Why I believe that Patsy co-ordinated the staging

  • #101
Hi TexMex,
You know, until I was able to definatively answer the many "Why" questions, I was unable to see through the dense fog of this case and conclusively come to terms with the probability that PR was deeply 'involved', IMO.

An intruder, sexual sadist, pedo, kidnapper, murderer could only be fictionally combined and created in the mind of a seriously warped individual, attempting to cover their own tracks and cast the web of suspicion on others. There was never any genuine combination of all of those descriptions involved in the murder of JBR.

There were only two possibilities:

1) someone who knew and hated the Ramsey family to the ultimate extreme and intended to make them continue to pay for whatever pain they had created forever...

2) someone or more than one person within the home/immediate family

Add the evidence and facts of the crime scene and there was no place possible for me to go for answers except within the walls of the Boulder home.

Number two was my only logical, sane conclusion.

AND...if it had of been some sort of sick, perverted individual....after all of that time in the Ramsey home, writing the RN...planning....carrying her to the basement...undressing her...etc. You would THINK that he would have done more to her than insert a paintbrush handle, or gloved finger. No semen was found....SOOOOO...where is it? Yep, she was wiped down...but, how about the (sorry to be so graphic) inside? A REAL sicko would have done more to her...way much more.
 
  • #102
Hi TexMex,
You know, until I was able to definatively answer the many "Why" questions, I was unable to see through the dense fog of this case and conclusively come to terms with the probability that PR was deeply 'involved', IMO.

An intruder, sexual sadist, pedo, kidnapper, murderer could only be fictionally combined and created in the mind of a seriously warped individual, attempting to cover their own tracks and cast the web of suspicion on others. There was never any genuine combination of all of those descriptions involved in the murder of JBR.

There were only two possibilities:

1) someone who knew and hated the Ramsey family to the ultimate extreme and intended to make them continue to pay for whatever pain they had created forever...

2) someone or more than one person within the home/immediate family

Add the evidence and facts of the crime scene and there was no place possible for me to go for answers except within the walls of the Boulder home.

Number two was my only logical, sane conclusion.

Hello angel!

I hear ya. To me the crime scene was totally compromised, so the fiber and other evidence at the home doesn't mean much. IMO the Ramseys did adore this future Miss America and no was someone who has come through cancer gets in killing rage about wetting the bad. So IMO no motive. That's why I have always leaned toward your option 1. With the new DNA it just seals the deal for me. JMO but I think someone saw JB and became infatuated, so much so he stalked them, then killed her.
 
  • #103
AND...if it had of been some sort of sick, perverted individual....after all of that time in the Ramsey home, writing the RN...planning....carrying her to the basement...undressing her...etc. You would THINK that he would have done more to her than insert a paintbrush handle, or gloved finger. No semen was found....SOOOOO...where is it? Yep, she was wiped down...but, how about the (sorry to be so graphic) inside? A REAL sicko would have done more to her...way much more.


Hi again Ames!

I think the plan was to do WAY much more to this kid....like Westerfield did, take her somewhere and carry out his fantasy. IMO something happened, she screamed, kicked, struggled and he got scared and smashed her head then looked for a place to hide the body, found the basement room then could not help but molest her and either strangled her once she moved or breathed or as part of the fantasy. IMO he de-gloved to molest her and redress her thinking you cannot find fingerprints on clothing. Then he left.

JMO
 
  • #104
Hi there!

