Why BOTH Garrote & Head Bash?

[chlban]

Wow....Zodiac. Talk about a frustrating case!
My parents had a close encounter, although they didn't know it until later, at Lake Berryessa.

I know this isn't the appropriate thread, but have you ever posted that on the Zodiac thread? I would love to read it.

I have always been fascinated by that case, it was the first case I remember being terrified by as a child althlough I lived in So. CA. My geography was even worse then, so I didn't fully understand the distance.

 

[chlban]

Thanks!

I agree. It's almost like the garrotte was for the police to notice rather than the Ramsey's.

If the intruder was trying to shock the Ramsey's with a display, the Ramsey's more than likely would have no idea what the garrote was for. The police on the other hand would no exactly what it was for.

Another question. Is it true that the bludgeon wound was a low velocity hit? Is it possible the wound occurred by hitting the floor after a slap to the head?

There was no intruder, the garrotte was part of the staging to point away from the Ramsey's.

As for the head blow, Steve Thomas's theory was that it was a result of Patsy hitting her head against the bathtub, if I recall correctly. It has been awhile since I read his book, but I recall the basic theory. I don't know about hitting the floor though. Possibly a tile or other type of hard floor I suppose.

I have to say, I think this one will be easy after the Zodiac! Sadly I don't think we will ever know the truth on that one.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

There was no intruder, the garrotte was part of the staging to point away from the Ramsey's.

As for the head blow, Steve Thomas's theory was that it was a result of Patsy hitting her head against the bathtub, if I recall correctly. It has been awhile since I read his book, but I recall the basic theory. I don't know about hitting the floor though. Possibly a tile or other type of hard floor I suppose.

I have to say, I think this one will be easy after the Zodiac! Sadly I don't think we will ever know the truth on that one.

Was there any evidence gathered from the bathtub? Any evidence that proves the head bash came from the tub? It looks to me when you look at the injury it was not something like that. It would have been an object smaller.
Was it a cast iron tub? or a fiber glass tub?

TIA

 

[DeeDee249]

There was no intruder, the garrotte was part of the staging to point away from the Ramsey's.

As for the head blow, Steve Thomas's theory was that it was a result of Patsy hitting her head against the bathtub, if I recall correctly. It has been awhile since I read his book, but I recall the basic theory. I don't know about hitting the floor though. Possibly a tile or other type of hard floor I suppose.

I have to say, I think this one will be easy after the Zodiac! Sadly I don't think we will ever know the truth on that one.

This was a depressed fracture, and could not have happened from hitting the floor, tile or otherwise.
In addition, a child of JB's size would not generate enough force to cause a skull fracture of the type seen here. She'd have had to fall from a great height to do that, and it would be a different type of fracture.
The coroner had it right- blunt force trauma. This was a bludgeoning.
However, had she been slammed into something protruding, like a doorknob, faucet....that might have punched a hole like the one seen in the autopsy photos. I can't say strongly enough how important it is for anyone discussing this case and JB's injuries to read that autopsy and look at the few photos we have available.

 

[chlban]

Was there any evidence gathered from the bathtub? Any evidence that proves the head bash came from the tub? It looks to me when you look at the injury it was not something like that. It would have been an object smaller.
Was it a cast iron tub? or a fiber glass tub?

TIA

I said it was Steve Thomas's theory, not mine and was answering a general question asked by a new member. I think she was hit with an object.

However, I don't claim to know for certain every thing that went on that night. I wasn't there. The three other Ramsey's were and one of them is definitely not talking. I am not holding my breath on the other two either.

 

[MyBelle]

I heard someone's theory about JB's murder yesterday on another site and it was interesting the way they explained the presence of the garrote. What they said is that a garrote may have been used on JB prior to the night of the murder. Suppose the garrote was being used not just once but routinely on JB as part of some secret ritual. I have never been able to explain the garrote, which seems totally out of nowhere, but to me it makes better sense to think it was not created for the first time for the murder but it was being used on her for something else previously, and that is why it was there. What other purpose besides death could a garrote have? It could be used to bring a child near to death to condition them and to control them. Or perhaps another purpose. But I find the idea of the garrote being used on her previously to be very intriguing. Then on the night of the murder, something went wrong and JB accidentally died during this process. Then whoever was performing it on JB was forced into covering up what they had been doing to JB. This would be very closely associated with the on going sexual abuse of JB likely from the same person garroting her. And to be clear, this is RDI.

I don't believe JonBenet had ever previously been subjected to a garrote. A child her age would not have remained silent about the pain and discomfort from slowly being choked.

That said, it is not impossible for me to believe that her parents may have engaged in games of sexual fantasy and the use of the garrote in her "beheading" was a message to John Ramsey just as the ransom note was directed at John Ramsey.

