Why BOTH Garrote & Head Bash?

The bed does not look like anyone slept in it, even though it is unmade. As far as the blanket, it doesn't matter whether she sept in it 1 or 2 more nights. Patsy didn't bother to put the blanket back on the bed. If JB wet the bed on the night of the 23rd, Patsy changed the sheets herself on the 24th. This accounts for LHP saying the sheets she had put on the 23rd were not the sheets in the photo. JB also slept in the bed Christmas Eve, the 24th. Christmas morning being what it usually is in households with young kids, I believe Patsy did not change her bed Christmas Day, but left the urine-stained sheets to dry right on the bed. I also believe JB never went to bed Christmas night, so the urine stained sheets were from the previous night- Christmas Eve.
It is confusing, but doesn't have to be. The only important things are that LHP said different sheets were on the bed than she last put on, which is no surprise because JB wet the bed nearly every night, and that the white blanket could not have been pulled off that bed.

These were my thoughts as well, DeeDee. So let's assume, for a moment, that we are correct about Jonbenet not sleeping in her bed on the night of the 25th. JR claims he carried her upstairs, laid her on the bed and took off her coat and shoes. We know this is BS, because 1). her coat was in the car and her shoes by the door downstairs, and 2). According to Burke, Jonbenet walked into the house, helping carry presents. We know that, at some point, she ate pineapple, probably from the bowl in the diningroom. So, my question is this: if we assume all of things to be true, do we have any indication AT ALL that Jonbenet ever even went upstairs that night? Were her black velvet pants ever located? If so, where?

(I should add here that I'm aware of the discussion topic, and I'm working toward getting back to it.)
 
Her being struck from behind makes sense to me, DeeDee, especially if her assailant were right-handed. I don't know if BR was right- or left-handed... does anyone know or remember? Were all the immediate family members right-handed? Do we know?

details:waitasec:, details :dunno:, details... :pullhair:

Not sure about other family members, but it seems that I read somewhere that PR was ambidexterous.
 
(bbm)
Her being struck from behind makes sense to me, DeeDee, especially if her assailant were right-handed. I don't know if BR was right- or left-handed... does anyone know or remember? Were all the immediate family members right-handed? Do we know?

details:waitasec:, details :dunno:, details... :pullhair:
BR was a rightie:
 

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BTW, I ran across someone's site with a few pictures I had never seen before. If you care to look, go here and click on "Photo Gallery".
 
I asked or researched the same question a few years back and was pointed to a pic of B with a watch on his left wrist, so the thought was that he's right handed.

I am right-handed and wear a watch on my left wrist. It isn't in the way when I write, etc. I don't think that's a reliable indicator.
 
These were my thoughts as well, DeeDee. So let's assume, for a moment, that we are correct about Jonbenet not sleeping in her bed on the night of the 25th. JR claims he carried her upstairs, laid her on the bed and took off her coat and shoes. We know this is BS, because 1). her coat was in the car and her shoes by the door downstairs, and 2). According to Burke, Jonbenet walked into the house, helping carry presents. We know that, at some point, she ate pineapple, probably from the bowl in the diningroom. So, my question is this: if we assume all of things to be true, do we have any indication AT ALL that Jonbenet ever even went upstairs that night? Were her black velvet pants ever located? If so, where?

(I should add here that I'm aware of the discussion topic, and I'm working toward getting back to it.)

We have no proof, but I think she probably could have walked up to her room with a parent and gotten into her longjohns. If she was particularly tired or cranky (as any 6-year old might be at almost 10 pm) Patsy may have just let her keep on the white sweatshirt she wore to the White's. It was cotton and likely soft and comfortable. The pink pajama TOP can be seen on JB's bed. t is the bottoms that have not been accounted for (as far as I have seen). Patsy claimed she got the longjohns because she couldn't find the pink bottoms JB had worn Christmas Eve. Like a lot of little girls, JB obviously wore her pajamas or nighties more than once before laundering. Patsy said she kept them under he pillow, and that is why the pillow appears in the photo at the foot of the bed- Patsy pulled it away to get the pj's. Nothing more nefarious than that. As usual for her, she left the velvet pants where she took them off.
 
