Why doesn't anyone think it could've been John.

[Lebowski]

hell, if he's a narcissist, he might well have convinced himself that "WE ARE INNOCENT", even if there are a few memories in the back of his mind of himself or PR kinda sorta causing JBR's death. but the latter somehow doesn't count. .... and from there, he might behave like someone who honestly feels innocent.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I have no trouble believing this. John was a womanizer from early days. We know he had the long affair while married to Cindy and hadn't completely ended a relationship when he began pursuing Patsy. But, in addition to that he also seduced young women in Atlanta in way that can only be described as cruelly deceptive, exploitative, and damaging. John was a smooth liar then, and he's a smooth liar now, a chameleon adept at faking emotions and controlling others. He had a very bad temper when crossed, as well. I'm not at liberty to name names but can and do say that my sources are completely reliable.

Based upon your knowledge of this case, and the integrity of all of your posts there is no doubt in my mind that your sources are reliable.

Do you know if BPD was ever made aware of any of these instances and had the opportunity to speak with any of these young women?

 

[Meara]

Can you expound on what he did to the young women?

Unfortunately, no. I wish I could. I have the information but could not find a way to be more specific without violating confidentiality.
I can say that the stories I'm aware of did not involve violence. The damage was from the outrageousness of JR's deceit and his indifference to the effects of his actions. Actually, that's not quite accurate. He seemed to get off on deceiving and devaluing these young women. The ones I know of personally confided their stories to my sources. One of my sources knew John's family.

 

[Meara]

learning this about him doesn't necessarily up my odds that he was involved in the murder and/or staging. plenty of people out there are monsters in terms of psychological manipulation, but would never resort to violence or staging a crime scene.

what it does do is make me think that if he is guilty and/or knows who is, he'd be good at lying and feigning outrage, etc. maybe also at influencing investigators and DA's, etc.

Yes. A good interpretation of the information.

 

[Meara]

Based upon your knowledge of this case, and the integrity of all of your posts there is no doubt in my mind that your sources are reliable.

Do you know if BPD was ever made aware of any of these instances and had the opportunity to speak with any of these young women?

Thank you.

That 's a really interesting question. It could have happened, but I don't know for sure. I don't know how wide BPD cast the net when making their background inquiries in Atlanta. Let me review the main books on the case and see whether I pick up anything.

BPD would have learned a lot just from talking with Cindy. He managed to keep his affair hidden for two years. They would have figured out that JR was adept at lying, deceiving, and covering his tracks. We know he excused himself by saying he had tried to end the affair several times, but that it was a "Fatal Attraction kind of thing." Translation: He told both his wife and his lover that he loved them, didn't care about either one and, when he got caught, cast himself as the victim. Good thing none of them owned a rabbit. His dismissiveness indicates an attitude of entitlement and exemption from responsibility. He did what he wanted to do for his own pleasure and convenience, without regard for who got hurt. And BPD apparently spoke with JR's mistress at the time of JBR's death. They probably had a pretty good idea of his MO.

 

[Meara]

hell, if he's a narcissist, he might well have convinced himself that "WE ARE INNOCENT", even if there are a few memories in the back of his mind of himself or PR kinda sorta causing JBR's death. but the latter somehow doesn't count. .... and from there, he might behave like someone who honestly feels innocent.

It's not too far a stretch. Rewriting history is characteristic N behavior, as are rationalizing and believing one's lies. People with NPD can appear sane and be high functioning, but their internal processes are seriously disordered.

 

[Lebowski]

if i may ask, do you work in behavioral health?

 

[Meara]

if i may ask, do you work in behavioral health?

No, I don't. I did graduate studies in consciousness and psychology (including abnormal psych, diagnosis, and assessment) and worked in spiritual development for over 30 years. I'm retired now. NPD is a particular interest, along with the Cluster B disorders more generally, which I have continued to study on my own.

 

[borndem]

The pineapple incident still makes me wonder...
Burke wanted some pineapple after they all got home, and mom gave him a bowl. He began eating it in the kitchen area by himself.
After mom left, or soon after, JonBenet comes into the kitchen area and tries to get some of Burke's pineapple. He angrily pushes her away, and JB falls to the floor and her head was very damaged.
Burke quickly leaves the kitchen/eating area and gets in bed quickly.
Now the parents (one or both of them) find JB on the floor. Now what do they do?
All they can do is assume she fell due to the push from Burke or that she fell on her own, whichever.
Now they start figuring out a way to make it look like she fell on her own, sparing what Burke may or may not have done.
Just one thought I've had -- we will probably never know for sure.

