Why I believe that Patsy co-ordinated the staging

[BBB167893]

I was wondering what SBTC could mean in relation to Patsy and thought about she beat the cancer and saw someone else thought about it too on another forum. I think it could be that. In my opinion she felt inferior to her husband or that he treated her inferior.

Meyhanna, when I read that, I immediately thought about Patsy saying how JB was better off dead because she'd never suffer cancer.

 

[wallflower67]

Just curious do all of you have brown paper bags at your house? I'm French so I don't know how usual it is for Americans (I'd have a hard time finding one in my house) but if it's not I'd assume that's someone who knew the Ramsey had brown paper bags at their house. Not everybody's supposed to have brown paper bags. It's in reference to the ransom letter: "When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag".

That's a good point. I hardly ever see anyone choose paper over plastic. I'm pretty sure I don't have any paper bags now. In 1996, though, I probably still thought I was saving land fills by choosing paper. I was using cloth diapers at that time.

 

[Tricia]

That point is the 800 lb elephant in the room. Most important to consider the almost rabid support that was given by the Stines across the years.

You got that right CK. What the hell is up with that?

Does anyone else remember hearing that hubby Stine quit his job so the Stine family could follow the Ramseys? Didn't the Stines move to Atlanta with the Ramseys? HUH???

 

[Tricia]

yaaaawn

Excuse me?

 

[Tricia]

-the ransom note,it's her style,no mention of jbr,Patsy usually called her "that child"
-i don't see john copying stupid quotes from movies,nor write such an essay
-she couldn't help herself and wanted to prove that the killer WAS smart so she used words like attache,etc

-the panties.....i can even imagine how it happened:"jooooohn,quick,we need to change her panties too!!"....and poor John didn't know jbr SIZE.

-the whole drama of the staging....Patsy was a drama queen,John wasn't that complicated,imo

-the 911 call....again Patsy's idea....she needed to act a bit

-the garrote,HER paint brush

-the location...it was Patsy who used to say:"take it down to the basement,i don't wanna see it"


-their behaviour while the LE was there......she cried and was hysterical,SHE needed attention again.

-the priest,i bet that was her idea too,and calling their friends

and so on.......

FGS,everything points to Patsy,how disgusting....

Welcome maya.morgen. I see you are new to WS. Hope you are enjoying yourself.

Great thread by the way. Very good points.

Sorry to go off topic about Stine. My fault. Me bad. Me banned until I post again.

Tricia

 

[Amity]

SBTC
In my liddow head I alway used those letters .... short for:
She Beat That Cancer

That was back in the day..... just after hearing of this terrible crime and no way, no how being able to wrap my mind around the idea that a parent could/would do such a terrible thing.

Things changed. My opinion changed.

 

[Meyahna]

I thought about She beat the cancer rather than others I had read because all the letter is bitter there is the fake ransom note but on a second level a setting of accounts. If it's her who wrote it I feel like she definitely had a long standing bitterness towards her husband. Kinda: "Ok he is successful in his business but what about me? I beat the cancer!". Maybe she was fed up of always being the second one, which sounds very plausible because usually people who have their kids in beauty contests have a need for recognition and use their kids for that.

On another topic I was looking at her autopsy photos and looking at the bathroom, I wonder if the three round spots could be from drawers top corners. Say she would have been pushed or fell on the edge at the top and hit three corners of drawers.
Apparently they could let them open.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jar-bathroom.gif

That edge under the washbowl is pretty sharp. Maybe she was standing up near the washbowl. I mean on the furniture. Her mother could have cleaned her that way (?) And then maybe had violent movements which made JonBénet slip and violently hit from height that edge and corners of the drawers.

 

[Meyahna]

Here is what I mean:

http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/7/11/f_picm_933ce7c.jpg&srv=img37

 

[TexMex]

--the garrote,HER paint brush

-the location...it was Patsy who used to say:"take it down to the basement,i don't wanna see it"

Hi maya

Why would these parents put their daughters dead body in the basement, then call police to the home.


I can't think of any parent who killed their child with a garrote.

 

[Meyahna]

I thought too at first but this was just part of the staging. I don't believe John or Burke had anything to do with it though. JonBenet was supposedely dead when the garrotte was made. See her skull fracture she was probably ko/looking dead. I believe there was an accident (maybe due to anger) and I can think of many parents who killed their child by accident. Then whatever was done with the garrotte was done on a dead body in Patsy (if it's her)'s mind.

