Why BOTH Garrote & Head Bash?

[UKGuy]

LOL. The fibers could easily have got on the various items before they were hidden in the WC.

The "crime scene" (where the actual murder took place) is outside the WC, not inside.


To be more technical, the entire house and it's grounds are the crime scene.

Chrishope,
mmm, as per usual you display your erudition in a manner befitting your criticism.

LOL. The fibers could easily have got on the various items before they were hidden in the WC.

I think everyone and their dog already knows that, but can you demonstrate this?

The "crime scene" (where the actual murder took place) is outside the WC, not inside.

Really and you know all this how?

To be more technical, the entire house and it's grounds are the crime scene.

Oh my a technicality, such exposition and attention to detail.

When I attended criminology lectures on my first semester at university I was told there might be many crime-scenes relating to a homicide. These were depending on the prevailing theory to be enumerated as the Primary crime-scene, Secondary crime-scene, etc, ad infinitum.

You have the same considerations with serial killers when they dump their victims attempting a form of staging, i.e. Secondary crime-scene, e.g. Long Island, google it.


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[DeeDee249]

I've never seen the results if any fingerprint tests on the tape. While I cannot believe it wasn't tested, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it was not. We do know that both JR's and FW's prints should be on it. JR said he pulled it off her mouth, and FW (foolishly) picked it up from the blanket, where JR had tossed it. THIS is what happens when incompetent police officers do not control a crime scene.

 

[expat79]

There are those who think that JB may have been strangled initially by a cord, such as Nintendo 64, and the garrotte was devised to hide the tell tale markings of the original cord. So, not necessarily classified as an accidental strangulation, but an accidental death.

And didn't BR take a Nintendo 64 console with him the morning he was whisked away? Why? When I was 10 years old, my life revolved around Nintendo. It was like my full-time job. NOBODY came between me and my NES. So....argument over a video game? Subsequent escalation? How many controllers come with an N64 anyway? The standard 2? (sorry, I grew up with the NES and don't much about the 64-bit machines). Different cord used to cause the strangulation? Has this route ever been explored?

And JR claimed BR was playing with a model train the evening of the murder? When I was a kid, no way would I be playing with some lame train set when I just got a brand new gaming system.

otg, I'd like your take on this!

 

[otg]

There are those who think that JB may have been strangled initially by a cord, such as Nintendo 64, and the garrotte was devised to hide the tell tale markings of the original cord. So, not necessarily classified as an accidental strangulation, but an accidental death.

And didn't BR take a Nintendo 64 console with him the morning he was whisked away? Why? When I was 10 years old, my life revolved around Nintendo. It was like my full-time job. NOBODY came between me and my NES. So....argument over a video game? Subsequent escalation? How many controllers come with an N64 anyway? The standard 2? (sorry, I grew up with the NES and don't much about the 64-bit machines). Different cord used to cause the strangulation? Has this route ever been explored?

And JR claimed BR was playing with a model train the evening of the murder? When I was a kid, no way would I be playing with some lame train set when I just got a brand new gaming system.

otg, I'd like your take on this!

You got me looking into old sources, expat, for this reason: Somehow, I always thought of his new Nintendo as being a handheld GameBoy, because it was reported that on the drive over to the Whites’ house, he was “content to play with his Nintendo” on the way. But in one of the Ramsey authored books (which I don’t own), they wrote that BR had gotten a new Nintendo-64 for Christmas. Perhaps he had both, but it doesn’t really matter. The question is really whether or not something else (anything) could have been used to strangle her. Of course, it’s possible -- but it would have to be something that would be almost exactly the same width of the cord, and then it would have to be placed around her neck in the exact same location as the “other” ligature (whatever that might have been). All this I would have to doubt, but I wouldn’t say it isn’t possible. The question would be then, why do that? Would the Nintendo cord point to someone specifically they wanted to protect or shield from suspicion? Even that I would have to doubt because anyone could have picked up the controller cord and used it.

