Why I will never believe any IDI did it theory

[GRT]

I’m shocked at how narcissistic parents often are. It’s actually quite scary. In PR’s case, I think she envisioned JB how she would look in the future when PR was no longer there.,stage IV doesn’t come with good odds, and PR was a smart woman.
It’s hard to criticise that wish, even though if she could have turned back time, she probably would have avoided those contests. Obviously.

I find the outfits in those pageant outfits the opposite of attractive/cute, but that’s neither here nor there.

Really good point, and it makes sense. Patsy herself was a beauty queen and she won scholarships. She saw that as an honorable pastime, and we have to remember that Patsy was from the South, where pageants were big draws.

Maybe she was just trying to fit as many experiences in with her daughter as she could because there was a good chance she'd never get to see her grow up.

Little did she know how that would come true, but how sad.

 

[Ponytale]

Well, you can take off the make-up, yes. But bleaching/coloring your 5-year-old daughters hair? Sorry, but I can not see any other reason for that happening then changing her looks on purpose - Patsy's desire to make her look more "appealing" for the judges/crowds on the pageant competitions. That too can be seen as a "sexualization" . And totally unnecessary. A mother should love and accept her daughter regardless the hair color. Pageants or not. IMO

 

[snarast]

Well, you can take off the make-up, yes. But bleaching/coloring your 5-year-old daughters hair? Sorry, but I can not see any other reason for that happening then changing her looks on purpose - Patsy's desire to make her look more "appealing" for the judges/crowds on the pageant competitions. That too can be seen as a "sexualization" . And totally unnecessary. A mother should love and accept her daughter regardless the hair color. Pageants or not. IMO

I agree completely. I have a hard timed time seeing the kids as sexualized in those weird outfits, but bleaching hair and equipping a six yo with hair plugs is taking it too far.

Horsing around playing dress up is fine, but bringing young children into an environment where they are encouraged to be pleasing in front of ppl they don’t know…..it’s not a great idea.

IMHO

 

[AddieBoo]

That is a fair response. It's fair.

What I am suggesting is AFTER THE FACT - The Ramseys , after that morning, did every little thing - every detail of it, absolutely perfectly. PERFECT. That continues to this day.

Arguably, they even had extremely high ranking FBI persons conflicted. I'm suggesting that doesn't happen unless intentionally. Give just enough detail to lead everyone in every conceivable direction so that they ultimately conclude that ANY possibility, is in fact - a possibility. (Reasonable Doubt)

Once I wondered - "Did they call anyone before they called 911?" - (to get help?) (IE; a *CRIMINAL* attorney) (dirty attorney, doesn't play by the rules, etc, literally a criminal lawyer - Ala "Saul Goodman" )

The police must have wondered that too - hence why they wanted the Ramseys phone and cell phone records. And low an behold when those records finally were produced - Johns cell phone record for the month of December were completely blank.....not 1 phone call. John had apparently "lost" his cellphone the previous month. Sure...whatever.

Interesting thought just occurred to me - A man with a $1 billion dollar business can lose his cell phone, but also is a participant in a perfect murder that cannot be solved??????? Not buying that for a moment. Nope. They had help. And I mean serious, high, high, high up serious help. In my mind it's JFK jr .....we'll never know. That's that, IMHO.

Agree! I suspect that JR might be holding his own “ace up his sleeve”

 

[GRT]

Well, you can take off the make-up, yes. But bleaching/coloring your 5-year-old daughters hair? Sorry, but I can not see any other reason for that happening then changing her looks on purpose - Patsy's desire to make her look more "appealing" for the judges/crowds on the pageant competitions. That too can be seen as a "sexualization" . And totally unnecessary. A mother should love and accept her daughter regardless the hair color. Pageants or not. IMO

I've not seen any indication that Patsy didn't accept and love JonBenet. Just the opposite, actually.

My personal opinion is that bleaching a small girl's hair is silly, and I agree it was likely done to make her more appealing at the pageants. But I don't think Patsy was trying to sexualize JonBenet, although others may think so. To Patsy, external beauty seemed very important, and while I've never seen the value in that, to each their own.

In my opinion, it's not the mothers of the JonBenets and Shirley Temples of the world we should be demonizing for living vicariously through their little daughters, but rather the sick men who lust after children and abuse them.

I think most of us agree that pageants are shallow and superficial, but they're still legal, and tens of thousands of girls participate in them. And thrive.

Patsy Ramsey has been demonized for many years, but there's no real evidence that she was anything other than a loving mother. She just had different dreams and goals for her daughter than most of us do.

I've never found a perfect parent. But I think Patsy was a decent one.

 

[Ponytale]

I've not seen any indication that Patsy didn't accept and love JonBenet. Just the opposite, actually.

Love comes in different ways and forms. I do not say that dying her daughters hair means that Patsy did not love Jonbenet - I believe she did, the best she knew how to. Like all mothers.
But as the discussion here went on to "sexualization" of children, I wrote an example of it that I believe shows exactly that. Would you believe Patsy would have done that, if she did not have her dreams about Jonbenet regarding her participating in pageants? Winning was important to her, obviously. Appearance was important to her. It does not interpret that Patsy did not love her at all, no. It just seems, IMO, that some times her priorities as a mother were not quite what they should have been.

