Why doesn't CPS take away the minor children?

[Abby Normal]

The latest from sleep experts is that early bedtimes create better sleep habits. This sort of bedtime is becoming common among those who read studies and expert opinions. At her age my kids went to bed when they began showing signs (rubbing eyes, etc) which was usually around 7. They are big now (all over 7) and still go down somewhere between 7:30-8:30 depending on the night/activities. Summer we stay up later now that they are big and aware that all the other kids still get to be outside

I truly believe that all the developments so important to children are more easily acquired with proper sleep and nutrition.

 

[Abby Normal]

Personally, I don't care what time a baby goes to bed as long as it gets enough sleep. I used to keep my babies up until 11 or 12, then let them sleep until noon. What difference does it make which hours they sleep as long as there are enough hours slept? I am a night owl, and hate getting up early. So I allowed the kids to sleep my hours until they started school. Everyone was happy.

yes, obviously it's about quantity, quality and routine of sleep and not hours. We just have school to insist we get all the sleep we need by 6:30am. haha. Before that we didn't, but they just seemed at their best "peak" for good sleep at around that time. Who knows.

I think I just mean that 6:40 can be common depending on your circles.

 

[gwenabob]

I certainly believe in proper sleep and nutrition. I just disagree that "good mothers" put their children down at 7 and get up at 6 am and "bad mothers" allow their babies to sleep the same number of hours, but on a different schedule. I think the main thing is "enough" sleep.

FWIW, two of my children are grown and nearly completed with their college degrees, hold jobs, and have families of their own and aren't damaged at all by their parents' lack of enforcement for bedtimes. They always put themselves down when they were tired and got up on time. I let them self-regulate their bedtimes and they did just fine. There was never a struggle. If they were grouchy the next morning, we would discuss what they could do differently that night so they wouldn't feel grouchy the next morning. It worked. My last daughter is a night owl like me, but gets herself up for school on her own every morning. I, on the other hand, have to drag myself out of bed and am still a grouch for the first 3 hours I'm up. I think people are just born night owls or morning larks and you can't program that out any more than you can force a lefty to be a righty. They might do it, but their brain won't like it at all. JMO and all kids are different.

 

[CHICANA]

This statement is patently false. CPS does not have the manpower, the time, nor the facilities to take children, without reason, from homes without any sort of evidence. Does it happen? Yes, but "all the time" is an overstatement. I would rather err on the side of caution in child abuse cases. More often than not, CPS fails to take children from homes where the child(ren) end up dead.

Lisa blacked out, she left three children in harm's way. One didn't make it to the next morning. Has it occurred to the poster that those two children may know something? They may have witnessed something and they may be afraid. If so, they need to be removed until a complete investigation has taken place, and that includes LE representatives speaking with them.

What if one of the family is involved and the boys are afraid they are next. The boys were there that night and they weren't drunk - there's a good possibility they saw or heard something.

It happens too often and workers, erring on the side of caution give children to couple's like the Barahona's or the foster parents of Marcus Feisel. If only children were really safer in foster care. IMO, an investigation needs to be done before taking a child from their home. Isn't it illegal to take a child based on an unfounded (uninvestigated) accusation that can be made anonymously by anybody ? They questioned the boys right after this happened, if they had said anything indicating they were afraid for their lives or at risk, they should have done something then. Another thing that many people don't know is that you don't have to cooperate with CPS. You don't have to let them in your house to find out the fridge is empty because you haven't made it to the store or the house is a mess because you've been caring for a sick baby who currently has snot running down her nose. You don't have to talk to them. You can show them that your child is safe from your doorway, tell them they should check out whoever is making false allegations against you and politely tell them that you are only exerting your fourth amendment right against illegal search and seizure. That right does apply to CPS cases.

 

[Abby Normal]

Gwenabob, I agree 100% with your thoughts on self regulating, as odd as that may sound considering we keep a steady routine. Bedtime has never been a battle for us either. The kids LIKE bedtime, because they LIKE sleep. From my posting habits, it's clear they do not get that from me! I always just watched for sleep signs, bedtime was early but child-led.

Totally off topic, but I wasn't ever meaning to imply that early is the only good way, just that it isn't a bad way

 

[CHICANA]

The latest from sleep experts is that early bedtimes create better sleep habits. This sort of bedtime is becoming common among those who read studies and expert opinions. At her age my kids went to bed when they began showing signs (rubbing eyes, etc) which was usually around 7. They are big now (all over 7) and still go down somewhere between 7:30-8:30 depending on the night/activities. Summer we stay up later now that they are big and aware that all the other kids still get to be outside

I truly believe that all the developments so important to children are more easily acquired with proper sleep and nutrition.

