Why doesn't anyone think it could've been John.

[Meara]

Cranberry hit a tech Issue trying to post the photos she mentioned, but we made a workaround. Here they are, and thanks to Cranberry!

 

[Rain on my Parade]

borndem, after I replied to you some puzzling details came to mind, so I'm going to modify my previous comment with respect to the location and put some questions out to the forum in general. Thanks for bringing up this subject!

Investigators have said that the events leading to JBR's death most likely started in the kitchen. To me, it's important that they don't think they started in JBR's bedroom or any other upstairs room, or in the basement. But, why the kitchen and not the Breakfast Room, where the bowl of pineapple and empty tea glass were found? Does anyone know what evidence made them decide on the kitchen?

Also, crime scene images show a pillow inside a pillowcase on the central kitchen counter. The image below is a screenshot from BPD's crime scene video:

(view from the Breakfast Room looking toward the kitchen)

It appears to be a standard size pillow. Can anyone confirm?

On a different thread, a WS member said the pillow came from BR's bed, although crime scene images are inconclusive on this point. Can anyone clarify?

One might assume that the pillow was in that location when police arrived on the morning of 12/26. However, we know that many things in the kitchen got moved around during the day, and that the crime scene videos weren't filmed until the night of 12/26. Therefore, it's unclear whether the pillow was there when police first arrived and might be related to the crime, or was placed in that location at a later time and is unrelated to the crime. Can anyone clarify?

If the pillow was found in the kitchen when police arrived on the morning of 12/26, was that a factor in their conclusion that events leading to JBR's death began in the kitchen? Can anyone confirm/elaborate?

Thanks in advance to members for any answers or insights.

Rain on my Parade,
The pillow was on a table in the Kitchen area and definitely did not look like it had a beauty and the beast pillowcase.

Meaning the one in her bedroom complete with bloodstain suggests JonBenet's head or body was on that pillow, suggesting something took place in her bedroom, surprise, surprise.

Which bedroom could the Kitchen pillow have come from?

Might be Patsy was given a hint where the questioning might be going prior to being interviewed, saying she cannot see any blood is almost incriminating given she is then asked about nosebleeds, etc.

IMO JonBenet was redressed in her bedroom and possibly whacked on the head there, resulting in the blood on the pillow, along with other items, that Patsy cleaned and removed, hence she thinks there are no bloodstains in the room.

Since her Pink Barbie Nightgown is stained with her blood, this suggests she may have been wearing it in her bedroom, hence why it was dumped in the wine-cellar?

.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I too think it's most likely that whatever happened began in JB's bedroom. But that's kind of inconvenient to the aspect of everyone being sound asleep and not hearing a thing, in particular Burke whose bedroom was on the same floor.

When they moved JB to the basement, they also moved some things from her bedroom, the pink Barbie nightgown and her blanket. Both items had blood on them. Had they left them in her bedroom, that would be a sure sign that at least part of what happened that night occurred in her bedroom. IMO they moved these items to the basement to support their premise that the basement was where everything happened....which was located far enough away from the rest of the "sleeping" family to support their claims of not hearing anything. Why the pillow with a spot of blood was left in the kitchen is interesting. An oversight maybe? Some things just didn't make a lot of sense, but I think they just ran out of time.

 

[Meara]

Following up on my commitment to find sources for the “started in the kitchen” theory, I found it mentioned on p. 559 of PMPT (Kindle ed. ) that in the early weeks of the investigation this was the theory favored by detectives working the case. I’m not arguing for it, just saying this is what Schiller reported. I’ll keep looking.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I am not anywhere near as knowledgeable about the case as a lot of you so have mercy on me but on the night of the homicide, Patsy would have been weak from having undergone chemo. Also, in the CBS series demo, the child who plays Burke is repeatedly striking a skull replica that remains upright and immobile. The actor wails on the faux skull continuously until he gets the desired result and again, the skull replica doesn't topple.

Wouldn't the only adult male who was present in the home be the one most likely to have had the physical strength to have delivered the head blow?

There are too many unknown factors to make that assumption IMHO. We dont know what the actual murder weapon was, we dont know the positioning of JB or the assailant. For example, if JB was restrained on the floor, and BR was standing over her, his strength, the weight of the weapon, all play into how much damage would occur. Think of a can of peas falling on your foot from the bottom shelf, then think of the same can of peas falling from the roof on your head. Its the same little can but a huge difference in injuries.

 

[Lebowski]

one specific mental image i've gotten from time to time is BR throwing the flashlight down the stairs at her, and the added force of it hitting her from that height contributing to the head injury.

i've seen siblings do things like that, not intending to kill them or even imagining they might do so. similar things happened in my house growing up (no serious injuries). kids argue and sometimes they throw stuff and sometimes the stuff they throw is more dangerous than they realize.

this scenario makes it easier to account for BR producing that amount of force. it also makes it easier to account for how the flashlight itself apparently encountered enough force to bust open. what makes me say it busted open? well why were the flashlight batteries wiped down? also, IIRC, there was a puddle of urine at the bottom of the stairs (?), which IIUC could be consistent with her either dying there (from the strangulation) or receiving the head injury there.