Acceptance is different than love. I believe Patsy had her own conditions set on that matter, knowingly or not. She accepted her under her own conditions. Sadly, a fairly common thing...

Unconditional love is something that does not happen in families where parents choose to live their lives (dreams) through their children.

 

[AddieBoo]

Well, you can take off the make-up, yes. But bleaching/coloring your 5-year-old daughter’s hair? Sorry, but I can not see any other reason for that happening then changing her looks on purpose - Patsy's desire to make her look more "appealing" for the judges/crowds on the pageant competitions. That too can be seen as a "sexualization" . And totally unnecessary. A mother should love and accept her daughter regardless the hair color. Pageants or not. IMO

Love comes in different ways and forms. I do not say that dying her daughters hair means that Patsy did not love Jonbenet - I believe she did, the best she knew how to. Like all mothers.
But as the discussion here went on to "sexualization" of children, I wrote an example of it that I believe shows exactly that. Would you believe Patsy would have done that, if she did not have her dreams about Jonbenet regarding her participating in pageants? Winning was important to her, obviously. Appearance was important to her. It does not interpret that Patsy did not love her at all, no. It just seems, IMO, that some times her priorities as a mother were not quite what they should have been.

Acceptance is different than love. I believe Patsy had her own conditions set on that matter, knowingly or not. She accepted her under her own conditions. Sadly, a fairly common thing...

Unconditional love is something that does not happen in families where parents choose to live their lives (dreams) through their children.

Agree totally.
Who left the dead body of JonBenet, alone on the living room floor waiting for the coroner? Or called for an airplane to Atlanta 25 minutes after her body was “discovered” WTH? That really upset me when I read it.

Back in the day, my neighbors kids were in to all that. They had commercial agents, were busy in community theatre, driving everywhere for auditions and dance classes, acting classes etc.
If a parent whose child is gifted in the performing arts, then that pursuit is no different than a child gifted in mathematics or music etc. IMO JonBenet was a performing arts kid. Patsy Ramsey grew up with pageants. It’s a natural progression that JB would follow. But I totally agree that she was sexualized. She was Marilyn Monroe for her last Halloween…
But make no mistake, it is a sinister world for kids. And sometimes the common sense well being and safety of a child is sacrificed for their parents gratification. It’s not uncommon at all. Look the other way for an opportunity for stardom.
You add in the conclusion of her autopsy and perhaps that report matches the reality of JonBenet during her final months.

I just finished watching the Larry King interview (not the Steve Thomas one) and King questions both of them on their participation in the pageant world. I have watched that portion 6 times. The camera is in close up for most of their individual responses... But there is a very quick take where both of them are in the frame….
I am biased..and am fighting it…but that part of the interview gives me the literal creeps.
MOO

 

[snarast]

Love comes in different ways and forms. I do not say that dying her daughters hair means that Patsy did not love Jonbenet - I believe she did, the best she knew how to. Like all mothers.
But as the discussion here went on to "sexualization" of children, I wrote an example of it that I believe shows exactly that. Would you believe Patsy would have done that, if she did not have her dreams about Jonbenet regarding her participating in pageants? Winning was important to her, obviously. Appearance was important to her. It does not interpret that Patsy did not love her at all, no. It just seems, IMO, that some times her priorities as a mother were not quite what they should have been.

Acceptance is different than love. I believe Patsy had her own conditions set on that matter, knowingly or not. She accepted her under her own conditions. Sadly, a fairly common thing...

Unconditional love is something that does not happen in families where parents choose to live their lives (dreams) through their children.

PR strikes me as an impulsive person - someone who doesn’t have a poker face. That’s why I’m pretty sure she could not have been involved in the murder. At all.

To look at a very young burgeoning version of herself must have combined the things she loved the most - her child and memories of her own youth.

While narcissism may play a role here, I think there is a resonance between parent and child that just enables vicariously reliving the past in a way that is emotionally powerful.

Call me a romantic…

IMHO

 

[wvmoonangel]

There are so many aspects in this case that do not make any logical sense to begin with. One of them for me, is the IDI theory. To begin with the obvious - we can not name any actual, factual, scientific or forensic evidence of an intruder that can not be explained away. Yes, even the foreign DNA can be explained away as it is not in any way a fact that it came from an intruder that night.

And to see all that was wrong in that morning, when this was just the kidnapping that they all had to believe it to be, all one has to do is put themselves in the same situation - if you were the parent in this situation, what would you do and not do? And I'm not referring to any specific psychological or behavioral aspects like a person's way to cope with the situation (like for an example, the claims that John went through the mail that morning because he was nervous and it was his way to deal with the situation, or that they stayed in the separate rooms the entire morning, and so on), but of the case in general.

If my child was abducted there is no way I would not cooperate with the police or anyone in the world who could help me to find my child. I would call, talk and meet with them day or night. AND I would do it even if they all think that I was the kidnapper of my child or played a part in it. Period. If I knew that the whole world hates me and thinks of me as a culprit it would still never stop me for fighting for my child. I would be heard and seen demanding for justice from the moment it happened until I would die. I would never hide. I would never not answer questions. I would never have anything better to do then find my child and get her back to me, back home safe.

I would search every inch of my house, my backyard. Knock on the doors of my neighbors. I would talk with my family members, friends and anyone who might have seen her, talked to her or even met her, to find out if anyone knows something.