We have no proof, but I think she probably could have walked up to her room with a parent and gotten into her longjohns. If she was particularly tired or cranky (as any 6-year old might be at almost 10 pm) Patsy may have just let her keep on the white sweatshirt she wore to the White's. It was cotton and likely soft and comfortable. The pink pajama TOP can be seen on JB's bed. t is the bottoms that have not been accounted for (as far as I have seen). Patsy claimed she got the longjohns because she couldn't find the pink bottoms JB had worn Christmas Eve. Like a lot of little girls, JB obviously wore her pajamas or nighties more than once before laundering. Patsy said she kept them under he pillow, and that is why the pillow appears in the photo at the foot of the bed- Patsy pulled it away to get the pj's. Nothing more nefarious than that. As usual for her, she left the velvet pants where she took them off.

So her velvet pants were located in her bedroom?
 
We have no proof, but I think she probably could have walked up to her room with a parent and gotten into her longjohns. If she was particularly tired or cranky (as any 6-year old might be at almost 10 pm) Patsy may have just let her keep on the white sweatshirt she wore to the White's. It was cotton and likely soft and comfortable. The pink pajama TOP can be seen on JB's bed. t is the bottoms that have not been accounted for (as far as I have seen). Patsy claimed she got the longjohns because she couldn't find the pink bottoms JB had worn Christmas Eve. Like a lot of little girls, JB obviously wore her pajamas or nighties more than once before laundering. Patsy said she kept them under he pillow, and that is why the pillow appears in the photo at the foot of the bed- Patsy pulled it away to get the pj's. Nothing more nefarious than that. As usual for her, she left the velvet pants where she took them off.

From photos taken of the basement/laundry area was this exchange between Trip DeMuth and PR regarding identification of photos. PR identified the belt which went with JB's black pants which were laid on the bed. From ACR:
0463-16) TRIP DEMUTH: All right. Go back here. 386, do you recognize those articles of clothing? PATSY RAMSEY: This is her little velvet belt. TRIP DEMUTH: That is photo 386, it is the article of clothing on the right of the picture. What belt? PATSY RAMSEY: Little Gap belt. TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. PATSY RAMSEY: She would have worn to the White's.

IIRC, one poster speculated that JB was undressed in the basement area. Also, the bottom of her feet showed dust. Would it be possible that her pants were placed up on the bed after she was harmed in the basement? Seems like the kids just dropped their pants on the floor, so maybe a parent placed the pants on the bed? moo
 
If JonBenet were undressed in the basement the black pants should have picked up fibers or evidence if they were on the floor.
 
I don't have a source handy, but some small exercise handweights were found in JBR's bedroom. John said they were Patsy's. Strange place for them to turn up.
 
Charterhouse,
Well considering the blood on her pillow,either JonBenet never left her bed or someone placed her there?

For those looking for some insight I'll outline my approach to my BDI theory, it might assist others in overcoming obstacles which are many in this case.


Now a statement of the obvious: three things have to be explained; JonBenet's sexual assault, her head injury and her asphyxiation. No theory is complete with any one item absent.

So whichever theory I consider the above elements must be explained away.

Also I partition the Ramsey Household into two parts, i.e. Upstairs and Downstairs. I assume Upstairs to be the primary crime-scene and downstairs to be the secondary crime-scene i.e staged.

In essence you can ignore forensic evidence from Downstairs unless you think it originates from Upstairs?

Do not bother with the RN etc its staged evidence, it cannot tell you who abused and killed JonBenet.

A very small clue is that JonBenet is wearing hair ties. This suggests, JonBenet was readied for bed?


So in my non-scream BDI, the abuse is considered as a component of BR's obsessive compulsive behaviour, which includes the photographing of JonBenet, and collecting pageant photographs, or at least those which stimulated him. Later his collection would be dumped down in the basement.

It helps to recognise BR as an outsider in his own family looking in on a favoured child, i.e. JonBenet, who he has access to only under specific circumstances. e.g. Holidays, weekends etc.

So JonBenet was being actively abused in the weeks leading upto Christmas, it was something that had become normalized and expected. Thus allowing the violence to follow.