I agree with the experts and yet I'm still up & setting a horrible example for my children. My almost 12 year old son was on a halloween sugar high & was up talking to me til 1 AM on a school night ! Every time I told him to go to bed, he'd have one more thing to say. I just went with it since I know one day soon, talking to his mom won't rank very high on his list. I don't know what Lisa's schedule was, but my kids never went to bed that early. They also slept in my room til they were 3-4 years old so I really don't have a lot of room to talk about proper parenting.

 

[liz b.]

I was a foster parent for many years,in a few different states. As of right now, most states are almost broke, and CPS has had budget cuts in almost every state... it is my understanding that at this time CPS is overwhelmed with cases of severe child abuse and neglect. I mean children who are abandoned,starved and/or beaten on a regular basis.

The two boys did not appear to be abused. In fact, at the very beginning of the case, a local who saw the family ouside in their yard a lot, commented on how well cared for the children seemed to be.

The two little boys have to be so traumatized by the events surrounding their sister's disappearance. Why send them to be with strangers,however well meaning they might be ? MOO

 

[ynotdivein]

Idealist that I am, I want this thread to survive. So I am bumping these two posts as a final reminder. Thread closure and individual TO's are the next available options. Where this post falls is random.

This thread will ONLY work as long as we don't get into bashing one another for our beliefs, avoid name-calling and assumptions (about case players, and about one another), and focus the conversation on understanding how CPS works in MO and how that interfaces with this case.

I think we can do that. Please help prove me right.

Where this post lands is random.

We're doing ok in here so far... I'd like to hear more from some of our posters who have worked in the CPS system in MO or other states, or had other experiences with these agencies.

Also, recognizing that this topic is pretty emotional, remember that keeping "you" and "I" out of posts will help keep the conversation to the facts as we know them and reduce the chance of posters getting into personal confrontations here. Which is a good thing. Because while we might disagree on small matters, we all agree on one thing: bringing Baby Lisa home.

Where this post falls is random, and :tyou:

 

[CHICANA]

I experienced Jackson County's CPS when I had an issue with my teenaged daughter and it's something I wouldn't wish on anybody.

 

[captivagrl]

I was a foster parent for many years,in a few different states. As of right now, most states are almost broke, and CPS has had budget cuts in almost every state... it is my understanding that at this time CPS is overwhelmed with cases of severe child abuse and neglect. I mean children who are abandoned,starved and/or beaten on a regular basis.

The two boys did not appear to be abused. In fact, at the very beginning of the case, a local who saw the family ouside in their yard a lot, commented on how well cared for the children seemed to be.

The two little boys have to be so traumatized by the events surrounding their sister's disappearance. Why send them to be with strangers,however well meaning they might be ? MOO

Budget cuts are in full swing here in FL. In my experience, from a Guardian ad Litem stand point, removing children from a parent's legal custody for a time rarely means foster care. Usually a family member or friend can provide suitable placement for the child(ren). Unfortunately in some cases no one on the parent's list can pass a general home study or background test.

Btw, not saying these children should be removed. Just thinking that a case should have been opened and investigated given Mom's statements, IMO. I believe it's in the best interest of all three children in the home.

 

[CanManEh]

Why would they step in and take the children away .Just because the parents aren't talking to the police and your frustrated thats why u take children away from the parents now adays .Everyone is feeling the same way we wanna bring lisa home but as of right now the parents have not done anything wrong to have them taken from them is she not allowed to have a few drinks on the patio . why not take the neibhours kids away too she was on the deck with her drinking that night how do we know her husband doesn't work a night shift job and her kids were also home alone god forbid she were to have a few drinks on a patio . What a joke. and not funny haha kinda joke either .

 

[Abby Normal]

Sorry if I said/did anything rude. Trying to be polite

MO guideline for children at meth labs
http://www.mjja.org/images/publications/MOguidelines_sm.pdf
First assess need for medical problems from chemical exposure, assess need for decontamination (yes, the child), child to safe place, then start collecting evidence of exposure to chemicals, drugs, abuse, neglect, availability of food, etc.

