Why I believe that Patsy co-ordinated the staging

[BBB167893]

That was the general idea I was trying to get across.

 

[Ames]

Yes.

And the flashlight was left in the kitchen. An intruder doesn't need it in a dark basement?

But if the intruder DID decide to take a struggling kidnap victim down to the basement to hide from the family, he would NOT have left the RN on the stairs while he was hiding.

And if he killed the child while down in the basement.... why leave the note anyway AFTER she's dead?

It just doesn't make sense anyway you twist it.

You are absolutely right! The intruder would have had to use the flashlight in that dark basement, AND in the winecellar....AND outside when he left. But, NOOOOO...he chooses to wipe it and the BATTERIES down and leave it on the counter. Apparently he didn't bring his own. So, at night..."he" either, used it inside the home to go upstairs and take JB from her bed, wiped it down..and then placed it on the counter...and THEN took JB down to the basement without it (which would have been just stupid)...or "he" used it down in the basement TOO...and then was SO KIND as to bring it back upstairs and wipe it clean...and leave it...when he would have needed it when he also got outside to leave the property. Why didn't he just take the darn thing with him?? Why bother taking the time wiping anything off at all? Wouldn't it have just been easier to walk out the door with it? He had to take it apart to wipe down the batteries. Way WAY too much time was wasted here...where he could have been caught. I think that the Ramsey's used it when Patsy wrote that RN..and they wiped it down and placed it on the counter...and then acted like they didn't know how it got there...and that the "intruder" must have left it". IOW....it was staged, just like the rest of the crime scene was. I believe it was left out and wiped down...batteries and all...on purpose.

And you are so right....why would an "intruder"...

#1. Leave a RN on the STAIRS in the first place? Seems like a strange place for it. Why not leave it on the counter, or on JB's bed?

#2. Leave a RN on the stairs, BEFORE going down into the basement with JB, whether she be dead or alive at that time. Someone could see it if they got up to go and get a drink of water.

#3. Leave a RN on the stairs AFTER coming up from the basement WITHOUT JB, while she lies dead in the wine cellar.

Nope...it makes no sense to me, either.

 

[wenchie]

And I believe that it was an amount that could have easily been drawn out of the bank, without suspicion....by the Ramseys...if it had to have came to that.

Why wouldn't drawing $118,000 out of bank cause suspicion, but drawing out $150,000 would?

My own theory is that this was the Christmas bonus amount, and this was the amount that Patsy was willing to part with - in case John withdrew it and it got held as evidence in the case.

Patsy may have even originally planned to take things further, and communicate to John in some way that would have him dropping the money off somewhere.

I honestly don't think that John was involved in either the killing or the staging - although he became involved in the coverup when he read that ransom note, recognized it as the work of Patsy, and went along with the "kidnapping" scenario.

Why did he head for that private basement room immediately on his second trip around the house?

It could be that he'd figured out definitely by then that there was no "kidnapping", and that this would be the room where Patsy would have hidden Jonbenet's body.


Perhaps.............

 

[LI_Mom]

No, the amount of money doesn't have to be an amount that they'd be willing to lose or easy to withdraw.

it could be the first big number that popped into her mind under stress since it had to be a recent check.

I know Patsy claims she never knew how much he got but she also claimed she had no idea about the flashlight, the snack, the Santa Bear.... blah, blah, blah....

if you asked Patsy... she didn't know crap about nothin'

It's not hard to imagine Patsy & John previously discussed his nice bonus & what they would do with the money. Vacation? Gifts? Savings? Whatever.

 

[txsvicki]

Why did he think that had to hide the body INSIDE the house? That basement was a MAZE of the Ramsey's household cr@p. They threw everything down there, and it wasn't organized. Even the Ramsey's own relatives have said this. Wouldn't taking her OUT of the house, been alot easier? Less fear of being caught....and walking out the door, is alot easier than carrying a six year old down a flight of stairs to the basement, around a maze of objects, and into the WC.