There are (IMO) two strangulation marks. Besides the one where the cord was found wrapped around her neck and imbedded in the furrow, there is also another line below it shown in the autopsy photos. If you’ve seen them, it is a white line about 2” below the furrow in the front, and it goes upward toward the back of her neck. It is sometimes called an “argent line”. But it doesn’t show up in the photo of the back of her neck. It could be that it doesn’t show up in the back because it converges into where the ligature furrow is, or it could be because the cord was pulled away from her neck in the back while she died. If that is the reason, it would be the well-known inverted “V” typically found in suspensions. I believe this white line is from the initial strangulation. It indicates that something was around her neck for a period of time after death during the blanching phase of postmortem changes. But it wasn’t there long enough for a furrow to have been formed, which mostly occurs over a period of hours after death while swelling occurs around it. There is also a noted grouping of petechial hemorrhages in the front of her neck that lies between the two areas. I believe this is where the cord rolled over her Adam’s apple into the higher position causing the surface capillaries to burst and appear on the surface. From Pathology of Neck Injury, by Peter Vanezis:

"It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck."
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[UKGuy]

You got me looking into old sources, expat, for this reason: Somehow, I always thought of his new Nintendo as being a handheld GameBoy, because it was reported that on the drive over to the Whites’ house, he was “content to play with his Nintendo” on the way. But in one of the Ramsey authored books (which I don’t own), they wrote that BR had gotten a new Nintendo-64 for Christmas. Perhaps he had both, but it doesn’t really matter. The question is really whether or not something else (anything) could have been used to strangle her. Of course, it’s possible -- but it would have to be something that would be almost exactly the same width of the cord, and then it would have to be placed around her neck in the exact same location as the “other” ligature (whatever that might have been). All this I would have to doubt, but I wouldn’t say it isn’t possible. The question would be then, why do that? Would the Nintendo cord point to someone specifically they wanted to protect or shield from suspicion? Even that I would have to doubt because anyone could have picked up the controller cord and used it.

There are (IMO) two strangulation marks. Besides the one where the cord was found wrapped around her neck and imbedded in the furrow, there is also another line below it shown in the autopsy photos. If you’ve seen them, it is a white line about 2” below the furrow in the front, and it goes upward toward the back of her neck. It is sometimes called an “argent line”. But it doesn’t show up in the photo of the back of her neck. It could be that it doesn’t show up in the back because it converges into where the ligature furrow is, or it could be because the cord was pulled away from her neck in the back while she died. If that is the reason, it would be the well-known inverted “V” typically found in suspensions. I believe this white line is from the initial strangulation. It indicates that something was around her neck for a period of time after death during the blanching phase of postmortem changes. But it wasn’t there long enough for a furrow to have been formed, which mostly occurs over a period of hours after death while swelling occurs around it. There is also a noted grouping of petechial hemorrhages in the front of her neck that lies between the two areas. I believe this is where the cord rolled over her Adam’s apple into the higher position causing the surface capillaries to burst and appear on the surface. From Pathology of Neck Injury, by Peter Vanezis:

"It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck."
​

otg,
IMO the marks on JonBenet's neck, other than the circumferential furrow, represent the initial asphyxiation which caused JonBenet to lose conciousness.

The ligature plus broken paintbrush is pure staging its purpose is to mask the prior asphyxiation.

Read the AR where Coroner Meyer cites the Cause of Death: Asphyxia by Strangulation.

i.e. not Ligature Strangulation.

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[txsvicki]

I thought the white line on the neck was from the shirt, because there are similar white lines from the longjohns or panties on the waist.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

There was no staging for police. IMO.

 

[DeeDee249]

If the white mark came from the ligature, that particular mark had to have been made after she died during the blanching phase of livor mortis. The red furrows were made while she was alive. It is also possible the white mark was made by folds of skin - in one autopsy photo you can clearly see how her skin folded over on her throat. This is yet another determination that the coroner failed to make.