I know this is pretty much the bottom of the bottom, but I'm just trying to exemplify how "imminent danger" often actually means "imminent danger". If there isn't such a determination, then usually cases are opened and parents are worked with without removal of children whenever possible. And frankly, I believe that is more times than not the right decision.

IMO if LE had evidence they are in danger, they would remove them. We may feel like we have enough information, but they ultimately have way more information and way more experience to make the call. JMO.

 

[Abby Normal]

Budget cuts are in full swing here in FL. In my experience, from a Guardian ad Litem stand point, removing children from a parent's legal custody for a time rarely means foster care. Usually a family member or friend can provide suitable placement for the child(ren). Unfortunately in some cases no one on the parent's list can pass a general home study or background test.

Btw, not saying these children should be removed. Just thinking that a case should have been opened and investigated given Mom's statements, IMO. I believe it's in the best interest of all three children in the home.

Here they are usually removed and placed in temporary foster care while a familial home is sought. Background checks, etc. Unfortunately, many kids don't have anyone step up to the plate to work for them.

I would respectfully disagree that it "rarely" means foster care. But that is just based on my experience. I would say it doesn't always mean foster care. When there is an involved, loving, extended family I would agree. Unfortunately dysfunction often breeds dysfunction.

 

[gwenabob]

I agree with the experts and yet I'm still up & setting a horrible example for my children. My almost 12 year old son was on a halloween sugar high & was up talking to me til 1 AM on a school night ! Every time I told him to go to bed, he'd have one more thing to say. I just went with it since I know one day soon, talking to his mom won't rank very high on his list. I don't know what Lisa's schedule was, but my kids never went to bed that early. They also slept in my room til they were 3-4 years old so I really don't have a lot of room to talk about proper parenting.

bbm

I have a lot to say on the subject of "family beds" as well, and I think the current research would say that allowing young children to sleep with their parents is NOT improper parenting. Most human cultures consider it completely normal and expected. But I don't want to go all OT.

 

[captivagrl]

Here they are usually removed and placed in temporary foster care while a familial home is sought. Background checks, etc. Unfortunately, many kids don't have anyone step up to the plate to work for them.

I would respectfully disagree that it "rarely" means foster care. But that is just based on my experience. I would say it doesn't always mean foster care. When there is an involved, loving, extended family I would agree. Unfortunately dysfunction often breeds dysfunction.

I have limited experience. Thank you for your input. I guess just reading through the threads in this case it seams that some believe that: allegations are made, children are removed from parents, children are placed in foster care, and it's a bad situation. Just trying to convey that child services tries to help children and in most cases children aren't pulled from homes. The goal in cases is usually reunification with parents.

 

[EarlyT79]

I haven't read anything about where the children are staying at this time. Is there a possibility the boys are with other family members? Maybe the children are in a safe loving environment and CPS doesn't want the children subjected to any more stress.

 

[BritsKate]

Indeed. I would be one of them. My father was an alcoholic, he was alone with myself and my 4 siblings on a regular basis while drunk.

Respectfully, my OPINION is that people who are saying that the other children need to be removed because of this drinking incident are those that feel DB is guilty as sin, and she either hid Lisa's body after an accident or killed her or something along those lines. Anyone who feels this way will find justification in their own mind for CPS involvement.

My opinion only.

I'm not caught up on this thread but wanted to ask, out of curiosity, do you feel as though you and your 4 siblings should have been removed from the home?

I'm an ACOA as well (post regarding on another thread) and can say unequivocally I and my sibs should have been removed from our home. With the 'blackout drunk' adult time came a lot of fear, uncertainty, chaos, and unintended neglect. By the time I was the age of the elder son I was responsible for making dinner, doing laundry, ironing and cleaning for my parents. I was forced to parent my parents...because they were incapacitated and unable to care for themselves let alone their children.

It was a family secret no one was allowed to discuss - ever. The one time I tried to reach out I was nine and begged the paramedics to take my mother to the hospital. I was told, when she'd regained consciousness and refused treatment, that there was nothing they could do. Teachers suspected, neighbors were aware, family members colluded but it was different times and long before an emphasis on mental well being of children.

I'm by no means a perfect parent and have made loads of my own mistakes but I would never, could never, allow my kids to go through what I went through. I don't know if DB is an alcoholic but if she is drinking to 'blackout status' several times a week my warning is that a lot of other things come with it...it isn't a parent relaxing and enjoying a couple of glasses of wine...it's forcing children to become caretakers, setting the stage for a potential accident that a parent would be incapable of handling, and possible (if unintended) emotional and psychological neglect and abuse. A lowering of inhibitions opens the doors for all sorts.