 

[borndem]

It was Patsy's hand writing... so she was at least involved. I think it was 100% her

Certainly some, all 3, or one were/was involved...
I still think that the pineapple business had something to do with it, i.e., Burke was in the kitchen/breakfast area eating the pineapple, and here comes his sister, wanting some of the pineapple.
Burke refused and probably hit her with the flashlight -- not to kill her, but just to get her away from his pineapple. She fell and her head was split open when she hit the floor.
So now it starts... What can the parents do now?
They start to make things look like an outsider did it. Patsy's long note was done in her agony, and she just couldn't stop writing and writing.
They had a lot of work to do -- so they figured a way to make it look like some outsider did it.

This case will never, IMO, be solved.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Possible, but it would be against every parental instinct. A dead child is inconceivable to a parent. The denial and cognitive dissonance and fundamental urge to get help for an injured child... There is no logic or rational thought. You call 911 in a split instant. There is no, "hey, wait, let's think this through." You aren't capable in that moment, the world closes in and you don't see or hear anything but the child. In my case, when my son died, I never heard any sirens, and there were at least 5 emergency vehicles. There were things I didn't see, that I only know of because of what first responders told me. You aren't thinking about how or why, the only thought in your head is saving that child. My other children didn't even enter my mind until responders asked about them.

I just can't see a normal, bonded, loving parent taking the time to think through the possibility and ramifications of another child being responsible. Even if it did occur to them, they still would do everything to save their daughter. The instinct and denial would just be too strong, even if the outcome was obvious.

The only way I can see the cover up unfolding is if a parent was responsible, and the other parent was more concerned about losing her man, money, and social status. Same old story we see here every day.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

You are assuming you know what aspects of the cover up were committed by the parents. I believe the cover up was only minimally added to hide the heinous acts that had been done to her otherwise they would not have had to do any staging at all. It would have been an accident but let's say theoretically your other child bound, assaulted, and bashed their sibling over the head, how could you make THAT situation look better? You try to stage an alternate story. If you cant believe that a kid could be responsible for such heinous acts, then you can only come to the conclusion that the parents are responsible. If you apply your feeling that they were trying to preserve social status, imagine facing the world branded as the parents of a murderous child?
If it was true, and Im not saying it is, I think that is far more horrendous than a spouse being responsible.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

It's John who's fibers link him.

John was the cleaner. In my mind PR was most familiar with the things in the home to bring to JR while he did the actual staging. And by staging, I mean the tape over her mouth, wiping the body down, and putting her in the wine cellar.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

One reason for eliminating John is his early morning demeanor. According to Arndt's Jan. 7 supplemental report, John smiled and joked even as Patsy was collapsing in tears in another room.

We've heard about men who murder their wives and soon thereafter sign up for the Playboy channel, and kids who kill their parents and soon go on a spending spree. But in the immediate aftermath they try to act appropriately saddened for their law enforcement audience. At least the sane ones do.

John probably recognized Patsy all over the note, but he wouldn't suspect the truth.

John's demeanor changed to nervous and preoccupied later in the morning. Steve Thomas suggests that this was after discovering JonBenet's body in the basement.

im going to disagree here.
1. JR may have become nervous when he realizes he cant control the narrative.
2. JR is a fabulous storyteller, some might say a liar.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Article from BoulderNews Ramsey Archive

While a coroner's report found JonBenet had been sexually assaulted before she was killed, "experts" have differed widely as to whether the evidence supports previous or chronic abuse. The coroner's report found "chronic inflammation and epithelial erosion" in the girl's vagina, leading Dr. Cyril Wecht, coroner of Allegheny County, Pa., to conclude that there was abuse at least two days before her death.

But others say anyone who hasn't examined the actual tissue couldn't reach a reliable conclusion.

"Poor hygiene can cause chronic inflammation," Dr. Joan Slook, a pediatrician with the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told the Daily Camera. "Some little girls can have asymptomatic bladder infections that can cause irritation in the vagina."

PARAGRAPH EXCLUDED JUST TO SHORTEN THE COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL. IRRELEVENT CONTENT

JonBenet's vagina was not penetrated, sources say, but there were "bruises" or marks in her genital area.

my comment: her vagina not being penetrated leads me to think there are a number of non-sex abuse explanations for bruises/marks.

If I remember correctly, the abrasions were in the 7 o clock position. I think that would not be a self induced injury but perhaps digital penetration.