I think that a REAL RN note would have said.."We have her, Pay us XX million, don't call cops". Somebody that is panicky, and needs to try and point AWAY from themself as much as possible...would write a rambling almost three page RN. Where else....in the history of kidnappings (or UNkidnappings in THIS case) have you EVER heard of a ransom note being left that was almost three pages long?? Where else...in the history of kidnappings, have you ever heard of a RN note being left...but, the perp forgetting to take the person/body with them?? I also believe that the 118,000.00 was used, because it was an amount that John could have easily withdrawn, if it had of came down to that...you, know...to keep up appearances. A REAL kidnapper, would have asked for WAY more than that. And what about the Pineapple....even a lawyer on the Ramsey's side..has called that the..."big bugaboo". It cannot be explained. She ate that pineapple after she arrived home...Patsy's prints were on the bowl...but, YET...they say that she was asleep when they got home. Lets not forget the fact that Burke AT FIRST....said that JB was AWAKE and helped to carry in presents...when they arrived home...and then he said that he had been wrong, that she was actually sleeping? I don't know about you, but....I don't think that I would get "sleeping"...and "awake helping to carry in presents", confused. Fleet said that when he looked into the WC the first time, he saw NOTHING. But, then John disappears for a couple of hours, his absence has YET to be explained....and then...like a miracle...she all the sudden appears in the WC, when he goes down to look. He went right to her. IMO...the body was hidden, and he got tired of the keystone cops trying to find her, so her "found" her for them, after placing her body in full view. He had nothing to worry about...because he and Patsy had their story all figured out, complete with fake RN. Even the investigators said that it was a staged crime scene and the note was a fake.

Ames...I do agree. The ransom note is unheard of in length and specificity.

I just believe the Ramseys, both college grads would be smart enough to ask for a large sum no matter the state of panic. In fact in a state of panic I don't think you think about framing someone else who would probably have an alibi on a Christmas Day. To me the 118K was to signal to them that they had been watched.
 
  • #105
Hello angel!

I hear ya. To me the crime scene was totally compromised, so the fiber and other evidence at the home doesn't mean much. IMO the Ramseys did adore this future Miss America and no was someone who has come through cancer gets in killing rage about wetting the bad. So IMO no motive. That's why I have always leaned toward your option 1. With the new DNA it just seals the deal for me. JMO but I think someone saw JB and became infatuated, so much so he stalked them, then killed her.

OK... question please...

If you discount evidence of the crime scene because it was totally compromised, how can you consider dna evidence uncompromised? :waitasec:
 
  • #106
Hi Tex Mex -
A serious kidnapper would need a simple, to-the-point note. Their business is to exchange child for cash.
JMO


I guess that's my point AZ, that IF they were the authors they would want the RN to appear real/serious, they are not stupid people. But as usual, JMO!
 
  • #107
OK... question please...

If you discount evidence of the crime scene because it was totally compromised, how can you consider dna evidence uncompromised? :waitasec:

Hey there angel..

I don't think the body itself was compromised but the scene--the house, the tape, the fibers. It was not a sealed scene. But no one was playing with JB's underwear while she lay in the middle of the floor in plain view.
 
  • #108
Hi Tex Mex -
A serious kidnapper would need a simple, to-the-point note. Their business is to exchange child for cash.
JMO[/QUOTE


I guess that's my point AZ, that IF they were the authors they would want the RN to appear real/serious, they are not stupid people. But as usual, JMO!

Dear Tex,

...But what you seem to be leaving out of the equasion in coming to your conclusion is:

'One of them' was excessively, the over the top, performing 'DRAMA QUEEN' of the World...

You can not possibly judge any aspect of this case, exclude that ONE fact and come to a rational, logical conclusion as to who is guilty in this case.
 
  • #109
...But what you seem to be leaving out of the equasion in coming to your conclusion is:

'One of them' was excessively, the over the top, performing 'DRAMA QUEEN' of the World...

You can not possibly judge any aspect of this case, exclude that ONE fact and come to a rational, logical conclusion as to who is guilty in this case.

But Angel...

It does not matter how Dramatic Miss Patsy was. Her DNA nor her family members is involved in the case. They've been scientifically excluded.

Do I think she was dramatic? Perhaps. Do I think dressing up little kids to look like grown women is a good idea? No. In fact, I think that is what attracted her killer, who left three spots of DNA at least behind, to her.
 
  • #110
Hey there angel..

I don't think the body itself was compromised but the scene--the house, the tape, the fibers. It was not a sealed scene. But no one was playing with JB's underwear while she lay in the middle of the floor in plain view.