 

[Lebowski]

i think that scenario fits the facts (?), but is just one of many

i did a deep dive on pineapplegate at one point. i came away unsure if it tells us something important about the sequence of events that led to JBR's death.

what i did find significant about it is that the ramseys might have been caught in a lie, and any deception about JBR shortly before her death is a red flag. not airtight though, because it's possible they misremembered, or didn't know JBR had gotten out of bed or something, and maybe the pineapple turns out to be unimportant.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Thank you.

That 's a really interesting question. It could have happened, but I don't know for sure. I don't know how wide BPD cast the net when making their background inquiries in Atlanta. Let me review the main books on the case and see whether I pick up anything.

BPD would have learned a lot just from talking with Cindy. He managed to keep his affair hidden for two years. They would have figured out that JR was adept at lying, deceiving, and covering his tracks. We know he excused himself by saying he had tried to end the affair several times, but that it was a "Fatal Attraction kind of thing." Translation: He told both his wife and his lover that he loved them, didn't care about either one and, when he got caught, cast himself as the victim. Good thing none of them owned a rabbit. His dismissiveness indicates an attitude of entitlement and exemption from responsibility. He did what he wanted to do for his own pleasure and convenience, without regard for who got hurt. And BPD apparently spoke with JR's mistress at the time of JBR's death. They probably had a pretty good idea of his MO.

Thank you.

We do know that BPD spoke with friends of Beth in an attempt to gain insight into whether or not she may have divulged to anyone about the possibility of having been abused by JR. And speaking with the mistress, I wonder she had knowledge of his "reputation". I completely agree with the assessment at how adept he was at deception. And I think it's an important piece of his personality that he has the ability to excuse his actions so easily.

I had the very distinct displeasure of having to deal with a narcissist whom my FIL got involved with after the death of my MIL. She pursued him with a laser like focus that was obvious to many except him. She on the one hand made him feel like he was the bomb, but at the same time treated him with obvious disdain and spoke poorly of him even in his presence. She somehow managed to weave her spell over him that even when she was belittling him he most often accepted it. It was odd to observe someone who had been a proud man fall prey to her so willingly and easily. The first time I met her what I saw and felt emanating from her was pure evil. And yet other friends just chalked her up to being selfish and full of herself. As a result, she treated me differently that she did others. She knew that I knew and worked to destroy the relationship.

It's interesting how these people are perceived by others and I do think there are different levels of narcissism. As a business man in the corporate world JR had learned to be adept at navigating that world and over the years honed his skills at taking people in. Yet there are always visible signs. And I think in our patriarchal society it's easier for men to get away with their narcissistic behavior as it's accepted as being successful. I agree that BPD probably had a good idea of who JR is at his core.

 

[CloudedTruth]

The pineapple incident still makes me wonder...
Burke wanted some pineapple after they all got home, and mom gave him a bowl. He began eating it in the kitchen area by himself.
After mom left, or soon after, JonBenet comes into the kitchen area and tries to get some of Burke's pineapple. He angrily pushes her away, and JB falls to the floor and her head was very damaged.
Burke quickly leaves the kitchen/eating area and gets in bed quickly.
Now the parents (one or both of them) find JB on the floor. Now what do they do?
All they can do is assume she fell due to the push from Burke or that she fell on her own, whichever.
Now they start figuring out a way to make it look like she fell on her own, sparing what Burke may or may not have done.
Just one thought I've had -- we will probably never know for sure.

The medical evidence as revealed in the autopsy is that the head wound was caused by a deliberate blow, not a fall.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Unfortunately, no. I wish I could. I have the information but could not find a way to be more specific without violating confidentiality.
I can say that the stories I'm aware of did not involve violence. The damage was from the outrageousness of JR's deceit and his indifference to the effects of his actions. Actually, that's not quite accurate. He seemed to get off on deceiving and devaluing these young women. The ones I know of personally confided their stories to my sources. One of my sources knew John's family.

I appreciate your sharing. I must say, it doesn't surprise me. It's sounds like he needed to feed his ego or his false self. A true narcissist. Born or made?
I find it interesting that I feel most thought Patsy was the one who needed to feed her ego. He sounds far worse as his deceit was more harmful to others. ( pre- murder behavior) Where she was more of a gloater.
I appreciate you shielding your source.