Other People suspected JonBenet was being molested. They probably never realized how dangerous it had become. They knew anecdotally JonBenet was taking part in sleepovers and playing doctors etc, this was causing concern for some parents. Simply because their sons were involved, consider Susan Stine's response.

So BR's sexual obsession with JonBenet leads to him attempting to control events on Christmas Night and failing.

JonBenet either refused to accomodate him or she pulled away resulting in him constraining her neck in an attempt at control her movement, but which constricted her vagus nerve, resulting her unconciousness?

.

I know this post was a long way up thread. But could you tell me what you mean by upstairs and downstairs so I understand what you mean.
Do you mean upstairs as the main floor from the basement. Or upstairs from the main floor where B & JB bedrooms were?
I am assuming you do not mean the 3rd floor with the parents bedroom.
I saw you mentioned this later and I am confused where you think things happened regarding upstairs and downstairs.
I initially thought you meant upstairs as at the kitchen nook as compared to downstairs the basement but then it was upstairs in JB bedroom with the blood.
I know it is me just not understanding but I want to understand what you mean. TIA

Also regarding a post further on I think JB could have gotten her nightwear on and had her hair tied up and then come down for the snack. I have long hair and sometimes wear the top part up but always put the bottom part in another hair scrunchie to keep it out of the way. I could see PR doing that to keep it out of the pineapple for example. When I cook all my hair is back.
 
If JonBenet were undressed in the basement the black pants should have picked up fibers or evidence if they were on the floor.

True, though I don't know if investigators checked the velvet pants which maybe were removed in the PP raid.

The identification of her belt by PR, a belt which was part of her attire that evening, was the only factual indicator I’ve seen that JB visited the basement while she was still dressed in her party clothes. I’ve never seen the results of the dust on her feet analysis. And , like the belt in the basement, the dust doesn’t have to be a nefarious clue, since we don’t know where she was killed. moo
 
I agree those velvet pants would have picked up everything from anywhere.
Just like the dusty feet. All we ever heard were dusty feet.
We never have enough evidence to finish any thought and believe it is true..

Maybe the belt was used as the dog leash that JB was so fond of playing. Who knows.
 
Could the laundry area mentioned actually be the one upstairs outside JonBenet's bedroom? I saw it mentioned once as a room, and Patsy also had a velvet jumpsuit there.
 
I don't have a source handy, but some small exercise handweights were found in JBR's bedroom. John said they were Patsy's. Strange place for them to turn up.

Yes there were hand weights in JB's bedroom. Some folks thought that is what she might have been bashed on the head with.

otg did a study a while back that examines the results of different items that could have been used to hit JB. I will try and find it. It is a great experiment.

If you haven't seen it, it is worth reading.
You can read much of it here: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10226&page=6
but I know it was on WS also.
 
I don't have a source handy, but some small exercise handweights were found in JBR's bedroom. John said they were Patsy's. Strange place for them to turn up.

Hmmm, Meara -- that's news to me, but I'm still not caught up on all of the latest posts in the many threads that we have going...

Maybe JB soiled her underwear while at the White's or on the way home, etc., and PR insisted that she take a bath before she got into clean pj's and into bed. JB refused and PR slapped her & JB screamed and PR just went ballistic & whacked her with one of them. Then the madness began...

Or, PR dragged JB into the bathroom, they fought, and JB was hit by PR and fell against the tub, thereby causing the blunt force trauma. And then all he!! followed....

OR, perhaps BR hit her with one after she screamed while he was molesting her. BR panicked, and hid her down in the basement. One of the elder R's heard the scream, found BR, etc., and all he!! followed...

Any of these scenarios would necessitate one of the elder R's asphyxiating her...
 
I know this post was a long way up thread. But could you tell me what you mean by upstairs and downstairs so I understand what you mean.
Do you mean upstairs as the main floor from the basement. Or upstairs from the main floor where B & JB bedrooms were?
I am assuming you do not mean the 3rd floor with the parents bedroom.
I saw you mentioned this later and I am confused where you think things happened regarding upstairs and downstairs.
I initially thought you meant upstairs as at the kitchen nook as compared to downstairs the basement but then it was upstairs in JB bedroom with the blood.
I know it is me just not understanding but I want to understand what you mean. TIA

Also regarding a post further on I think JB could have gotten her nightwear on and had her hair tied up and then come down for the snack. I have long hair and sometimes wear the top part up but always put the bottom part in another hair scrunchie to keep it out of the way. I could see PR doing that to keep it out of the pineapple for example. When I cook all my hair is back.