Ok, I think I understand your point now. So you feel that the dna intermingled in the drop of blood is uncompromised, but you agree that we must discount the touch dna on her clothing, as it is among the compromised evidence?

Two other questions about the dna intermingled with her drop of blood?

Do you think it is possible that the dna intermingled in her blood could have been already present on the object inserted into her which caused the bleeding in the first place?

If so, this was a 'used paintbrush' and that dna is not necessarily that of the killer. Right?
 
  • #111
Ok, I think I understand your point now. So you feel that the dna intermingled in the drop of blood is uncompromised, but you agree that we must discount the touch dna on her clothing, as it is among the compromised evidence?

Two other questions about the dna intermingled with her drop of blood?

Do you think it is possible that the dna intermingled in her blood could have been already present on the object inserted into her which caused the bleeding in the first place?

If so, this was a 'used paintbrush' and that dna is not necessarily that of the killer. Right?

To clarify angel...I do not think the DNA on the tights is compromised. Just most of the evidence in the home itself..there were too many people...friends, preachers, law enforcement in the home.

And not sure about question two....maybe the guy licked the brush before inserting it and drawing blood? The first sample is not skin cells...
 
  • #112
To clarify angel...I do not think the DNA on the tights is compromised. Just most of the evidence in the home itself..there were too many people...friends, preachers, law enforcement in the home.

And not sure about question two....maybe the guy licked the brush before inserting it and drawing blood? The first sample is not skin cells...

If the killer could have put the paintbrush into his mouth prior to inserting it, why couldn't some other male who used PR's paintbrush in art class have done the same thus compromising that dna as legitimate evidence?????
 
  • #113
Ames...I do agree. The ransom note is unheard of in length and specificity.

I just believe the Ramseys, both college grads would be smart enough to ask for a large sum no matter the state of panic. In fact in a state of panic I don't think you think about framing someone else who would probably have an alibi on a Christmas Day. To me the 118K was to signal to them that they had been watched.

And I believe that it was an amount that could have easily been drawn out of the bank, without suspicion....by the Ramseys...if it had to have came to that.
 
  • #114
Hey there angel..

I don't think the body itself was compromised but the scene--the house, the tape, the fibers. It was not a sealed scene. But no one was playing with JB's underwear while she lay in the middle of the floor in plain view.

So, you don't call John removing the tape on her mouth, untying one of the cords around her wrist, picking up her body...carrying it upstairs...and then it being covered with a sweatshirt and blanket from upstairs...and THEN Patsy flinging herself onto the body while reciting the "Lazarus Speech"... compromising the body???/ :confused:
 
  • #115
JMO but if I were the Ramseys writing a ransom note I would keep it simple

You're right Tex: it is just your opinion. One not shared by the FBI CASKU division, the people who work these cases every single day. Here's what they had to say:

the FBI team said the crime "did not fit an act of sex or revenge or one in which money was the motivation. Taken alone, they said, each piece of evidence might be argued, but together, enough pebbles become a block of evidentiary granite."
"CASKU observed that they had never seen anything like the Ramsey ransom note. Kidnapping demands are usually terse, such as 'We have your kid. A million dollars. Will call you.' From a kidnapper's point of view, the fewer words, the less police have to go on."
The FBI "believed that the note was written in the house, after the murder, and indicated panic. Ransom notes are normally written prior to the crime, usually proofread, and not written by hand, in order to disguise the authorship."

the FBI deemed the entire crime "criminally unsophisticated," citing the child being left on the premises, the oddness of the $118,000 demand in relation to the multi-million dollar net worth of the Ramsey, and the concept of a ransom delivery where one would be "scanned for electronic devices." Kidnappers prefer isolated drops for the ransom delivery, not wanting to chance a face-to-face meeting.
CASKU profilers also observed that placing JonBenet's body in the basement indicated the involvement of a parent, rather than an intruder. A parent would not want to place the body outside in the frigid night. They also stated that the ligatures "indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim."