IF an intruder did the crime, then his sole motive could have been to get JonBenet to the basement for sadistic reasons. He could have been in the home while the Ramseys were at the party and gotten all prepared even writing the note ahead of time. The note could have been left on the stairs just in case someone came down while down in the basement. The intruder would have had time to get away and possibly heard the family crying, yelling, and deciding what to do thinking a kidnap had taken place. Maybe an intruder had no proper vehicle and didn't live in a place where he could take a child. I'm not so sure the flashlite was the murder weapon since it's not verified. If an intruder had a stun gun he could also have been armed with other weapons and intended to hurt more than one family member if caught.

 

[philamena]

There was never proof that a stun gun was used on JBR.
That could have been proved or disproved if the Ram's allowed the body to be exhumed. They didn't want that...wonder why? :banghead:

Another bit to chew on, intruder sexual predators do NOT assault and kill a child and leave them in the house.
The FBI said that has NEVER been done.
All the IDI's should investigate that fact.

What think about that Wudge?

 

[BBB167893]

That's a rude awakening!

 

[Jane Osa]

When I read that John was the least suspected in the polls it made me wonder a bit - it isn't unusual for the father & brother to be both commiting incest with the daughter/sister. What if P.'s 'guilty' behavior is just that in regards to not helping JBR when she was alive and being complicit with covering her death up when she could speak out? Her own 'slip-ups' were just asking for accusations and doubts...just a thought...

I posted this question elsewhere, but, off-hand, does anyone remember where & why they were leaving so early the day after Christmas (I think it was Michigan)? The more I think about that small fact the more it seems strange - imagine planning all on your own volition, no needs or deadlines, just for-fun, planning a what, 7 am flight the day after Christmas especially with two small children? Not what I'd choose, and the Ramseys could choose. Also, I imagine they were indeed packed for said flight? Because she got the note at 5:45 right? Haven't even had coffee - the kids are asleep yet, they need to be on a plane (even privately chartered) at seven? Were the kids already packed up & ready?? If the kids were ready I guess you could put them in the plane half-asleep in their nighties if you wanted..and in that timeframe it'd have to be that...just more thoughts....

 

[txsvicki]

To clarify angel...I do not think the DNA on the tights is compromised. Just most of the evidence in the home itself..there were too many people...friends, preachers, law enforcement in the home.

And not sure about question two....maybe the guy licked the brush before inserting it and drawing blood? The first sample is not skin cells...

He could have held it in his mouth between his teeth while using his hands to get others things ready or in place.

 

[Ames]

No, the amount of money doesn't have to be an amount that they'd be willing to lose or easy to withdraw.

it could be the first big number that popped into her mind under stress since it had to be a recent check.

I know Patsy claims she never knew how much he got but she also claimed she had no idea about the flashlight, the snack, the Santa Bear.... blah, blah, blah....

if you asked Patsy... she didn't know crap about nothin'

It's not hard to imagine Patsy & John previously discussed his nice bonus & what they would do with the money. Vacation? Gifts? Savings? Whatever.

In my first post regarding this subject, I said...that I TOO believe that the amount was probably the first thing that popped into Patsy's head. I was just tossing other ideas around, about how the amount of 118,000.00 came to be. If I am not mistaken, John actually had a check made out to him in that amount...I could be wrong...and it could have been a direct deposit. But, if he did have a check made out to him in the sum, it could have been laying out on the table or something...ready to be cashed. OR...the number just popped into a panicky Patsy's head. Regardless of how that amount came to be...it was Patsy that wrote the RN, so who knows why she put that amount.

 

[Ames]

IF an intruder did the crime, then his sole motive could have been to get JonBenet to the basement for sadistic reasons. He could have been in the home while the Ramseys were at the party and gotten all prepared even writing the note ahead of time. The note could have been left on the stairs just in case someone came down while down in the basement. The intruder would have had time to get away and possibly heard the family crying, yelling, and deciding what to do thinking a kidnap had taken place. Maybe an intruder had no proper vehicle and didn't live in a place where he could take a child. I'm not so sure the flashlite was the murder weapon since it's not verified. If an intruder had a stun gun he could also have been armed with other weapons and intended to hurt more than one family member if caught.