And mostly, I believe if I and my family were innocent to begin with, I would never change even a slightest detail in my story. Because I would know for sure from the beginning and I would remember that day till the day I die.
If one goes through a traumatic experience it will stay with them, they will remember. They'd be playing this over and over again in their head to figure it all out and make sense of it, that they would remember all the details to tell the police and detectives. What they thought, what emotions they felt. Even the smells around them and what they were wearing. They would reflect back on their own and others actions to before it happened, and try to find anything that was amiss or odd. They would desperately try to figure it all out, to think if they are the ones who missed something important or could have done something differently to prevent it from happening.

And yes there would still be some things that I might not be sure of to say for certain, because it is normal and there are always simple things that just wont be remembered, but then I would go and say so from the day one - I would admit that from the beginning that I really do not remember if it was this or that or what was the exact sequence of the events and make it be clear that I really do not know for sure. And I would go ask my husband or others what they remember about how it was exactly, to help me remember too.

I would read the ransom letter a 100 times with my husband to figure out how can we contact the police if the kidnappers might be watching us, not to risk my child to be killed because of that. I would find another way to alert them - like call my friends to go to the cops. I would never let my other children out of my sight for no matter how long. I would trust no-one. I would be afraid for their life and my life too, if a stranger had entered my house and writes about beheading my child. I would be anxiously waiting for that ransom call to be made as it would be my only hope to get my child back safely, and I would keep my eyes on the clock and even count the seconds. And if that time would be passed without any call, I would scream and demand for FBI and search dogs and the whole secret service to be there in my house and figure it all out to find my daughter fast and alive. Especially if I had the money, means and the power to do it all. And the Ramsay's did.

If the parents have the money, power and means to pay big amounts to find the monster who kidnapped their child and find justice, but choose to spend that money on lawyering up, defending themselves and needing to prove their innocence instead, it is a huge red flag. This is not the behavior of an innocent parent.

I write this because that is the expected reaction of a parent who's child is missing. Of a parent, who's child has been kidnapped in the middle of the night in their own house. Of a parent, who is completely innocent and does not care about anything else in the world, than the safe and fast return of her beloved child. Period.

And I believe all the parents and grandparents here reading this would feel exactly the same way if they were in this situation.
No innocent parent will never feel the need to have to prove their innocence to the public.

I agree,If I was to get up and my child was missing First I would immediately call LE and then tear my house upside down looking in any possible place a child could hide/fall asleep in. If not found then I would tear that neighborhood up looking for my child. I will never believe it was an intruder.

 

[Ponytale]

PR strikes me as an impulsive person - someone who doesn’t have a poker face. That’s why I’m pretty sure she could not have been involved in the murder. At all.

To look at a very young burgeoning version of herself must have combined the things she loved the most - her child and memories of her own youth.

While narcissism may play a role here, I think there is a resonance between parent and child that just enables vicariously reliving the past in a way that is emotionally powerful.

Call me a romantic…

IMHO

I agree with you that Patsy had a strong back-bone and a temperament. We can all see that in the police interrogation video tapes that she does not hold back with her words and emotions if she has a point to prove. I bet all of them in the Ramsey household were quite familiar with that too.

But...

There is no personality trait that can be exempt of murder.
There is no age that can be exempt of murder.
There is no gender that can be exempt of murder.
There is no level of intelligence that can be exempt of murder.

People of all pasts and backgrounds can commit murder. Even popes and good Christians commit heinous crimes. Rich businessmen or poor homeless people, college degree graduate or high school drop-outs. People with past indications of criminal behavior and those of excellent picture-perfect families.
I think that we all know that by now...

So, for that reason. I can see Patsy committing a crime. I can see John staging a crime-scene. I can see Burke lying about things. I can see them all doing all parts of this crime (some less or more than others) if I wanted to. I can see all of them do it by intent or by accident. I can see them doing it for each-other or for only for themselves. And I can see them doing it for at least 10 possible reasons. I can also see an intruder doing it, but I do not believe it just because of the lack of evidence.

People commit crimes. Willingly or by accident. And that is a reason enough for me to believe that Patsy too can be involved in a crime.

 

[snarast]

I agree with you that Patsy had a strong back-bone and a temperament. We can all see that in the police interrogation video tapes that she does not hold back with her words and emotions if she has a point to prove. I bet all of them in the Ramsey household were quite familiar with that too.

But...

There is no personality trait that can be exempt of murder.
There is no age that can be exempt of murder.
There is no gender that can be exempt of murder.
There is no level of intelligence that can be exempt of murder.

People of all pasts and backgrounds can commit murder. Even popes and good Christians commit heinous crimes. Rich businessmen or poor homeless people, college degree graduate or high school drop-outs. People with past indications of criminal behavior and those of excellent picture-perfect families.
I think that we all know that by now...

So, for that reason. I can see Patsy committing a crime. I can see John staging a crime-scene. I can see Burke lying about things. I can see them all doing all parts of this crime (some less or more than others) if I wanted to. I can see all of them do it by intent (which I personally just do not believe) or by accident. I can see them doing it for each-other or for only for themselves. And I can see them doing it for at least 10 possible reasons. I can also see an intruder doing it, but I do not believe it just because of the lack of evidence.