Here's what Robert Ressler, the man who created the CASKU unit, had to say:

"JonBenet's mom fits the profile of the person who wrote the phony ransom note found in the Ramsey home, reveals former FBI expert. Robert K. Ressler, who helped establish criminal profiling for the feds, says that the style and language and information contained in the note point to an approximately 40-year-old white woman from the South as the author. 'It's absolutely phony. Usually a ransom note just gives the basics. This one was full of colorful language and mixed messages. Then there's the matter of why any kidnapper would demand money when the victim's body was left behind. It didn't make sense' "Ressler points out that the language is feminine. 'There's almost a maternal quality to comments like, I advise you to be rested. A hardened criminal would never use those terms.' "60's-era expressions like 'fat cat,' French-influenced vocabulary such as 'attache' and the demand for $118,000 might also point to someone like Patsy, who grew up in the 60's, studied French and was familiar with her husband's finances. Someone else with that knowledge probably would have demanded more."

"We have her, pay us XX million, don't call cops". Why put an amount only a couple of people in the company (who may have air tight alibis--it IS Christmas afterall) know.

You forget several important things, Tex. Most notably that the CASKU called the note "staging within staging." That means that the person staging the crime needed to create a criminal to match the created crime. Doesn't it strike you just the SLIGHTEST bit odd that the writer of the note is, at the SAME TIME, a pedophile killer, a ransom kidnapper, a far-leftist whacko AND an ISLAMIC terrorist?

I think it's helpful to remember that the Ramseys would be in good company in trying to create a popular boogeyman to pin the crime on, someone who the average American doesn't know much about, but play on popular, media-induced fear:

OJ Simpson blamed Nicole's murder on Colombian drug cartels

Susan Smith blamed her boys' disappearance on a cartoonishly caricatured black man

This killer is both pedophile (the ULTIMATE middle-American fear) and a foreign terrorist. Don't forget, it was in August of 1996 that the name "Osama bin Laden" began to be heard outside of the walls of the Pentagon.

Think about it, man.

IMO the Ramseys did adore this future Miss America and no was someone who has come through cancer gets in killing rage about wetting the bad.

I'll remember that the next time I think about how my father, in his final months, walloped me in the face for spilling a drink! Something he had NEVER done before.

I just believe the Ramseys, both college grads would be smart enough to ask for a large sum no matter the state of panic. In fact in a state of panic I don't think you think about framing someone else who would probably have an alibi on a Christmas Day.

Who says they were in panic? By that I mean, I'm sure there was immediate panic, but they had all night to do this.

I guess that's my point AZ, that IF they were the authors they would want the RN to appear real/serious, they are not stupid people.

No, they weren't. But as I've explained to other IDIs, with varying degrees of success, is that it didn't matter if they were smart or not. They didn't know what they were doing. There's a BIG difference between being smart and knowing what you're doing, as I've learned the hard way. Let me lay this illustration on you: I make furniture for a living, and I'm good at it. But you wouldn't necessarily ask me to install your plumbing, would you? Of course not, because I don't know about plumbing. John was a great businessman. Patsy was a great pageant person/actress/writer. That doesn't make 'em criminal masterminds. You see what I mean?

'One of them' was excessively, the over the top, performing 'DRAMA QUEEN' of the World...

You can not possibly judge any aspect of this case, exclude that ONE fact and come to a rational, logical conclusion as to who is guilty in this case.

My point exactly, anglwngs.

It does not matter how Dramatic Miss Patsy was. Her DNA nor her family members is involved in the case. They've been scientifically excluded.

No, the DA excluded them because this new scientific test confirmed her prejudices without telling us where it came from, how it got there, if it was even left that day. Don't forget, the panty DNA was degraded. That means it was old. It had been there a while. JB could have spread it around herself.

It'll take more than Mary Lacy's say-so for me to switch sides again.
 
  • #116
Hi again Ames!

I think the plan was to do WAY much more to this kid....like Westerfield did, take her somewhere and carry out his fantasy. IMO something happened, she screamed, kicked, struggled and he got scared and smashed her head then looked for a place to hide the body, found the basement room then could not help but molest her and either strangled her once she moved or breathed or as part of the fantasy. IMO he de-gloved to molest her and redress her thinking you cannot find fingerprints on clothing. Then he left.