If a real intruder did the crime, and his sole motive was to use JB for sadistic reasons...he would have taken her OUT of her house, so that he wouldn't get caught, and could spend as much time with her as he wanted. Not carry all of his sicko, perverted things out on her...while her parents and brother slept upstairs. Taking her to the basement of her own home, while her parents and brother slept upstairs, doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[LI_Mom]

In my first post regarding this subject, I said...that I TOO believe that the amount was probably the first thing that popped into Patsy's head. I was just tossing other ideas around, about how the amount of 118,000.00 came to be. If I am not mistaken, John actually had a check made out to him in that amount...I could be wrong...and it could have been a direct deposit. But, if he did have a check made out to him in the sum, it could have been laying out on the table or something...ready to be cashed. OR...the number just popped into a panicky Patsy's head. Regardless of how that amount came to be...it was Patsy that wrote the RN, so who knows why she put that amount.

Uncashed check, direct deposit, check stub.... no matter what it IS possible an intruder came in and saw the amount & didn't want to be labeled a greedy kidnapper, I suppose.

And we know this kidnapper is frugal... he doesn't even spring for his own supplies & uses what he finds in the house.... I guess he doesn't NEED a big payoff. lol

 

[magnolia]

If a real intruder did the crime, and his sole motive was to use JB for sadistic reasons...he would have taken her OUT of her house, so that he wouldn't get caught, and could spend as much time with her as he wanted. Not carry all of his sicko, perverted things out on her...while her parents and brother slept upstairs. Taking her to the basement of her own home, while her parents and brother slept upstairs, doesn't make any sense at all.

I disagree!

The biggest risk to the intruder was removing JB from her bedroom. However, as we all know, there have been many cases where perps successfully removed children from their bedrooms without waking other members of the family.

In this case,because of the enormous size of the house, risk of being caught would be higher had he taken JB out of the house. imo

 

[BBB167893]

When I read that John was the least suspected in the polls it made me wonder a bit - it isn't unusual for the father & brother to be both commiting incest with the daughter/sister.

I don't have the stats on that just now.

What if P.'s 'guilty' behavior is just that in regards to not helping JBR when she was alive and being complicit with covering her death up when she could speak out? Her own 'slip-ups' were just asking for accusations and doubts...just a thought...

I have often wondered that myself.

I posted this question elsewhere, but, off-hand, does anyone remember where & why they were leaving so early the day after Christmas (I think it was Michigan)? The more I think about that small fact the more it seems strange - imagine planning all on your own volition, no needs or deadlines, just for-fun, planning a what, 7 am flight the day after Christmas especially with two small children? Not what I'd choose, and the Ramseys could choose. Also, I imagine they were indeed packed for said flight? Because she got the note at 5:45 right? Haven't even had coffee - the kids are asleep yet, they need to be on a plane (even privately chartered) at seven? Were the kids already packed up & ready?? If the kids were ready I guess you could put them in the plane half-asleep in their nighties if you wanted..and in that timeframe it'd have to be that...just more thoughts....

It's not that unusual, Jane Osa. When I was a kid, every summer we'd go down to Mass to visit Grandma Rose, and that's how my parents did things. We'd get packed in the days before, and Mum and Dad would put us in our car seats in our pajamas and let us sleep part of the way. Then, we'd change into day clothes at a rest stop or something.

The biggest risk to the intruder was removing JB from her bedroom. However, as we all know, there have been many cases where perps successfully removed children from their bedrooms without waking other members of the family.

In this case,because of the enormous size of the house, risk of being caught would be higher had he taken JB out of the house. imo

Tell that to the FBI, magnolia. They tend to agree with our side.

 

[Levi]

-the ransom note,it's her style,no mention of jbr,Patsy usually called her "that child"
-i don't see john copying stupid quotes from movies,nor write such an essay
-she couldn't help herself and wanted to prove that the killer WAS smart so she used words like attache,etc

-the panties.....i can even imagine how it happened:"jooooohn,quick,we need to change her panties too!!"....and poor John didn't know jbr SIZE.

-the whole drama of the staging....Patsy was a drama queen,John wasn't that complicated,imo

-the 911 call....again Patsy's idea....she needed to act a bit

-the garrote,HER paint brush

-the location...it was Patsy who used to say:"take it down to the basement,i don't wanna see it"


-their behaviour while the LE was there......she cried and was hysterical,SHE needed attention again.

-the priest,i bet that was her idea too,and calling their friends

and so on.......

FGS,everything points to Patsy,how disgusting....