People commit crimes. Willingly or by accident. And that is a reason enough for me to believe that Patsy too can be involved in a crime.

Yes. That could happen if PR was somehow out of it. Meds, fuge state, psychosis…something radical.

IMHO

 

[GRT]

This video is an interview with Katie Couric all the way back in 2001 with Lou Smit.

Those who think an intruder couldn't have done it -- might want to watch this old video.

 

[GRT]

Unconditional love is something that does not happen in families where parents choose to live their lives (dreams) through their children.

RSBM...

I see so very many parents trying to live vicariously through their children. And it can be negative or positive. In Patsy's case, I believe she deeply loved JonBenet and her desire for her daughter to be successful in pageants stemmed from her own experience in pageants, which she viewed as being responsible for her self-confidence, happiness, and fulfillment.

And, from all the accounts I've heard, JBR loved the pageants. You can actually see that from the genuine smiles on her face. There's no indication that Patsy would have forced her to continue if JBR resisted.

Even though most of us would not follow a pageant path, Patsy was sharing with her daughter something that she, herself, had enjoyed and been successful at. It was a common mother/daughter bonding.

I don't blame Patsy for pedos lurking in dark, fixating on her little girl.

Pageants were just one part of JBR's life. Pageants are not held all that often, and JBR had a normal little girl's life. She had friends over. She socialized. She took dance classes and singing lessons. She took swimming lessons. She attended public school. She did all the things other little girls did.

Patsy made sure she was a happy, confident little girl.

That's what loving parents do.

 

[Ponytale]

RSBM...

I see so very many parents trying to live vicariously through their children. And it can be negative or positive. In Patsy's case, I believe she deeply loved JonBenet and her desire for her daughter to be successful in pageants stemmed from her own experience in pageants, which she viewed as being responsible for her self-confidence, happiness, and fulfillment.

I agree. In fact, most parents who live vicariously through their children do it exactly because of that - because they care enough to do it. Care means love, doesn't it? If you ask those parents why they do it, most of them tell that they do it because they love that child very much and want what's best for them. But the question that psychologist look for answer to in those cases is - is the "love" and "care" actually for the child, or a need for the parent herself?

As far as I know we have not been able to read any lengthy statements from Patsy herself, regarding her upbringing, youth and participating in pageants. She has not shared many memories or described her emotions regarding participating in pageants. So we can only assume that those pageants gave her self-confidence, happiness and fulfillment - those are not actually her words. There is always a question - was it something that she really wanted to do herself and loved doing, or was it done because she was made to do it? And same goes for Jonbenet.

There is a possibility that it was all a facade (we know that she had become used to showing people only what she wanted them to see and believe). She did pride herself for doing it, but I believe that she would have prided herself for it nevertheless - it was just her style of doing things. Appearance and status mattered to her and she would not have made herself a victim, IMO ,even if she actually was. My point here is - we do not really know what went on behind closed curtains, and if she really enjoyed the pageants like the few photos of her show. We can all smile on camera and feel proud when we win a medal. But we know from other stories (like from professional athletes. Have you seen the movie I Tonya ?), that too often there is a lot that is left unseen.

And, from all the accounts I've heard, JBR loved the pageants. You can actually see that from the genuine smiles on her face. There's no indication that Patsy would have forced her to continue if JBR resisted.

JonBenet was only a 6-year-old child. Sadly, she did not live enough to tell her side of the story.

Even though most of us would not follow a pageant path, Patsy was sharing with her daughter something that she, herself, had enjoyed and been successful at. It was a common mother/daughter bonding.

Again, this is only an opinion on that matter. We will never know the truth, sadly.
There will always remain a possibility that JonBenet was only said to love the pageants and made to love the pageants. There are plenty of little kids who do those kind of things for their parents, not for themselves.

Pageants were just one part of JBR's life. Pageants are not held all that often, and JBR had a normal little girl's life. She had friends over. She socialized. She took dance classes and singing lessons. She took swimming lessons. She attended public school. She did all the things other little girls did.

I think this is something that every parent would point out. Even the ones who know that it wasn't really the whole truth.

Growing up, I was a child that was pushed towards a dream that was not mine. I took piano lessons, violin lessons, singing lessons, dance lessons, did gymnastics and swimming. I was supposed to "become someone" and as long as I did my best to fit that script, I was loved and accepted. But no one knows how much tears I had to cry to fit that role.

But I also had friends, attended birthdays. Visited places with my parents, rode a bike at summer and had time to have friends over and visit their houses.

All the photographs taken of me at that young age show a happy little girl. I smiled on all of my photos and when my parents "bragged" to others about my achievements, I nodded along and smiled with them, showing how "proud" I was too. It was all a facade that I learned to play along with my parents from very young age. It was much later, in my teens, when I started to rebel against it and finally spoke out how I felt about it all.
JonBenet, unfortunately, did not live that long.

Does that all now prove that I was a happy little girl and enjoyed what was put on to me by my parents?
No, I just did it because I had no choice... and had not yet learned to say No.

Patsy made sure she was a happy, confident little girl.
That's what loving parents do.

Trust me, if you asked my parents why they did all that, they would answer the same thing - they did it because they loved me very much and that is what loving parents do.
...