JMO

If an intruder panics because JB struggled, it doesn't make sense that he'd proceed downstairs to the basement. It makes more sense that he'd make a QUICK exit from the house since there are so many doors on the ground level.

If she's still alive, he would have taken her like planned.

If she's dead, he could have chanced taking her body & hoping to get his ransom OR at this point... abort that whole plan & escape by himself.

An intruder who was THAT organized & controlled up to that point doesn't seem likely to panic because a tiny victim 'struggles.' Anyone would EXPECT the victim to struggle a bit... it shouldn't throw a kidnap plan into such disarray.
 
  • #117
Hi again Ames!

I think the plan was to do WAY much more to this kid....like Westerfield did, take her somewhere and carry out his fantasy. IMO something happened, she screamed, kicked, struggled and he got scared and smashed her head then looked for a place to hide the body, found the basement room then could not help but molest her and either strangled her once she moved or breathed or as part of the fantasy. IMO he de-gloved to molest her and redress her thinking you cannot find fingerprints on clothing. Then he left.

JMO

Why did he think that had to hide the body INSIDE the house? That basement was a MAZE of the Ramsey's household cr@p. They threw everything down there, and it wasn't organized. Even the Ramsey's own relatives have said this. Wouldn't taking her OUT of the house, been alot easier? Less fear of being caught....and walking out the door, is alot easier than carrying a six year old down a flight of stairs to the basement, around a maze of objects, and into the WC.
 
  • #118
If an intruder panics because JB struggled, it doesn't make sense that he'd proceed downstairs to the basement. It makes more sense that he'd make a QUICK exit from the house since there are so many doors on the ground level.

If she's still alive, he would have taken her like planned.

If she's dead, he could have chanced taking her body & hoping to get his ransom OR at this point... abort that whole plan & escape by himself.

An intruder who was THAT organized & controlled up to that point doesn't seem likely to panic because a tiny victim 'struggles.' Anyone would EXPECT the victim to struggle a bit... it shouldn't throw a kidnap plan into such disarray.

I read your post after I posted mine...and said almost the same thing as you did. Yes, the front door...or ANY door would have been ALOT easier than trying to carry her down a flight of stairs, into a dark basement..and then finally a wine cellar....the risk of getting caught while doing this, just grows and grows. He would have taken her out the door if it had of been a real intruder, if she was alive. If he had of killed her...he would have just left her where ever he killed her at....and then got the heck out of dodge
 
  • #119
I read your post after I posted mine...and said almost the same thing as you did. Yes, the front door...or ANY door would have been ALOT easier than trying to carry her down a flight of stairs, into a dark basement..and then finally a wine cellar....the risk of getting caught while doing this, just grows and grows. He would have taken her out the door if it had of been a real intruder, if she was alive. If he had of killed her...he would have just left her where ever he killed her at....and then got the heck out of dodge

Yes.

And the flashlight was left in the kitchen. An intruder doesn't need it in a dark basement?

But if the intruder DID decide to take a struggling kidnap victim down to the basement to hide from the family, he would NOT have left the RN on the stairs while he was hiding.

And if he killed the child while down in the basement.... why leave the note anyway AFTER she's dead?

It just doesn't make sense anyway you twist it.
 
  • #120
I just believe the Ramseys, both college grads would be smart enough to ask for a large sum no matter the state of panic. In fact in a state of panic I don't think you think about framing someone else who would probably have an alibi on a Christmas Day. To me the 118K was to signal to them that they had been watched.

But if an intruder/kidnapper/author/killer had put the amount 118K it would tip police that it was one of a handful of people who knew about JR's bonus. Why would the killer point to himself that way? Does the killer want to flirt with life in prison for the sake of sending a message?

IMO it's more likely the 118K was meant to cast suspicion on someone who knew of the bonus amount. You can say the Rs were too smart for this, but if they wrote the RN, they were between a rock and a hard place.
 

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