might not have been able to defend herself or cry out. I've just had that feeling ever since I saw the construction of the cord -- it was indeed not a true garrote, but it didn't need to be one if it were made as a lasso akin to one a cattle-roper would use. Makes me cringe at the possibility...
borndem,
Well the way I see it in the non-scream BDI. The sequence goes: manual asphyxiation, head blow, followed by the application of the paintbrush/cord
garrote.Now initially there may have been a protracted struggle between BR and JonBenet, she has various contusions and abrasions on her legs, arms and face.
Someone wanted JonBenet dead, that blow on the head was not dealt as she was moving away, nor was it struck as she was standing up, since I assume she is now unconcious.
Something went dreadfully wrong in JonBenet's bedroom resulting in her loosing unconciousness and lapsing into a coma.
The blow to the head was intended to act as the garrote does, i.e. explain her death. It failed on two counts. There was no visible external injury to account for her coma and she did not stop breathing.
JonBenet could have been whacked on her head as she lay supine on her bed, this would explain the droplet of blood and her later mucus issuing either from her mouth or nostrils.
In essence her bedroom is the primary crime-scene and the place where the majority of the staging took place. Even her asphyxiation with the cord could have taken place here, with the paintbrush added down in the basement.
This is why I partition the crime-scene into an upstairs and a downstairs, i.e. JonBenet was molested, whacked on the head, and ligature asphyxiated upstairs, then staged as an intruder kidnapping downstairs.
Most of the unexplained evidence downstairs, photos, clothing etc was dumped there to disconnect it from upstairs. Hence upstairs was largely sanitized and laid the ground for Lou Smit's Intruder Theory.
Upstairs is the primary crime-scene and downstairs is the secondary staged crime-scene!
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Thoughtful post. Its very cohesive to think of the molestation, scream, head bash, but since were wandering away from that picture a little . . . It still strikes me that something happened both in the basement and the bedroom. And playing into another theory youve suggested in the past that the molestation and head strike could have been perpetrated by two people, there was one exchange between Judith Densen-Gerber (you can google her bio) and Geraldo which could possibly support such a theory.borndem,
Well the way I see it in the non-scream BDI. The sequence goes: manual asphyxiation, head blow, followed by the application of the paintbrush/cord
Now initially there may have been a protracted struggle between BR and JonBenet, she has various contusions and abrasions on her legs, arms and face.
Someone wanted JonBenet dead, that blow on the head was not dealt as she was moving away, nor was it struck as she was standing up, since I assume she is now unconcious.
Something went dreadfully wrong in JonBenet's bedroom resulting in her loosing unconciousness and lapsing into a coma.
The blow to the head was intended to act as the garrote does, i.e. explain her death. It failed on two counts. There was no visible external injury to account for her coma and she did not stop breathing.
JonBenet could have been whacked on her head as she lay supine on her bed, this would explain the droplet of blood and her later mucus issuing either from her mouth or nostrils.
In essence her bedroom is the primary crime-scene and the place where the majority of the staging took place. Even her asphyxiation with the cord could have taken place here, with the paintbrush added down in the basement.
This is why I partition the crime-scene into an upstairs and a downstairs, i.e. JonBenet was molested, whacked on the head, and ligature asphyxiated upstairs, then staged as an intruder kidnapping downstairs.
Most of the unexplained evidence downstairs, photos, clothing etc was dumped there to disconnect it from upstairs. Hence upstairs was largely sanitized and laid the ground for Lou Smit's Intruder Theory.
Upstairs is the primary crime-scene and downstairs is the secondary staged crime-scene!
.
Heres what Dr. Densen-Gerber said: There's another thing which I learned from your associate that you had one of her friends on, and this friend said that PR loved her daughter very, very much, but she was always concerned that she go to the bathroom, urinate before--and I think this was on your show--before they went anywhere. Well, it's strange--it's--when you talk `went anywhere'--it's a little sick joke--before she went to heaven, I have to say. The fascinating thing in the autopsy that confused me from the very beginning is she had an empty bladder. So she had to be k--killed within five minutes after she went to the potty.
RIVERA: Meaning what?
Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Meaning that someone took her to the potty. It wasn't a death throes, death agony (release of urine). . . .snipped.
PR used to take JB to the potty around midnight, to help prevent a bedwetting incident. One might envision something like PR going into JBs room at around 11:30, when she will take JB to potty before going to sleep. When PR sees blood, and asks JB if BR did this to her, and JB says no, it may have been a no win answer for JB, whether it had been BR or JR. Whoever it was, and PR thinks JB is lying, it may have unleashed something like a complexity of rage, betrayal, and utter helplessness. A melt-down occurs. If there was a scream, might it have been in terror of a parents reaction?
Simply a theory, as always jmo.
questfortrue,
My theory assumes the involvement of more than one person, in fact three, since it is likely that there was more than one staging in the basement!
PDI is another theory, since the same events have to be explained way, and for JonBenet's molestation this is difficult.
I assume PR was involved, yet when I am not certain, the forensic evidence suggests at a later stage.
Similary with JR I assume he was involved at an earlier stage, and again towards the 911 call, where he amended a prior staging?
JonBenet's longjohns and underwear were urine stained according to the Autopsy Report, suggesting her bladder had not been voided recently?
If you factor in the assumption that both the size-12's and longjohns were the result of staging, then it appears JonBenet urine stained her clothing when she was ligature asphyxiated?
Since the Autopsy Report both written and verbatim accounts outline both acute and chronic sexual assaults. I think in order of probability the RDI theories line up thus: BDI, JDI, PDI.
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Mountain_Kat
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Were her bed sheets still wet, or were they simply urine stained? Anyone know?
Mountain_Kat,
Nobody knows for sure, but its possible the could have been wet and dried overnight?
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My understanding of Dr. Gerber's point was that while there was some urine release outside the WC, and onto her longjohns and the carpet where she actually died, there should have been a greater amount. The pathologists speculation was that there was a period of time when she was still breathing, yet unconscious, which would account for additional urine accumulating in the bladder. And that was the released urine outside the WC. Perhaps one of our science-based sleuthers can weigh in?
txsvicki
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What I'd like to know for sure is, was the carpet by the wine cellar soaked with urine or just transfer from wet longjohn thighs. And, were JonBenet's longjohns and panties dry or damp when she was found. I think the sheet could have dried, but not necessarily the longjohns down in that humid moldy wine room.
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From Kolars book: Upon their removal the underwear and long-johns were observed to contain dried, yellowish colored urine stains and the underwear contained two small circular stains of blood in the crotch. The location of the urine stains were to the front of the clothing, and it was thought that JonBenét had been lying on her stomach when her bladder let go at the time of her death.
(Kindle Locations 812-815).
ST book: Dr. Lee questioned whether the urine stains on the long-johns and underwear matched stains on the sheets. They never tested the sheets, which although they were said to reek of urine, it was likely already dried.
In the carpet by the wine cellar, there was discovered creatinine (found in urine). The carpet was (and correct me if stated otherwise somewhere) not soaked in urine. So it sounds like it was transfer. moo
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