 

[GRT]

I agree. In fact, most parents who live vicariously through their children do it exactly because of that - because they care enough to do it. Care means love, doesn't it? If you ask those parents why they do it, most of them tell that they do it because they love that child very much and want what's best for them. But the question that psychologist look for answer to in those cases is - is the "love" and "care" actually for the child, or a need for the parent herself?

As far as I know we have not been able to read any lengthy statements from Patsy herself, regarding her upbringing, youth and participating in pageants. She has not shared many memories or described her emotions regarding participating in pageants. So we can only assume that those pageants gave her self-confidence, happiness and fulfillment - those are not actually her words. There is always a question - was it something that she really wanted to do herself and loved doing, or was it done because she was made to do it? And same goes for Jonbenet.

There is a possibility that it was all a facade (we know that she had become used to showing people only what she wanted them to see and believe). She did pride herself for doing it, but I believe that she would have prided herself for it nevertheless - it was just her style of doing things. Appearance and status mattered to her and she would not have made herself a victim, IMO ,even if she actually was. My point here is - we do not really know what went on behind closed curtains, and if she really enjoyed the pageants like the few photos of her show. We can all smile on camera and feel proud when we win a medal. But we know from other stories (like from professional athletes. Have you seen the movie I Tonya ?), that too often there is a lot that is left unseen.

JonBenet was only a 6-year-old child. Sadly, she did not live enough to tell her side of the story.

Again, this is only an opinion on that matter. We will never know the truth, sadly.
There will always remain a possibility that JonBenet was only said to love the pageants and made to love the pageants. There are plenty of little kids who do those kind of things for their parents, not for themselves.

I think this is something that every parent would point out. Even the ones who know that it wasn't really the whole truth.

Growing up, I was a child that was pushed towards a dream that was not mine. I took piano lessons, violin lessons, singing lessons, dance lessons, did gymnastics and swimming. I was supposed to "become someone" and as long as I did my best to fit that script, I was loved and accepted. But no one knows how much tears I had to cry to fit that role.

But I also had friends, attended birthdays. Visited places with my parents, rode a bike at summer and had time to have friends over and visit their houses.

All the photographs taken of me at that young age show a happy little girl. I smiled on all of my photos and when my parents "bragged" to others about my achievements, I nodded along and smiled with them, showing how "proud" I was too. It was all a facade that I learned to play along with my parents from very young age. It was much later, in my teens, when I started to rebel against it and finally spoke out how I felt about it all.
JonBenet, unfortunately, did not live that long.

Does that all now prove that I was a happy little girl and enjoyed what was put on to me by my parents?
No, I just did it because I had no choice... and had not yet learned to say No.

Trust me, if you asked my parents why they did all that, they would answer the same thing - they did it because they loved me very much and that is what loving parents do.
...

True, we'll never get JonBenet's side of the story.

But, when I look at her smiles during competition -- they seem genuine. They reach her eyes and her eyes twinkle. That says something to me.

I've also heard JR and family friends say JBR loved the pageants. That's all I'm going on.

But for years, I was a USA gymnastics judge, and I got to the point where I could pretty much determine when a little girl was excited about competing and when she didn't. There was such a difference in demeanor.

It's just too bad that we'll never hear JBR's impressions.

 

[Tricia]

Do you remember the annoying old days when Websleuths.com had a zillion ads on the site? Scroll to the bottom to see one of the old obnoxious ads.
Those days are GONE and let's keep them gone. Help us keep ads off of Websleuths.
Sign up for a subscription to DNA Solves.com and make a monthly donation.
Not only does this keep those awful ads off of Websleuths, but you are helping the families of the missing get the answers they deserve.
Find out how you can become a subscriber to DNA Solves.com by CLICKING HERE.
If you want to make a single donation, go to www.dnasolves.com and pick a case you would like to donate to.
Do not comment on this thread. CLICK HERE to ask questions and to learn more.
Thank you very much.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I agree. In fact, most parents who live vicariously through their children do it exactly because of that - because they care enough to do it. Care means love, doesn't it? If you ask those parents why they do it, most of them tell that they do it because they love that child very much and want what's best for them. But the question that psychologist look for answer to in those cases is - is the "love" and "care" actually for the child, or a need for the parent herself?

As far as I know we have not been able to read any lengthy statements from Patsy herself, regarding her upbringing, youth and participating in pageants. She has not shared many memories or described her emotions regarding participating in pageants. So we can only assume that those pageants gave her self-confidence, happiness and fulfillment - those are not actually her words. There is always a question - was it something that she really wanted to do herself and loved doing, or was it done because she was made to do it? And same goes for Jonbenet.

There is a possibility that it was all a facade (we know that she had become used to showing people only what she wanted them to see and believe). She did pride herself for doing it, but I believe that she would have prided herself for it nevertheless - it was just her style of doing things. Appearance and status mattered to her and she would not have made herself a victim, IMO ,even if she actually was. My point here is - we do not really know what went on behind closed curtains, and if she really enjoyed the pageants like the few photos of her show. We can all smile on camera and feel proud when we win a medal. But we know from other stories (like from professional athletes. Have you seen the movie I Tonya ?), that too often there is a lot that is left unseen.

JonBenet was only a 6-year-old child. Sadly, she did not live enough to tell her side of the story.