 

[cenazoic]

BR throwing the flashlight down the stairs at her, and the added force of it hitting her from that height contributing to the head injury.

I got curious about this, and here’s an AI’s response tot the question “what does more damage: a thrown maglite flashlite , or the same flashlight being wielded by someone else?”

Being hit with a Maglite wielded by someone is significantly more dangerous and damaging than being hit by one that has been thrown.
While throwing a heavy metal flashlight like a Maglite can certainly cause injury, wielding it as a bludgeonallows for a far more devastating transfer of energy. [1]

Why Wielding Is More Damaging

• Leverage and Velocity: A Maglite, particularly the larger 3-cell to 6-cell D-battery models, functions effectively as a baton. When swung, the length of the flashlight acts as a lever, allowing the "head" of the light to travel at much higher speeds than a human could typically achieve by throwing the same heavy object.
• Body Weight and Follow-Through: When someone swings a flashlight, they can put their entire body weight behind the strike. Unlike a thrown object, which only carries its own kinetic energy upon release, a wielded strike is reinforced by the person's arm and torso, often resulting in "follow-through" that continues to apply force after the initial impact.
• Structural Integrity: Maglites are made of aircraft-grade aluminum and are designed to be extremely durable. In a strike, this rigidity ensures that almost all the energy of the swing is transferred directly into the target without the object breaking.
• Lethality: A "swung with authority" 4-cell Maglite is capable of breaking any human bone and can be lethal if it strikes the head or neck. [1, 2, 3]

The Limits of Throwing

• Energy Loss: A thrown Maglite is unwieldy and aerodynamically poor. It will likely tumble in the air, losing speed and potentially striking with a flat side rather than a concentrated point, which dissipates the impact force.
• Inaccuracy: It is much harder to accurately hit a vulnerable target (like the temple) from a distance with a thrown object than with a controlled, hand-held strike.

For what it’s worth.

 

[Swirlz]

John was the cleaner.

Blue fibers matched to towel material were used to wipe blood out of the vagina. No match was ever found for those particular fibers although they were believed to have been shed from towel material. Black fibers matched to John's shirt were found in the labial folds. This was a separate set of fibers.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I too think it's most likely that whatever happened began in JB's bedroom. But that's kind of inconvenient to the aspect of everyone being sound asleep and not hearing a thing, in particular Burke whose bedroom was on the same floor.

When they moved JB to the basement, they also moved some things from her bedroom, the pink Barbie nightgown and her blanket. Both items had blood on them. Had they left them in her bedroom, that would be a sure sign that at least part of what happened that night occurred in her bedroom. IMO they moved these items to the basement to support their premise that the basement was where everything happened....which was located far enough away from the rest of the "sleeping" family to support their claims of not hearing anything. Why the pillow with a spot of blood was left in the kitchen is interesting. An oversight maybe? Some things just didn't make a lot of sense, but I think they just ran out of time.

I believe she was most likely killed in another part of the house but I am hung up on 2 things. She released her bladder in the basement which can be an indication that she died there and also the scream if it was heard by the neighbor. What do you make of the release of urine in the basement?

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Blue fibers matched to towel material were used to wipe blood out of the vagina. No match was ever found for those particular fibers although they were believed to have been shed from towel material. Black fibers matched to John's shirt were found in the labial folds. This was a separate set of fibers.

please clarify. Im not understanding your point on the fibers in relationships to my thought JR was the cleaner. Sorry, im slow this AM.

 

[Swirlz]

please clarify.

JonBenet was penetrated with an object and afterward the blood was wiped out of her vagina. There are people who separate the two acts, claiming John was responsible for the wiping of the blood but that that doesn't necessarily mean he inserted the object. But John only wiping the blood doesn't account for his shirt fibers being in JonBenet's intimate areas because it wasn't John's shirt that was believed to have been used to wipe.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I believe she was most likely killed in another part of the house but I am hung up on 2 things. She released her bladder in the basement which can be an indication that she died there and also the scream if it was heard by the neighbor. What do you make of the release of urine in the basement?

I think that things may have started in her bedroom, there are signs that something probably happened there. There are IMO 3 distinct stages that occurred that night. The blow to the head which was the catalyst for what followed, the staging in the basement, and then her actual death by strangulation. I think at some point she was moved from her bedroom to the basement where the majority of the staging took place, as well as her ultimate death as evidenced by the urine stain where she released her bladder at the TOD. If there was a scream which remains unclear and unverified, some have surmised that it was actually PR and not JB. Smit's theory was that it occurred in the basement and the sound travelled outward from the house via an unsealed air duct. This was his explanation as to the Ramseys claim that they heard nothing that night. This presumes that everything happened in the basement, which I tend towards not believing, but that's also the scenario that team Ramsey needs everyone to believe.