 

[BOESP]

I think it is safe to say the strangulation was by ligature:

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

First of all it is incorrect to assume it was a garrote so the question is misleading IMO. Second there were three attacks not two. The bruises on the lower front neck indicate an initial strangulation preceeding the final position of the neck ligature. The lack of external swelling and small amount of internal bleeding coupled with petecchial hemorrhages suggests the head blow followed the strangulation.

So the question should be: Why a strangulation, head blow and neck ligature?

My opinion is:

1. There was an initial strangulation followed by a head blow and then application of the neck ligature. Or:

2. The was an intial strangulation followed by the application of the neck ligature and then a head blow.

And, it is my opinion that the application of the neck ligature was not for strangulation or for a staged strangulation but for the purpose of suspension.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Jessica Ridgeway's killer was recently sentenced, and at the hearing, we found out some significant information about her murder that was not known previously. It made me wonder if there is information about what happened that night that has never been released? However, in her case, there was a gag order from the time of the arrest to when her killer pleaded guilty, so it might not have been possible to release the information earlier.

 

[Mama2JML]

I think you all need a redneck's opinion on the fibers on the tape. I've used duct tape for over 20 years for everything. I've also left fiber or fingerprint evidence all over WV. Most of the times I have used duct tape, it was a short piece. When I di, I usually pull out the lenght I want, tear it off, and stick it to my jeans leg, or sometimes my shirt. I would also say this proves that the perps wore gloves. Just try to tear off a piece of duct tape, and stick it to something else, without leaving fingerprints on it. I don't think it can be done. Funny no one mentioned any prints on the piece of tape. Maybe that is why JR pulled it off. To explain away any prints found on it. I guess BPD never checked it for prints, just fibers.

Interesting thoughts. I believe the tape was also handled by FW Jr.

 

[otg]

otg,
IMO the marks on JonBenet's neck, other than the circumferential furrow, represent the initial asphyxiation which caused JonBenet to lose conciousness.

If we disregard the head blow, or believe it came after the strangulation, I would agree with that. As it is though, I believe the head blow came first and that it caused unconsciousness before the ligature caused asphyxia.

The ligature plus broken paintbrush is pure staging its purpose is to mask the prior asphyxiation.

I agree that the paintbrush was added after she had already been strangled with the cord. But since the cord caused the strangulation (IMO), I couldn’t go as far as to say the entire thing was staging. I also think that where the cord was found on her neck, it didn’t mask the area that is (to me) an indication of where it initially strangled her (the white line).

Read the AR where Coroner Meyer cites the Cause of Death: Asphyxia by Strangulation.

i.e. not Ligature Strangulation.
.

I think you’re making an incorrect conclusion due to some misconception. Maybe going over some of the terms used would be helpful, especially for some of the people who've been here less time than you and I.

Asphyxia is generally regarded as the blockage of oxygen to the body, either by blocking the blood which carries oxygen, or by restriction of the air from which oxygen is extracted. (I have to say “generally regarded” because use of the word has evolved from its original intent in its Greek origin.)

Traditionally, conditions leading to asphyxia have included breathing an oxygen-deficient atmosphere or interference with the act of breathing. In that context, conditions that were thought at one time to involve airway compromise are now recognized as actually involving restriction of blood flow (such as ligature strangulation, hanging, and throttling) and continue to be classified as asphyxia.

Asphyxia can be caused by choking, suffocation, strangulation, harmful breathing atmosphere, and certain diseases. Choking is a blockage of the airway from something like food. Suffocation is where breathing is stopped by external pressure (think: a pillow, a hand, or even a heavy weight on the chest preventing respiration -- “burking”, so-called from the Burke and Hare murders in Scotland). Strangulation is constriction of a body part (in this case, the neck) so as to cut off the flow of blood or air. Atmospheric asphyxia is caused from insufficient oxygen in the breathing air (think: carbon monoxide poisoning, confined space, even drowning). Think of the person who places a plastic bag over his/her head and continues breathing the same airspace until the oxygen is depleted. This too is a form of atmospheric asphyxia.