Again, this is only an opinion on that matter. We will never know the truth, sadly.
There will always remain a possibility that JonBenet was only said to love the pageants and made to love the pageants. There are plenty of little kids who do those kind of things for their parents, not for themselves.

I think this is something that every parent would point out. Even the ones who know that it wasn't really the whole truth.

Growing up, I was a child that was pushed towards a dream that was not mine. I took piano lessons, violin lessons, singing lessons, dance lessons, did gymnastics and swimming. I was supposed to "become someone" and as long as I did my best to fit that script, I was loved and accepted. But no one knows how much tears I had to cry to fit that role.

But I also had friends, attended birthdays. Visited places with my parents, rode a bike at summer and had time to have friends over and visit their houses.

All the photographs taken of me at that young age show a happy little girl. I smiled on all of my photos and when my parents "bragged" to others about my achievements, I nodded along and smiled with them, showing how "proud" I was too. It was all a facade that I learned to play along with my parents from very young age. It was much later, in my teens, when I started to rebel against it and finally spoke out how I felt about it all.
JonBenet, unfortunately, did not live that long.

Does that all now prove that I was a happy little girl and enjoyed what was put on to me by my parents?
No, I just did it because I had no choice... and had not yet learned to say No.

Trust me, if you asked my parents why they did all that, they would answer the same thing - they did it because they loved me very much and that is what loving parents do.
...

Lots to unpack here, some very good points made.

I think parents who want to live vicariously through their children are often blind to the fact that their child might not want to follow in the exact footsteps of the parent. They get so caught up in how much they enjoyed it, or what a positive experience it may have been for them, it's hard to connect to the fact that the child might have different ideas about what they want to do, what makes them happy. And most kids want to please their parents, so they agree to do things that they might not decide to do if they had the choice.

I think it's important to take things in context as to who's presenting the narrative. We heard that JB loved the pageants from: Patsy, Nedra, Patsy's two sisters and eventually John in defense of his wife. We know that the Paugh women were obsessed with the pageant life, this was noted by people who knew them and worked with them. We have heard from others outside the family that JB was not all that thrilled with pageant life. She liked the talent aspect, she did not care so much for walking the runway. Her dance teacher noted that PR was the typical "stage mother". That term does not have a positive connotation.

Many of her afternoons after school were taken up by dance lessons, singing lessons, how to walk the runway and what moves PR wanted her to master. Wardrobe fittings and sessions, hair and make-up sittings. The pageants themselves may not have been every weekend, but planning for them and rehearsing for them took up a lot of time. So much so that some of PR's friends noticed just how much of an obsession it had become for her. When something crosses the line into obsession, it often then becomes unhealthy. Her friends were planning an intervention of sorts after the holidays because they recognized it had become unhealthy.

Part of the Paugh women's obsession involved constant dieting. There was the push towards being and looking perfect. The bleaching of JB's hair, the need for her costumes to be elaborate.....all in the quest for perfection. This started when JB was 4. By the time she was 6 she was starting to push back on some things.

A former babysitter told the story about picking up JB and BR for a visit after she had left the Ramsey's employ and being excited to take them to what used to be one of JB's favorite things to do together.....a trip to McDonald's. She was shocked and saddened to hear JB say, "McDonald's makes you fat". 6 years old and she had already been taught to think about her weight. JB sitting on the stairs the night of the party on the 23rd, crying because she didn't feel pretty. At one point even JR felt the need to pull her aside and have a talk with her about how important it was to be a good person and not to get too caught up in looks.

Who had a lot of friends that often were at the house playing? BR. Who had sleepovers at the Ramsey house and also at other friends houses? BR. JB did not actually have that many friends. She did not do sleepovers, either as hostess or a guest. I recall reading a story about IIRC a school function picnic. JB was dressed differently than everyone else, all dolled up. She was sitting all by herself while others were playing and having fun. People who were there noticed she seemed to be in her own world. Unsmiling, not playing, not participating. She wasn't dressed to play. It was if she was on display.

I think the pageants can have positives, but you can't ignore the negatives which also exist. I'm sure there are many girls who went through the pageant system who appreciated it. But there's always the other side. And when so much emphasis is put on outward appearances, that can really mess with self esteem. Dressing your child up as Marilyn Monroe for Halloween when the child is only 5-6 years old is a little out there IMO. Whose idea was that I wonder? Most kids that age want to be ghosts, or witches or whatever is popular at that time. How would a 5-6 year old child even know about MM unless introduced by a parent? It's hard not to notice the potential similarities here......MM had to change her name, MM had to have her widow's peak removed, MM had her hair bleached platinum blonde, MM was modeled by the studio after another actress, Rita Hayworth, MM was completely sexualized by the studio system and its bosses. MM was not allowed to be herself, they wanted a sex symbol because that's what sold tickets.

I would like to think JB could've risen above what PR had planned for her. And perhaps the start of some rebellion played a part in what happened. We know that JB was starting to clash with PR and her ideas of what to wear, how to look. I am reminded of the evening at Pasta Jay's when JB asked to put on her coat because she was cold, only to be told no by PR because she was "still on display". I can't even imagine how that must've made her feel. Looks before comfort. That sends a message to an impressionable child. Not a warm and fuzzy loving message from the one who's supposed to love you the most and have your best interests at heart. We do not know how or even if PR would've handled her pet project rejecting her plan.