 

[killarney rose]

I hadn’t thought much about this case in years until recently. But, lately I have. I posted on the death bed confession thread…patsy, image conscious patsy…. Was the one wearing her clothes from the previous evening on the next day, so it’s likely that she never went to bed on Christmas night. There is the ransom note giving indications that it was likely to have been written by patsy. Now was she up all night doing things to protect herself, or Burke? Then John comes along and I believe if he is guilty of anything it’s damage control.

 

[Meara]

Thank you.

We do know that BPD spoke with friends of Beth in an attempt to gain insight into whether or not she may have divulged to anyone about the possibility of having been abused by JR. And speaking with the mistress, I wonder she had knowledge of his "reputation". I completely agree with the assessment at how adept he was at deception. And I think it's an important piece of his personality that he has the ability to excuse his actions so easily.

Gosh, that's right. They investigated JR's relationship with Beth. I've been at this case so long that I'm forgetting things.

I appreciate your seconding my opinion. For the sake of those less familiar with me I should probably emphasize that my earlier statements about JR are JMO. At the same time, and as we both realize, my opinion doesn't rest solely on confidential allegations. His self-excusing behavior is on the record, and we have other examples of his practiced deception (e.g., telling multiple LEOs on the 26th that he read to each of the children at bedtime on the night of the 25th, then denying those statements when interviewed (per Steve Thomas)).

I had the very distinct displeasure of having to deal with a narcissist whom my FIL got involved with after the death of my MIL. She pursued him with a laser like focus that was obvious to many except him. She on the one hand made him feel like he was the bomb, but at the same time treated him with obvious disdain and spoke poorly of him even in his presence. She somehow managed to weave her spell over him that even when she was belittling him he most often accepted it. It was odd to observe someone who had been a proud man fall prey to her so willingly and easily. The first time I met her what I saw and felt emanating from her was pure evil. And yet other friends just chalked her up to being selfish and full of herself. As a result, she treated me differently that she did others. She knew that I knew and worked to destroy the relationship.

I'm so sorry to hear this happened to your FIL and you - and to the whole family; everyone gets affected. It sounds like a classic case of love bombing. It's interesting that you say this woman "managed to weave her spell over him." In her book; Stalking the Soul, French psychiatrist and victimologist Marie-France Hirigoyen describes the narcissist's effect on the victim's psyche as akin to casting a spell. The alteration is greater than the sum of the N's describable actions. It's interesting, too, that some friends saw the woman's behavior as selfish and flamboyant but not disordered. I've seen this kind of reaction often. Rationalization? Denial? Lack of perception? I find it puzzling.

It's interesting how these people are perceived by others and I do think there are different levels of narcissism. As a business man in the corporate world JR had learned to be adept at navigating that world and over the years honed his skills at taking people in. Yet there are always visible signs. And I think in our patriarchal society it's easier for men to get away with their narcissistic behavior as it's accepted as being successful. I agree that BPD probably had a good idea of who JR is at his core.

I agree that N behavior is often accepted/excused in the business world - even rewarded. The film "The Corporation" documents how corporations themselves meet the diagnostic criteria for NPD. I disagree that "there are always visible signs." There often are, especially for high perceivers, but professional counselors say that even the professionals get fooled.

I'm working on a post that explores whether there's evidence of NPD in JR and asks whether PR's behavior could have been a symptom of his control. All speculative, of course, and JMO but worth a look, I think, especially since many peg her vanities and flamboyance as N traits but overlook subtler clues about JR.

 

[Meara]

I appreciate your sharing. I must say, it doesn't surprise me. It's sounds like he needed to feed his ego or his false self. A true narcissist. Born or made?
I find it interesting that I feel most thought Patsy was the one who needed to feed her ego. He sounds far worse as his deceit was more harmful to others. ( pre- murder behavior) Where she was more of a gloater.
I appreciate you shielding your source.

Thank you, ispy.

My conclusions about JR are my opinion, of course. My observation of him goes back a long way, and my suspicions about him are rooted in the documented case history. For me, learning of those women's experiences didn't raise the question of serious disorder; they helped answer it. Fr. Brown's post about JR's affair at the time of the murder fits the picture, as well. It's interesting that you and several others responded to my post by saying you're not surprised. Some might say it's easy to believe something bad about a person you already dislike, or who is suspected of a crime, and there is some truth in that. I would say your response makes me wonder whether you were sensing something about him at a sub-language level that clicked when it got put into words - more a case of recognition than revelation.

I agree; more people would say PR was the greater egoist. She was a plumed bird. Your contrast of PR and JR's ego needs/behavior is very perceptive - more noticeable vs. more destructive.

Born or made? Such an ancient question. Don't we wish we knew. There's evidence both ways.