With the indications of oxygen depletion found during an autopsy, the coroner can rule the cause of death as being asphyxia. Determination of what caused the asphyxia (whether that is drowning, manual strangulation, ligature strangulation, suffocation, carbon monoxide, etc.) is the manner of death. So in JonBenet’s AR, Dr. Meyer determined that the cause of death was asphyxia, and the manner of death was ligature strangulation. Even though he doesn’t repeat the word ligature in his summary judgment which is the result of his examination and the results from testing (the clinicopathological correlation) in which he summarizes the cause and manner of death, he had already stated it in the previous detailed list of injuries. And of course, he also relates that the head injuries were associated with the body responses seen from the strangulation. (BTW, the above link has 19 sections linked on the left side that go into detail about what should be included in an AR.)

 

[Anyhoo]

I think you all need a redneck's opinion on the fibers on the tape. I've used duct tape for over 20 years for everything. I've also left fiber or fingerprint evidence all over WV. Most of the times I have used duct tape, it was a short piece. When I di, I usually pull out the lenght I want, tear it off, and stick it to my jeans leg, or sometimes my shirt. I would also say this proves that the perps wore gloves. Just try to tear off a piece of duct tape, and stick it to something else, without leaving fingerprints on it. I don't think it can be done. Funny no one mentioned any prints on the piece of tape. Maybe that is why JR pulled it off. To explain away any prints found on it. I guess BPD never checked it for prints, just fibers.

I would find it hard to believe that BPD would not check for prints on the duct tape. I think that would be sop.

 

[UKGuy]

If we disregard the head blow, or believe it came after the strangulation, I would agree with that. As it is though, I believe the head blow came first and that it caused unconsciousness before the ligature caused asphyxia.


I agree that the paintbrush was added after she had already been strangled with the cord. But since the cord caused the strangulation (IMO), I couldn’t go as far as to say the entire thing was staging. I also think that where the cord was found on her neck, it didn’t mask the area that is (to me) an indication of where it initially strangled her (the white line).


I think you’re making an incorrect conclusion due to some misconception. Maybe going over some of the terms used would be helpful, especially for some of the people who've been here less time than you and I.

Asphyxia is generally regarded as the blockage of oxygen to the body, either by blocking the blood which carries oxygen, or by restriction of the air from which oxygen is extracted. (I have to say “generally regarded” because use of the word has evolved from its original intent in its Greek origin.)

Traditionally, conditions leading to asphyxia have included breathing an oxygen-deficient atmosphere or interference with the act of breathing. In that context, conditions that were thought at one time to involve airway compromise are now recognized as actually involving restriction of blood flow (such as ligature strangulation, hanging, and throttling) and continue to be classified as asphyxia.

Asphyxia can be caused by choking, suffocation, strangulation, harmful breathing atmosphere, and certain diseases. Choking is a blockage of the airway from something like food. Suffocation is where breathing is stopped by external pressure (think: a pillow, a hand, or even a heavy weight on the chest preventing respiration -- “burking”, so-called from the Burke and Hare murders in Scotland). Strangulation is constriction of a body part (in this case, the neck) so as to cut off the flow of blood or air. Atmospheric asphyxia is caused from insufficient oxygen in the breathing air (think: carbon monoxide poisoning, confined space, even drowning). Think of the person who places a plastic bag over his/her head and continues breathing the same airspace until the oxygen is depleted. This too is a form of atmospheric asphyxia.

With the indications of oxygen depletion found during an autopsy, the coroner can rule the cause of death as being asphyxia. Determination of what caused the asphyxia (whether that is drowning, manual strangulation, ligature strangulation, suffocation, carbon monoxide, etc.) is the manner of death. So in JonBenet’s AR, Dr. Meyer determined that the cause of death was asphyxia, and the manner of death was ligature strangulation. Even though he doesn’t repeat the word ligature in his summary judgment which is the result of his examination and the results from testing (the clinicopathological correlation) in which he summarizes the cause and manner of death, he had already stated it in the previous detailed list of injuries. And of course, he also relates that the head injuries were associated with the body responses seen from the strangulation. (BTW, the above link has 19 sections linked on the left side that go into detail about what should be included in an AR.)

otg,
Thanks for the asphyxia summary. What I am attempting to highlight is that the use of the ligature does not preclude prior manual strangulation.