I think that it was important for the staging to point only to the basement so that the claim of no one hearing anything would be more believable. It has been suggested that the placement of her blanket and favorite pink Barbie nightgown with her body were signs of care by someone. And while I don't discount that possibility as part of the equation, I think it's more likely that those two items were with her when the head blow occurred. They both contained her blood on them, several spots on the nightgown alone. We know that at some point she was wiped down and what she was originally wearing for bed was changed. IMO the blanket and nightie were with her in the basement to imply that's where everything happened. To leave them in her bedroom or elsewhere in the home would be inconvenient to the "we didn't hear anything" story.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I think that things may have started in her bedroom, there are signs that something probably happened there. There are IMO 3 distinct stages that occurred that night. The blow to the head which was the catalyst for what followed, the staging in the basement, and then her actual death by strangulation. I think at some point she was moved from her bedroom to the basement where the majority of the staging took place, as well as her ultimate death as evidenced by the urine stain where she released her bladder at the TOD. If there was a scream which remains unclear and unverified, some have surmised that it was actually PR and not JB. Smit's theory was that it occurred in the basement and the sound travelled outward from the house via an unsealed air duct. This was his explanation as to the Ramseys claim that they heard nothing that night. This presumes that everything happened in the basement, which I tend towards not believing, but that's also the scenario that team Ramsey needs everyone to believe.

I think that it was important for the staging to point only to the basement so that the claim of no one hearing anything would be more believable. It has been suggested that the placement of her blanket and favorite pink Barbie nightgown with her body were signs of care by someone. And while I don't discount that possibility as part of the equation, I think it's more likely that those two items were with her when the head blow occurred. They both contained her blood on them, several spots on the nightgown alone. We know that at some point she was wiped down and what she was originally wearing for bed was changed. IMO the blanket and nightie were with her in the basement to imply that's where everything happened. To leave them in her bedroom or elsewhere in the home would be inconvenient to the "we didn't hear anything" story.

what do you make of BR stating he went back downstairs to play with his new toy? I know we have differing theories but I try to play them out in my head. Do you believe this is true? Was he distancing from activities upstairs? Im trying to imagine it playing out.

 

[CloudedTruth]

what do you make of BR stating he went back downstairs to play with his new toy? I know we have differing theories but I try to play them out in my head. Do you believe this is true? Was he distancing from activities upstairs? Im trying to imagine it playing out.

I tend to believe that he was telling the truth about that. Burke over the years has put out some nuggets of information that do not align with his parents' stories, which IMO make more sense than what we have heard from them. Their stories have changed whenever confronted with information that is inconvenient to their adopted narrative.

For example, on the morning of the 26th JR tells two different police officers that he read to JB after they got home that night. That story changed to her being "zonked" and never waking up, having to be carried to bed. And yet we also have Burke saying that she was awake and walked up the stairs to the 2nd floor on her own, followed by PR. Burke also said when asked what they did when they got home that night, that they (referring to himself and JB) put on their PJs and got ready for bed.

JR's story after time morphed into JB being zonked and after carrying her to her bedroom and placing her on the bed for PR to take over, he goes downstairs to help Burke put together the toy in hopes of hurrying the process of getting him to bed. Burke has never said this or confirmed in any way that is what happened. He never mentions JR being present in relation to putting the toy together. PR says she didn't know where either JR or Burke were after they got home, or what they were doing.

The inconvenient part of the story is of course the pineapple. I think Burke probably made himself that snack when they got home. PR was most likely doing last minute packing, who knows what JR was doing. But I do believe that everyone was awake. JR has said that the majority of the time when JB got herself ready for bed, she put on the pink Barbie nightgown. I don't think PR got her ready for bed that night, which is why she had such a hard time remembering what she supposedly put on JB. The kids have a little pineapple, then they go upstairs to their bedrooms. JR then is in JB's bedroom "reading" to her. Burke thinks everyone is in bed and sneaks back downstairs to play with the toy. He probably hears some concerning things and then sneaks back upstairs and into bed. He later says that he heard some voices that night but thought he might be dreaming.

 

[borndem]

Hi Meara, A Maglite was on the counter too. Here is another angle. Also a photo of BR's bed. There is a dark pillow there, but no pillow at the head of the bed which is curious.

Just getting back to this...
I do think the Maglite was indeed involved. I think Burke had just had it with his sister. IMO, that strike (from her brother using the Maglite) is where it started.
All he wanted was some peace & quiet, and some pineapple, and here comes the "perfect one."
Burke had just plain had it with her, the "perfect sister" who gets whatever she wants. And no, you are not getting what you want this time, Miss Perfect. Get your own damm pineapple.
I do not think Burke wanted to kill her or hurt her badly -- he was just sick and tired of her every day, every day getting what she wanted. Who knows what she may have said to him. Just dammit.