 

[Venom]

Wow....Zodiac. Talk about a frustrating case!
My parents had a close encounter, although they didn't know it until later, at Lake Berryessa.

Would you care to share their experience? The Zodiac case intrigues me.

 

[DeeDee249]

I dunno....I am RDI all the way. But I just am not "getting" that this was a sex fantasy garroting or that there was a history of such activity in the family or extended family/circle of friends. I know these theories have been mentioned for years. I just don't see how JB would have been the apparently happy child she seemed to be (despite pressure from her mom and grandmother to excel in the pageant world). Teachers and friends' parents would have noticed something- a certain fearfulness, hesitancy, guardedness. Sadness. And I just can't accept a conspiracy that large that it encompasses the family, friends, school faculty and staff, pediatrician, lawyers, the DA, lawyers, etc.
If you research the Lisa Steinberg case, you can see photos taken at school or play where you see a sadness, a despair, in her sweet innocent face. She was beaten for years by her adoptive father, and so was her adoptive mother Hedda Nussbaum. I'll never forget the police photos of Hedda's swollen, bruised face or the bruises on little Lisa as she sat at her school desk.
I see no evidence of this with JB. Yes, there were some marks pointed out here and there. But SHE doesn't seem battered, as far as her demeanor.
With cases like this, it is easy to get carried away. Here's the way I see it in as simple a way as possible:
JB was a loved child. She was pressured to excel because her mother and grandmother wanted a Miss America in the family (something that both Patsy and her sister failed at). Patsy was driven and she drove JB. That didn't mean she didn't love her. I believe Patsy herself came from a dysfunctional family where there may have been sexual abuse.
Patsy sexualized JB, to be sure, but I'd bet she never looked at it that way. With an older male sibling (two, actually) in the home, and a flirtatious little beauty queen, sex play occurred. The parents knew, but failed to stop it, deciding to let him "grow out of it". It was probably discussed with the kids' doctor (one reason why I think BOTH kids medical records were sealed).
One night, it went too far, she screamed, was bashed on the head to shut her up. The parents called their "friends in high places" for advice and the events of that night took place. They were faced with a dying/dead/comatose child that seemed beyond help, and getting that help might have revealed the sexual abuse and then the dirty secret would be out. Remember, in addition to the internal vaginal injuries, there were bruises on the labia- easily noticed. One of the forensic specialist who studied the case said that if she had been brought to a hospital, the father would have been arrested. This is because he would be the presumed molester, not because he actually was.
In an adrenaline-fueled agitated state, they staged the death to look like a kidnapping/assault, including writing the most preposterous ransom note in kidnap history. They weren't thinking about how it would be picked apart later, or whether the ink could be traced to the exact sharpie pen in the home or the exact pad of paper (with practice note too) or whether an autopsy would show that she ate pineapple or had an eroded hymen. Or that a fluoroscope exam would reveal blood had been wiped from her pubic area and thighs. Or that fibers matching the parents clothing worn that evening would be found in incriminating areas. I actually think they felt that if they provided a VISIBLE cause of death (the ligature) there might not need to BE an autopsy. (they were mistaken- autopsies are usually always done on children, even if the cause of death is known and always done on murder victims as well.
Their defense team was powerful politically- they were "big guns". The DA caved in to their pressure. And the rest is what we are left with all these years later. Both the DA, the BPD and the attorneys all KNOW what happened that night, IMO. Because the actual murder case couldn't be prosecuted, the DA lied about the indictments that COULD have been brought. (I don't know how he got away with it- the same political machine I guess).
That's the way I see it.
And so here we are....

 

[MyBelle]