Living with an alcoholic parent is akin to riding a roller coaster you just cannot wait to get off...yet every time it slows and you think you might it just picks up speed again.

Based solely on my experiences I do feel an investigation is warranted if her claims of drinking to blackout status are indeed accurate. I am not saying the boys should be removed unless an investigation turns up more. I do feel given the circumstances involved they need whatever normalcy and continuity is available. I just think so much more is possible when you have a parent who is repeatedly incapacitated. It at least warrants a 'look at' IMO.

 

[vlpate]

I'm not caught up on this thread but wanted to ask, out of curiosity, do you feel as though you and your 4 siblings should have been removed from the home?

I'm an ACOA as well (post regarding on another thread) and can say unequivocally I and my sibs should have been removed from our home. With the 'blackout drunk' adult time came a lot of fear, uncertainty, chaos, and unintended neglect. By the time I was the age of the elder son I was responsible for making dinner, doing laundry, ironing and cleaning for my parents. I was forced to parent my parents...because they were incapacitated and unable to care for themselves let alone their children.

It was a family secret no one was allowed to discuss - ever. The one time I tried to reach out I was nine and begged the paramedics to take my mother to the hospital. I was told, when she'd regained consciousness and refused treatment, that there was nothing they could do. Teachers suspected, neighbors were aware, family members colluded but it was different times and long before an emphasis on mental well being of children.

I'm by no means a perfect parent and have made loads of my own mistakes but I would never, could never, allow my kids to go through what I went through. I don't know if DB is an alcoholic but if she is drinking to 'blackout status' several times a week my warning is that a lot of other things come with it...it isn't a parent relaxing and enjoying a couple of glasses of wine...it's forcing children to become caretakers, setting the stage for a potential accident that a parent would be incapable of handling, and possible (if unintended) emotional and psychological neglect and abuse. A lowering of inhibitions opens the doors for all sorts.

Living with an alcoholic parent is akin to riding a roller coaster you just cannot wait to get off...yet every time it slows and you think you might it just picks up speed again.

Based solely on my experiences I do feel an investigation is warranted if her claims of drinking to blackout status are indeed accurate. I am not saying the boys should be removed unless an investigation turns up more. I do feel given the circumstances involved they need whatever normalcy and continuity is available. I just think so much more is possible when you have a parent who is repeatedly incapacitated. It at least warrants a 'look at' IMO.

Excellent post and thank you for sharing. I'm not saying DB is an alcoholic, and I'm not saying the kids should be moved to Alcatraz - I just think maybe they should be gently asked if they are ok - taken to a relative until things are sorted out.

There are indications a dead body was by their mother's bed - that should be cleared up.

 

[Abby Normal]

Excellent post and thank you for sharing. I'm not saying DB is an alcoholic, and I'm not saying the kids should be moved to Alcatraz - I just think maybe they should be gently asked if they are ok - taken to a relative until things are sorted out.

There are indications a dead body was by their mother's bed - that should be cleared up.

IMO, opposed to the drinking, that's the big ticket item here.

For all we know it has been cleared up. They went in for 17 hours, so if there was any validity to that finding, I have no doubt they know. we just have no way of knowing just yet.

But if she is found to have harmed Lisa or contributed to her being harmed, that is the point at which there will be more to work with. And FBI and LE are working tirelessly to get to the bottom of that.

 

[cityslick]

Excellent post and thank you for sharing. I'm not saying DB is an alcoholic, and I'm not saying the kids should be moved to Alcatraz - I just think maybe they should be gently asked if they are ok - taken to a relative until things are sorted out.

There are indications a dead body was by their mother's bed - that should be cleared up.

Haven't read the whole thread, but IMO in most cases it's more traumatic to remove the children from the parents then not. I hear stories all the time where CPS steps in and takes kids away (in many cases where it's warranted) and the kids are flipping out, screaming and crying. I think CPS (and LE for that matter) try to do everything in their power to avoid that situation and in their mind, taking children out of the home is a last resort option. The main question I think CPS asks is 'Are the children being endangered'? At this point in time, I don't think you can answer yes to that question, no matter how you feel about DB.

You bring up the dead body 'hit' but the fact the matter is we are almost approaching a month and LE has not moved on that circumstance yet. I think because it's still (among other things) unresolved, you can't jump to the end result of 'get the kids out of there' yet.