Charterhouse,
Basically upstairs is everything above the basement. Why, because it helps to partition the crime-scene into two parts. i.e. one where the actual crime takes place and another where the staged crime-scene is enacted.

I reckon the staging confuses people and leads them astray in terms of what they consider in their RDI theory?

Four things need to be explained: 1. Was JonBenet sexually assaulted, 2. Where was she whacked on the head. 3. Where was she ligature aspyxiated, 4. Why was she relocated to the wine-cellar?

In my BDI I suggest elements 1-3 take place upstairs, i.e. a combination of BR and JonBenet's bedroom.

For 4. the simple answer is to remove forensic evidence, since the R's always assumed she would be found wherever they placed her in the house?


Also regarding a post further on I think JB could have gotten her nightwear on and had her hair tied up and then come down for the snack. I have long hair and sometimes wear the top part up but always put the bottom part in another hair scrunchie to keep it out of the way. I could see PR doing that to keep it out of the pineapple for example. When I cook all my hair is back.
I agree. Yet JonBenet with her hair tied up means something more than the R's version of events.

It suggests another version which will include the pineaple snack, and implies JonBenet intending to go to bed, the magic question is which bed and which bedroom?

Although my assumed BDI might be incorrect, I reckon it is the basis on which to build all RDI theories since all theories must answer those basic four questions?

So you could replace BDI with JDI, since the roles are interchangable, as the same aswers are reached.

Similarly with PDI, except the sexual assault becomes decidedly more difficult to explain away.


So to recap, BR sexually assaults JonBenet, he restrains her manually by the neck causing coma. JR whacks JonBenet on the head with the barbell to simulate an intruder assault, this fails in the visual sense. JR then applies a ligature to JonBenet's neck resulting in her death.

Minutes later JonBenet is moved down to the basement where PR applies the paintbrush to the ligature, so to enhance the staging, along with other forensic items which if left upstairs would give the game away to expected investigators?


So the trick is to ignore the staged evidence and concentrate on upstairs and JonBenet's asumed relationship with her abuser.

Since it is the abuse that was being hidden not her death!
 
The "dust" on her feet means nothing unless it is sourced to a particular room or carpet or floor. Obviously "dust" which contained mold matching the wine cellar floor and/or the carpet in the basement is proof that she was standing on either of those floors the night she died.
Otherwise, it is simply evidence she walked barefoot through the house (more proof she was awake that night when they got home).
It was VERY possible for LE to test the "dust" against any of the basement floor surfaces, including the wine cellar. But O never saw anywhere that they did.
 
True, though I don't know if investigators checked the velvet pants which maybe were removed in the PP raid.

The identification of her belt by PR, a belt which was part of her attire that evening, was the only factual indicator I’ve seen that JB visited the basement while she was still dressed in her party clothes. I’ve never seen the results of the dust on her feet analysis. And , like the belt in the basement, the dust doesn’t have to be a nefarious clue, since we don’t know where she was killed. moo

Whoa! JBR's go-to-the-White's outfit had a belt, and the belt was found in the basement? Since 1996 I've been following this case, and this is the first time this fact has come to my attention? I'm dumbfounded. What was it doing there? The pants remained in JBR's room, or were taken up there; they're in the CS photos. Thanks, quest, very much.

Earlier today I was thinking that perhaps everything happened that night before anyone dressed for bed. Patsy we knew about, and John we supposed, because his shirt fibers were in JBR's private parts, and now the belt suggests JBR went to the basement in her street clothes at some point. Do we have any information about Burke's clothes or their fibers being found in an odd place?

So let's see..... They came home, it had been a couple of hours since the kids had eaten, they were hungry, PR set the pineapple out in the breakfast room and pulled JBR's hair back, she went upstairs, John was upstairs reading, the children started some mischief that led to going to the basement.... John's believable story about putting the toy together with Burke may have been true but described an activity from that morning. Hm.
 

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