I think if it's Patsy she put JonBenet in the basement simply for John not to see her. I think her plan might have been that he discovered the letter then to do whatever possible for him not to go in the basement then tell him to get some rest for the money delivery and meanwhile she'd have got rid of JonBenet's body. But she changed her mind during the night after a better thought. And well who can say she did wrong to change her mind? Years after she's still considered innocent.

 

[Meyahna]

I think the garrotte was just prepared in advance so that police found the body in another location that way.

 

[TexMex]

I thought too at first but this was just part of the staging. I don't believe John or Burke had anything to do with it though. JonBenet was supposedely dead when the garrotte was made. See her skull fracture she was probably ko/looking dead. I believe there was an accident (maybe due to anger) and I can think of many parents who killed their child by accident. Then whatever was done with the garrotte was done on a dead body in Patsy (if it's her)'s mind.

I think if it's Patsy she put JonBenet in the basement simply for John not to see her. I think her plan might have been that he discovered the letter then to do whatever possible for him not to go in the basement then tell him to get some rest for the money delivery and meanwhile she'd have got rid of JonBenet's body. But she changed her mind during the night after a better thought. And well who can say she did wrong to change her mind? Years after she's still considered innocent.

Hi Meyahna

It's been awhile but I thought the autopsy report stated she was still alive when garroted....

Why would the Ramseys call police to the home if they had killed their daughter and were going to cover it up? They could have loaded her on their plane, flown her to MI and staged some sort of boating "accident" where they could say she'd been thrown off the boat, struck her head and died, left her body in the water for divers to find....less evidence...

JMO

 

[Meyahna]

Yes, but when you see JonBenet's skull, alive or not she was probably looking very dead. The thing is of course why would the Ramsey? but it's not why would the Ramsey to me but why would Patsy? She had just apparently beat the cancer, apparently felt her husband thought she wasn't as good as him, she simply didn't want to go to jail and lose her husband and son after what she had already went through and gone out and to give John another opportunity to make her feel she wasn't good at anything. But Patsy probably didn't know how to drive a plane and it's not easy to get rid of a body when you have two persons living with you.

I was looking at samples from Patsy and the ransom one common feature is the bar of the t attached to the following letter, that is not so common that someone does that actually.

Then of course if JonBenét slipped on sthg that fractured a skull I wonder why Patsy didn't simply say JonBenét fell. But maybe she thought her husband would yell at her anyway and/or suspect something.

 

[BBB167893]

Damn, Meyhanna! Never thought of that until I saw that picture.

Why would these parents put their daughters dead body in the basement, then call police to the home.

I used to wonder that myself, Tex. But one day my brother and I were talking it over, and he said: "Guv, you told me that they were going on a trip, right?"

I said, "yeah."

He said, "And just about everyone knew they were going, right?"

I said, "right."

He said, "and it was a private plane, right?"

I said," what are you getting at, mate?"

He said," Guv, think about it. If everybody knew they were leaving, and the pilot was expecting them, wouldn't somebody notice if they didn't show up? Wouldn't somebody get worried and come looking for them?"

From his mouth to the gods' ears! It was so simple.

As for why they didn't ditch the body somewhere, I live in a town very much like Boulder in many respects: small college town, old boys network, socialist local gov't. And there is NO place deader than a college town on Christmas night. Everybody in this town knows my family. They know what our car looks like. Somebody would have seen them at some point.

It's been awhile but I thought the autopsy report stated she was still alive when garroted....

Yes, but would they know that?

Why would the Ramseys call police to the home if they had killed their daughter and were going to cover it up? They could have loaded her on their plane, flown her to MI and staged some sort of boating "accident" where they could say she'd been thrown off the boat, struck her head and died, left her body in the water for divers to find....less evidence...

And just how would they transport a dead body like that? "Weekend at Bernie's" style, perhaps? Tell the pilot, "oh, don't mind JB, she's just tired," right? Somebody would get hinky along the way. Maybe it would be less physical evidence, but it wasn't like they had a hell of a lot of options. And that's assuming they both knew. Burke very likely didn't know either way. And I had a habit of not keeping my mouth shut when I was 9-years-old.