I think whoever did this sexually assaulted her, and did so in the past, because there were both old and new scratches to the vagina. That is why I am not convinced that Patsy is the killer, but I think she certainly helped stage the crime with the ransom note(s) like you say.

I'm not sure, but I'm suspicious John Ramsey could have been involved in some sort of child . Because there were search warrents, to search one of his computers for child , but what was found was NEVER released to the public. If they didn't find anything, I'm sure Lin Wood would have been all over T.V. saying they didn't find anything.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm not sure, but I'm suspicious John Ramsey could have been involved in some sort of child . Because there were search warrents, to search one of his computers for child , but what was found was NEVER released to the public. If they didn't find anything, I'm sure Lin Wood would have been all over T.V. saying they didn't find anything.

Well, the two Ramseys deny it, but quite frankly in my opinion, their word's not worth jack.

 

[Levi]

Well, the two Ramseys deny it, but quite frankly in my opinion, their word's not worth jack.

Yes, they will deny anything was found, but they don't want the report released. Wonder why?

 

[BBB167893]

It's not the only report they don't want to release.

 

[Ames]

Uncashed check, direct deposit, check stub.... no matter what it IS possible an intruder came in and saw the amount & didn't want to be labeled a greedy kidnapper, I suppose.

And we know this kidnapper is frugal... he doesn't even spring for his own supplies & uses what he finds in the house.... I guess he doesn't NEED a big payoff. lol

I KNOW! LOL...what sort of kidnapper comes into someones home...completely unprepared, stays for hours (he had to have arrived during daylight hours, because he didn't have his own flashlight...and then we know about what time JB was killed...so THAT is HOURS), writes an almost three page ransom note, leaves it on the stairs (the Rams had two staircases, how did he know which one they would come down that morning), finds a flashlight, finds JB's room, takes JB from her bed, takes her downstairs to feed her pineapple, while he sips tea, then manages to get her down to the basement without the parents or brother hearing NOT A WORD or commotion, undresses her, sexually assaults her using paintbrush handle for whatever reason,wipes her down, places a pair of clean, never before worn, still in the pack panties on her (how did he know where to find these?..AND WHY would he place a clean pair on her? But pull up the SAME long johns as she was put to bed in?), hits her in the head, then garottes her...or vice versa, finds a blanket...(that was in the dryer...how did HE know this?), takes the EXTRA time needed to then wrap her "lovingly" "papoose style", and to wipe off the flashlight AND the batteries, and replace it on the counter. I agree with the Boulder police here and the FBI, sounds like a staging and a fake RN note to me. The "intruder" felt just a little bit too comfortable in the Ramsey's home...no fear of being caught...whatsoever. HMMMMM...who comes to my mind when I think of..someone that has plenty of time in the home, comfortable in the home, and no fear of getting caught by someone in the home? I will give you three guesses....and the first two don't count. I will give you a hint...Patsy Ramsey...with help from her hubby with the coverup. IMO

 

[Ames]

I disagree!

The biggest risk to the intruder was removing JB from her bedroom. However, as we all know, there have been many cases where perps successfully removed children from their bedrooms without waking other members of the family.

In this case,because of the enormous size of the house, risk of being caught would be higher had he taken JB out of the house. imo

Yes, of course, there have been many, many cases where the perp breaks in a home and takes a chld AND LEAVES, without waking any other members of the family. BUT...have you ever heard of a perp breaking in..and molesting a child in their OWN home with the parents and brother in the same home before the Ramsey case? How about leaving a RN, and the person that they were kidnapping...BEHIND...or better yet...a dead body behind? That's because the Ramsey case is the ONLY case in HISTORY where all of these things have happened. Never happened before the Ramsey case, and probably never will again (hopefully).

And what if one of the Ramsey's had of woke up....to check on JB...and found her missing....while the perp is either in the process of taking her from her bed, taking her down the stairs, feeding her pineapple, or spending all that time with her in the basement? If you woke up and found your child gone, wouldn't you search your WHOLE house? I know that I would. What this "intruder" did was way to risky for it to have been an actual intruder. They were way too comfortable in the Ramsey home, with way too much time on their hands, without fear of being caught...EVEN THOUGH there were family members sleeping just feet away, when he took her from her bed.