As it is though, I believe the head blow came first and that it caused unconsciousness before the ligature caused asphyxia.

You could be correct. Since it seems the most logical sequence. Yet I have my doubts.

Why would anyone whack JonBenet with such force immediately after molesting her?

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[txsvicki]

JonBenet certainly wasn't an adult, but there have been so many women knocked in the head, drug off into a vehicle, raped, then finally strangled. I finally downloaded Kolar's book, but it's hard for me to tell if he thinks the same person did both injuries. If a second person applied the ligature could they have been setting up a similar sexual assault, but then decided to add the kidnap/hating John ransom note? Kolar doesn't mention the jacket fibers being in the knots, but on the cords.

 

[UKGuy]

JonBenet certainly wasn't an adult, but there have been so many women knocked in the head, drug off into a vehicle, raped, then finally strangled. I finally downloaded Kolar's book, but it's hard for me to tell if he thinks the same person did both injuries. If a second person applied the ligature could they have been setting up a similar sexual assault, but then decided to add the kidnap/hating John ransom note? Kolar doesn't mention the jacket fibers being in the knots, but on the cords.

txsvicki,
Thats why I have doubts. You outline the assumed sequence, i.e. whack on the head, relocation of unconcious female followed by a sexual assault.

Yet with JonBenet this sequence is reversed, how so?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

txsvicki,
Thats why I have doubts. You outline the assumed sequence, i.e. whack on the head, relocation of unconcious female followed by a sexual assault.

Yet with JonBenet this sequence is reversed, how so?


.

Sexual assault, scream, bash on the head.

 

[Arnie M]

I think you all need a redneck's opinion on the fibers on the tape. I've used duct tape for over 20 years for everything. I've also left fiber or fingerprint evidence all over WV. Most of the times I have used duct tape, it was a short piece. When I di, I usually pull out the lenght I want, tear it off, and stick it to my jeans leg, or sometimes my shirt. I would also say this proves that the perps wore gloves. Just try to tear off a piece of duct tape, and stick it to something else, without leaving fingerprints on it. I don't think it can be done. Funny no one mentioned any prints on the piece of tape. Maybe that is why JR pulled it off. To explain away any prints found on it. I guess BPD never checked it for prints, just fibers.

I am glad you pointed that out ..... I have used lots of duct tape at work and at home .... as you know it can be miserable stuff to tear off and most people do the same .... let it rest on their shirt or pant leg , tear off a portion , and roll the remainder back up.

Patsy could easily have used the tape at a previous time .... the only wild card is she would have to be wearing the identical red clothing , and the other thing is the original roll of tape was never found in the house so that adds to the mystery.

Another thing I do not find unusual is that fibers from JR's sweater were found ..... the whole house should have fibers from all the family , all over the place , all the time.

And all the speculation that Jonbenet had been "garotted" many previous times in some kind of sex play ..... no way that could have happened without numerous rope marks on her neck numerous times .... everybody and anybody would have spotted it.

Same as the tiny traces of unknown touch DNA .... every one of our homes and contents will have all kinds of touch DNA from everyone we have encountered , even from the store clerk who handled our purchase or the factory worker who touched the item , or the hundreds of people who may have picked it up and set it down in a store .... unknown touch DNA should be expected at every scene

I happen to think the Ramseys were involved but to me those bits of evidence do not prove anything nefarious.

Most damning for the Ramseys is the almost complete lack of evidence of a stranger - intruder .... and for that reason they have always been under an umbrella of suspicion.

 

[UKGuy]

Sexual assault, scream, bash on the head.

DeeDee249,
Could be. I'm 50:50 on either scenario. If its the scream version then issues regarding timing and having something to hand that can deliver the blow to the skull in a situation where a sexual assault is current arise.

Does your version assume JonBenet was whacked on the head from behind, i.e. she was possibly moving away from her assailant at the time of the blow?

.