 

[liljim]

didnt the autopsy say the cause of death was asphyxiation with cranial trauma? asphyxiation implies she was still breathing when the garrotte was applied right?

that is something provable in an autopsy, did they specifically say this was the case?

if yes, how does that reconcile for the people that claim she was killed in a rage and the rest was a coverup?

always had a hard time thinking the parents would go so far with the gruesome things they did to her body just to coverup an accidental death.

that garrotte wasnt a fake or halfhearted attempt, that was a vicious strangulation that took serious effort to apply.

 

[BBB167893]

didnt the autopsy say the cause of death was asphyxiation with cranial trauma? asphyxiation implies she was still breathing when the garrotte was applied right?

that is something provable in an autopsy, did they specifically say this was the case?

Pretty much.

if yes, how does that reconcile for the people that claim she was killed in a rage and the rest was a coverup?

I refer you to Dr. Werner Spitz, ace pathologist: "Someone took a lot of time to stage strangulation after she was unconscious."

always had a hard time thinking the parents would go so far with the gruesome things they did to her body just to coverup an accidental death.

I used to as well. But one day it became clear to me.

that garrotte wasnt a fake or halfhearted attempt, that was a vicious strangulation that took serious effort to apply.

That doesn't mean it wasn't staging. Norm Early, former Denver DA said that if you stage a strangulation, you HAVE to pull it tight as you can because you don't want the coroner to come back and say, "oh, this strangulation couldn't have killed somebody."

That help you out?

 

[TexMex]

Damn, Meyhanna! Never thought of that until I saw that picture.



I used to wonder that myself, Tex. But one day my brother and I were talking it over, and he said: "Guv, you told me that they were going on a trip, right?"

I said, "yeah."

He said, "And just about everyone knew they were going, right?"

I said, "right."

He said, "and it was a private plane, right?"

I said," what are you getting at, mate?"

He said," Guv, think about it. If everybody knew they were leaving, and the pilot was expecting them, wouldn't somebody notice if they didn't show up? Wouldn't somebody get worried and come looking for them?"

From his mouth to the gods' ears! It was so simple.

Hi Dave


I thought John was a pilot. You call the other pilot and say you'll be flying the plane yourself.....

I also doubt either parent would know how tight to "stage" a strangulation...JMO

 

[Ames]

Why would kidnappers want their booty toted in a flimsy paper bag anyway?

What if it tore? What if it rained? What if it opened up & the money blew away? And how do you tell if how many bundles are inside IF it's all jammed together willy nilly & not laid out straight? Too many what ifs ..... why tell John to use an attache but then switch over to a paper bag?

They could have easily brought their own bag to transfer the money into AFTER it was delivered.

I never realized just HOW stoooopid this paper bag request really sounded until just now. Oh well, that's what you get when you deal with a SMALL foreign faction... the big foreign factions are SO much smarter.

LOL...you are so funny!

 

[BBB167893]

I thought John was a pilot. You call the other pilot and say you'll be flying the plane yourself.....

If John was a pilot, I don't remember it. Besides, what about Burke? Not only that, but if I were the pilot, it would strike me a little odd that he called me at the last minute, and then his daughter just HAPPENS to turn up dead. Maybe it's just my suspicious nature, but I'd sure get a little hinky.

I also doubt either parent would know how tight to "stage" a strangulation...JMO

Moot point, Tex. Did you read what Norm Early had to say? It's as simple as falling off a log. Anyone could do it. It's just common sense.

 

[Ames]

Yes, but when you see JonBenet's skull, alive or not she was probably looking very dead. The thing is of course why would the Ramsey? but it's not why would the Ramsey to me but why would Patsy? She had just apparently beat the cancer, apparently felt her husband thought she wasn't as good as him, she simply didn't want to go to jail and lose her husband and son after what she had already went through and gone out and to give John another opportunity to make her feel she wasn't good at anything. But Patsy probably didn't know how to drive a plane and it's not easy to get rid of a body when you have two persons living with you.

I was looking at samples from Patsy and the ransom one common feature is the bar of the t attached to the following letter, that is not so common that someone does that actually.

Then of course if JonBenét slipped on sthg that fractured a skull I wonder why Patsy didn't simply say JonBenét fell. But maybe she thought her husband would yell at her anyway and/or suspect something.

If you enlarge the RN and Patsy's sample RN..you will see that neither one of them have an accent over the e in attaché either. At first it looks like the RN has an accent mark, but its only the bottom part of a letter on the line above it, the hook on the end of the Y in the word you. Look at all of the y's in the original rn, almost all have a hook at the end.