I dunno....I am RDI all the way. But I just am not "getting" that this was a sex fantasy garroting or that there was a history of such activity in the family or extended family/circle of friends. I know these theories have been mentioned for years. I just don't see how JB would have been the apparently happy child she seemed to be (despite pressure from her mom and grandmother to excel in the pageant world). Teachers and friends' parents would have noticed something- a certain fearfulness, hesitancy, guardedness. Sadness. And I just can't accept a conspiracy that large that it encompasses the family, friends, school faculty and staff, pediatrician, lawyers, the DA, lawyers, etc.
If you research the Lisa Steinberg case, you can see photos taken at school or play where you see a sadness, a despair, in her sweet innocent face. She was beaten for years by her adoptive father, and so was her adoptive mother Hedda Nussbaum. I'll never forget the police photos of Hedda's swollen, bruised face or the bruises on little Lisa as she sat at her school desk.
I see no evidence of this with JB. Yes, there were some marks pointed out here and there. But SHE doesn't seem battered, as far as her demeanor.
With cases like this, it is easy to get carried away. Here's the way I see it in as simple a way as possible:
JB was a loved child. She was pressured to excel because her mother and grandmother wanted a Miss America in the family (something that both Patsy and her sister failed at). Patsy was driven and she drove JB. That didn't mean she didn't love her. I believe Patsy herself came from a dysfunctional family where there may have been sexual abuse.
Patsy sexualized JB, to be sure, but I'd bet she never looked at it that way. With an older male sibling (two, actually) in the home, and a flirtatious little beauty queen, sex play occurred. The parents knew, but failed to stop it, deciding to let him "grow out of it". It was probably discussed with the kids' doctor (one reason why I think BOTH kids medical records were sealed).
One night, it went too far, she screamed, was bashed on the head to shut her up. The parents called their "friends in high places" for advice and the events of that night took place. They were faced with a dying/dead/comatose child that seemed beyond help, and getting that help might have revealed the sexual abuse and then the dirty secret would be out. Remember, in addition to the internal vaginal injuries, there were bruises on the labia- easily noticed. One of the forensic specialist who studied the case said that if she had been brought to a hospital, the father would have been arrested. This is because he would be the presumed molester, not because he actually was.
In an adrenaline-fueled agitated state, they staged the death to look like a kidnapping/assault, including writing the most preposterous ransom note in kidnap history. They weren't thinking about how it would be picked apart later, or whether the ink could be traced to the exact sharpie pen in the home or the exact pad of paper (with practice note too) or whether an autopsy would show that she ate pineapple or had an eroded hymen. Or that a fluoroscope exam would reveal blood had been wiped from her pubic area and thighs. Or that fibers matching the parents clothing worn that evening would be found in incriminating areas. I actually think they felt that if they provided a VISIBLE cause of death (the ligature) there might not need to BE an autopsy. (they were mistaken- autopsies are usually always done on children, even if the cause of death is known and always done on murder victims as well.
Their defense team was powerful politically- they were "big guns". The DA caved in to their pressure. And the rest is what we are left with all these years later. Both the DA, the BPD and the attorneys all KNOW what happened that night, IMO. Because the actual murder case couldn't be prosecuted, the DA lied about the indictments that COULD have been brought. (I don't know how he got away with it- the same political machine I guess).
That's the way I see it.
And so here we are....

The difference in this case and that of Lisa is that Lisa was physically abused and tortured. That is far different than a case of sexual abuse in a child who was too young to realize it was "wrong." She trusted her parents unconditionally but she also was growing out of an age where her mother had total control. The risk that she would say inadvertently reveal something to a friend or teacher was very high.

The Ramsey household was highly dysfunctional. There have been numerous reports over the years that the little girl was tired of the pageants and wanted to stop. Patsy's days of total control were coming to an end. Patsy put herself first. I think this case is similar to that of Susan Smith, who had no problem driving her sons into a lake and proclaiming to the tv cameras that a black guy highjacked her car. Sick women do sick things to their children and then blame everybody else.

JMO

 

[Anyhoo]

I dunno....I am RDI all the way. But I just am not "getting" that this was a sex fantasy garroting or that there was a history of such activity in the family or extended family/circle of friends. I know these theories have been mentioned for years. I just don't see how JB would have been the apparently happy child she seemed to be (despite pressure from her mom and grandmother to excel in the pageant world). Teachers and friends' parents would have noticed something- a certain fearfulness, hesitancy, guardedness. Sadness. And I just can't accept a conspiracy that large that it encompasses the family, friends, school faculty and staff, pediatrician, lawyers, the DA, lawyers, etc.
If you research the Lisa Steinberg case, you can see photos taken at school or play where you see a sadness, a despair, in her sweet innocent face. She was beaten for years by her adoptive father, and so was her adoptive mother Hedda Nussbaum. I'll never forget the police photos of Hedda's swollen, bruised face or the bruises on little Lisa as she sat at her school desk.
I see no evidence of this with JB. Yes, there were some marks pointed out here and there. But SHE doesn't seem battered, as far as her demeanor.
With cases like this, it is easy to get carried away. Here's the way I see it in as simple a way as possible:
JB was a loved child. She was pressured to excel because her mother and grandmother wanted a Miss America in the family (something that both Patsy and her sister failed at). Patsy was driven and she drove JB. That didn't mean she didn't love her. I believe Patsy herself came from a dysfunctional family where there may have been sexual abuse.
Patsy sexualized JB, to be sure, but I'd bet she never looked at it that way. With an older male sibling (two, actually) in the home, and a flirtatious little beauty queen, sex play occurred. The parents knew, but failed to stop it, deciding to let him "grow out of it". It was probably discussed with the kids' doctor (one reason why I think BOTH kids medical records were sealed).
One night, it went too far, she screamed, was bashed on the head to shut her up. The parents called their "friends in high places" for advice and the events of that night took place. They were faced with a dying/dead/comatose child that seemed beyond help, and getting that help might have revealed the sexual abuse and then the dirty secret would be out. Remember, in addition to the internal vaginal injuries, there were bruises on the labia- easily noticed. One of the forensic specialist who studied the case said that if she had been brought to a hospital, the father would have been arrested. This is because he would be the presumed molester, not because he actually was.
In an adrenaline-fueled agitated state, they staged the death to look like a kidnapping/assault, including writing the most preposterous ransom note in kidnap history. They weren't thinking about how it would be picked apart later, or whether the ink could be traced to the exact sharpie pen in the home or the exact pad of paper (with practice note too) or whether an autopsy would show that she ate pineapple or had an eroded hymen. Or that a fluoroscope exam would reveal blood had been wiped from her pubic area and thighs. Or that fibers matching the parents clothing worn that evening would be found in incriminating areas. I actually think they felt that if they provided a VISIBLE cause of death (the ligature) there might not need to BE an autopsy. (they were mistaken- autopsies are usually always done on children, even if the cause of death is known and always done on murder victims as well.
Their defense team was powerful politically- they were "big guns". The DA caved in to their pressure. And the rest is what we are left with all these years later. Both the DA, the BPD and the attorneys all KNOW what happened that night, IMO. Because the actual murder case couldn't be prosecuted, the DA lied about the indictments that COULD have been brought. (I don't know how he got away with it- the same political machine I guess).
That's the way I see it.
And so here we are....