 

[GRT]

We know that the Paugh women were obsessed with the pageant life, this was noted by people who knew them and worked with them. We have heard from others outside the family that JB was not all that thrilled with pageant life. She liked the talent aspect, she did not care so much for walking the runway. Her dance teacher noted that PR was the typical "stage mother". That term does not have a positive connotation.

Who are the "others" who said JBR was not all that thrilled about pageants? From everything I've heard, she enjoyed them.

But yes, the Paugh women were deep into pageants--they'd been involved for years.

Many of her afternoons after school were taken up by dance lessons, singing lessons, how to walk the runway and what moves PR wanted her to master. Wardrobe fittings and sessions, hair and make-up sittings. The pageants themselves may not have been every weekend, but planning for them and rehearsing for them took up a lot of time. So much so that some of PR's friends noticed just how much of an obsession it had become for her. When something crosses the line into obsession, it often then becomes unhealthy. Her friends were planning an intervention of sorts after the holidays because they recognized it had become unhealthy.

Who exactly was planning the intervention?

Who had a lot of friends that often were at the house playing? BR. Who had sleepovers at the Ramsey house and also at other friends houses? BR. JB did not actually have that many friends. She did not do sleepovers, either as hostess or a guest.

According to Linda Wilcox, that's not entirely accurate. JBR didn't have friends over to stay the night, but she did attend sleepovers at their homes.

"JonBenet never had sleepovers. She slept at her friend's houses occasionally but it was never reciprocated."

I would like to think JB could've risen above what PR had planned for her. And perhaps the start of some rebellion played a part in what happened. We know that JB was starting to clash with PR and her ideas of what to wear, how to look. I am reminded of the evening at Pasta Jay's when JB asked to put on her coat because she was cold, only to be told no by PR because she was "still on display". I can't even imagine how that must've made her feel. Looks before comfort. That sends a message to an impressionable child. Not a warm and fuzzy loving message from the one who's supposed to love you the most and have your best interests at heart. We do not know how or even if PR would've handled her pet project rejecting her plan.

Where did the story about Pasta Jay's come from?

I like to think JBR would have been tremendously successful, too.

As far as I know, there's no indication mother and daughter were "clashing," although if they did on some issues, that's perfectly normal.

I'm sure there was some "looks before comfort" going on--because pageants and beauty were involved. That's not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

I haven't heard anything from any reliable source that indicates Patsy was anything less than a good mom.

I don't have to agree with Patsy's choice to put her daughter in pageants, but I understand that Patsy herself loved pageants and had been successful, and she wanted the same for her daughter. That doesn't really fit the "living vicariously" mold because Patsy had done the same thing.

Living vicariously is more representative of a mother who never had a shot at being glamorous but always wanted to be.

 

[FMB]

Who are the "others" who said JBR was not all that thrilled about pageants? From everything I've heard, she enjoyed them.

But yes, the Paugh women were deep into pageants--they'd been involved for years.

Who exactly was planning the intervention?


According to Linda Wilcox, that's not entirely accurate. JBR didn't have friends over to stay the night, but she did attend sleepovers at their homes.

"JonBenet never had sleepovers. She slept at her friend's houses occasionally but it was never reciprocated."

Where did the story about Pasta Jay's come from?

I like to think JBR would have been tremendously successful, too.

As far as I know, there's no indication mother and daughter were "clashing," although if they did on some issues, that's perfectly normal.

I'm sure there was some "looks before comfort" going on--because pageants and beauty were involved. That's not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

I haven't heard anything from any reliable source that indicates Patsy was anything less than a good mom.

I don't have to agree with Patsy's choice to put her daughter in pageants, but I understand that Patsy herself loved pageants and had been successful, and she wanted the same for her daughter. That doesn't really fit the "living vicariously" mold because Patsy had done the same thing.

Living vicariously is more representative of a mother who never had a shot at being glamorous but always wanted to be.

Patsy was a mother to two children not one. I wonder how Burke really felt about all the attention being paid to Jonebenet. Doesn't seem like it was all that healthy for Burke.

Here is a quote from Steve Thomas's book.
"Some friends of Patsy's were concerned about how JonBenet was being groomed for pageants with the heavy makeup, the elaborate costumes and recent addition of platinum-dyed hair. It was creating a 'mega-JonBenet thing,' and some friends had planned to have a talk about it with Patsy after Christmas."

JONBENÉT INSIDE THE RAMSEY MURDER INVESTIGATION, STEVE THOMAS

 

[AddieBoo]

Lots to unpack here, some very good points made.

I think parents who want to live vicariously through their children are often blind to the fact that their child might not want to follow in the exact footsteps of the parent. They get so caught up in how much they enjoyed it, or what a positive experience it may have been for them, it's hard to connect to the fact that the child might have different ideas about what they want to do, what makes them happy. And most kids want to please their parents, so they agree to do things that they might not decide to do if they had the choice.

I think it's important to take things in context as to who's presenting the narrative. We heard that JB loved the pageants from: Patsy, Nedra, Patsy's two sisters and eventually John in defense of his wife. We know that the Paugh women were obsessed with the pageant life, this was noted by people who knew them and worked with them. We have heard from others outside the family that JB was not all that thrilled with pageant life. She liked the talent aspect, she did not care so much for walking the runway. Her dance teacher noted that PR was the typical "stage mother". That term does not have a positive connotation.