I like the way you summarize the case and I can easily see this scenario, but the actual murder of JB by strangulation would be by a parent, very likely JR, making him the actual murderer of his daughter. No matter what BR did, the adult parent who committed murder should be prosecuted. This is what the case boils down to. Regardless of what his motivations may have been for doing so, JR is guilty IMO of first degree murder. DeDee is wrong. PR did not murder. She helped stage and cover up. JR was calling the shots and PR was obeying. You can just see it.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

John had nothing to do with any of it.
Burke had nothing to do with any of it.
Patsy did the whole thing and did it deliberately.
IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

John had nothing to do with any of it.
Burke had nothing to do with any of it.
Patsy did the whole thing and did it deliberately.
IMO.

I'm leaning your way.

 

[2 percent]

I'm leaning your way.

Do you think Patsy was sexually assaulting her daughter?
My opinion is, if Patsy was sexually attracted to her daughter, assaulting her, she would do it in a manner much more consistent of the way females have sex with each other (if I may be euphemistic).
Penetration seems more like a male thing.

 

[MyBelle]

Do you think Patsy was sexually assaulting her daughter?
My opinion is, if Patsy was sexually attracted to her daughter, assaulting her, she would do it in a manner much more consistent of the way females have sex with each other (if I may be euphemistic).
Penetration seems more like a male thing.

I don't know who was sexually assaulting her daughter but I do believe Patsy believed it was her husband.

 

[Linda7NJ]

IMO the sexual assault seemed childish.
I highly doubt an adult child molester was involved.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[2 percent]

I don't know who was sexually assaulting her daughter but I do believe Patsy believed it was her husband.

What do you think Patsy's motive was? The sexual assault? Or something else?

I think the sexual assault is the center of this, the murder was a by-product. I haven't decided yet if the murder was deliberate or an outcome of a dangerous game.

 

[MyBelle]

What do you think Patsy's motive was? The sexual assault? Or something else?

I think the sexual assault is the center of this, the murder was a by-product. I haven't decided yet if the murder was deliberate or an outcome of a dangerous game.

The oldest motive on the book: revenge. I think her husband was ready to move on and she made sure he stayed by her side.

 

[chlban]

The oldest motive on the book: revenge. I think her husband was ready to move on and she made sure he stayed by her side.

By murdering his daughter? How would that make John not "move on"?

 

[MyBelle]

By murdering his daughter? How would that make John not "move on"?

He didn't move on, did he? Seems to me he stayed with Patsy and assisted in contaminating the crime scene. I don't see any parent doing that unless they were involved in the crime.

 

[UKGuy]

John had nothing to do with any of it.
Burke had nothing to do with any of it.
Patsy did the whole thing and did it deliberately.
IMO.

Blue Bottle 01,
This PDI along with another that describes PR as mentally ill, projecting herself onto objects, i.e. JonBenet, in the real world, makes a lot of sense.

Yet both fail to explain why JR behaves in such a consistent and complicit manner.

JR even wishes to attend some business appointment later that afternoon, leaving his dead daughter behind in Boulder, as he flies off interstate, not to mention the possibility he might have abandonded BR?

There are simply far too many inconsistencies in either a PDI or that of a JDI, e.g. Paty's explanation for the size-12's, yet none were found in the location she cited.

.