Many of her afternoons after school were taken up by dance lessons, singing lessons, how to walk the runway and what moves PR wanted her to master. Wardrobe fittings and sessions, hair and make-up sittings. The pageants themselves may not have been every weekend, but planning for them and rehearsing for them took up a lot of time. So much so that some of PR's friends noticed just how much of an obsession it had become for her. When something crosses the line into obsession, it often then becomes unhealthy. Her friends were planning an intervention of sorts after the holidays because they recognized it had become unhealthy.

Part of the Paugh women's obsession involved constant dieting. There was the push towards being and looking perfect. The bleaching of JB's hair, the need for her costumes to be elaborate.....all in the quest for perfection. This started when JB was 4. By the time she was 6 she was starting to push back on some things.

A former babysitter told the story about picking up JB and BR for a visit after she had left the Ramsey's employ and being excited to take them to what used to be one of JB's favorite things to do together.....a trip to McDonald's. She was shocked and saddened to hear JB say, "McDonald's makes you fat". 6 years old and she had already been taught to think about her weight. JB sitting on the stairs the night of the party on the 23rd, crying because she didn't feel pretty. At one point even JR felt the need to pull her aside and have a talk with her about how important it was to be a good person and not to get too caught up in looks.

Who had a lot of friends that often were at the house playing? BR. Who had sleepovers at the Ramsey house and also at other friends houses? BR. JB did not actually have that many friends. She did not do sleepovers, either as hostess or a guest. I recall reading a story about IIRC a school function picnic. JB was dressed differently than everyone else, all dolled up. She was sitting all by herself while others were playing and having fun. People who were there noticed she seemed to be in her own world. Unsmiling, not playing, not participating. She wasn't dressed to play. It was if she was on display.

I think the pageants can have positives, but you can't ignore the negatives which also exist. I'm sure there are many girls who went through the pageant system who appreciated it. But there's always the other side. And when so much emphasis is put on outward appearances, that can really mess with self esteem. Dressing your child up as Marilyn Monroe for Halloween when the child is only 5-6 years old is a little out there IMO. Whose idea was that I wonder? Most kids that age want to be ghosts, or witches or whatever is popular at that time. How would a 5-6 year old child even know about MM unless introduced by a parent? It's hard not to notice the potential similarities here......MM had to change her name, MM had to have her widow's peak removed, MM had her hair bleached platinum blonde, MM was modeled by the studio after another actress, Rita Hayworth, MM was completely sexualized by the studio system and its bosses. MM was not allowed to be herself, they wanted a sex symbol because that's what sold tickets.

I would like to think JB could've risen above what PR had planned for her. And perhaps the start of some rebellion played a part in what happened. We know that JB was starting to clash with PR and her ideas of what to wear, how to look. I am reminded of the evening at Pasta Jay's when JB asked to put on her coat because she was cold, only to be told no by PR because she was "still on display". I can't even imagine how that must've made her feel. Looks before comfort. That sends a message to an impressionable child. Not a warm and fuzzy loving message from the one who's supposed to love you the most and have your best interests at heart. We do not know how or even if PR would've handled her pet project rejecting

Who are the "others" who said JBR was not all that thrilled about pageants? From everything I've heard, she enjoyed them.

But yes, the Paugh women were deep into pageants--they'd been involved for years.

Who exactly was planning the intervention?


According to Linda Wilcox, that's not entirely accurate. JBR didn't have friends over to stay the night, but she did attend sleepovers at their homes.

"JonBenet never had sleepovers. She slept at her friend's houses occasionally but it was never reciprocated."

Where did the story about Pasta Jay's come from?

I like to think JBR would have been tremendously successful, too.

As far as I know, there's no indication mother and daughter were "clashing," although if they did on some issues, that's perfectly normal.

I'm sure there was some "looks before comfort" going on--because pageants and beauty were involved. That's not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

I haven't heard anything from any reliable source that indicates Patsy was anything less than a good mom.

I don't have to agree with Patsy's choice to put her daughter in pageants, but I understand that Patsy herself loved pageants and had been successful, and she wanted the same for her daughter. That doesn't really fit the "living vicariously" mold because Patsy had done the same thing.

Living vicariously is more representative of a mother who never had a shot at being glamorous but always wanted to be.

Linda Hoffman Pugh has made some disturbing comments about the parenting skills of JB. She was there and testified before the GJ.
I always refer back to those 13 jurors and the four True Bills they agreed on…
JB was stressed the month of December. Her bedwetting returned and she was being SA. Did this have anything to do with her responsibilities as a six year old?

I think it’s important to criticize how Patsy inflicted the demands on a 6 year old child. IMO those representations were sexualizing JonBenet. There was nothing wholesome about them IMO. Not from the choices Patsy made for JB and consequently she was being criticized by her circle of friends. Notably the Fernies and the Whites.
Living vicariously through a child can reap loads of damage to that child. There are many accounts of young lives lost for a chance at stardom by looking the other way. This is not uncommon.
But it can also propel a parent into inappropriate and impossible demands on a child. IMO Patsy was walking a very thin line here,
and living with enormous stresses herself. December 1996 everything was escalating…