Why the DNA may NOT be important

  • #121
I don't believe the DNA cleared anyone. DNA didn't clear John mark Karr regardless of what Lacy said. Old fashioned actual police work did.
IMO it is not now nor ever a DNA case.

We have no idea whose unsourced DNA is present or how it got there. There certainly weren't SIX individuals in the basement killing JonBenet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well contrary to what you believe people were cleared by dna. And the point is that the The DNA in her panties matches the TDNA on her pants. There is just no way that that does not matter and does not clear people.
 
  • #122
I'm gonna re-post the amazing Cynics post..
There are six unique and unidentified genetic profiles – five male profiles and one female profile.
DNA testing involving fingernail scrapings from both hands revealed JonBenet’s genetic profile on both sides.
In addition to JonBenet’s profile, scrapings from the left fingernails revealed unidentified male #1
The right fingernails indicated that two further unique profiles were present, unidentified male #2, and a unique unknown female profile. (JonBenet could not be excluded as a contributor)
The waistband, seams, and crotch of panties (Distal Stain 007-2) CODIS all matched and produced the profile that has been entered into the CODIS database, unidentified male #3 (Strength/weakness of profile: 10 markers)

The above profiles were determined through typical STR DNA testing.
Touch DNA (TDNA) testing, all presumably done at the Bode facility revealed one matching profile and a further two unique profiles, both male:
TDNA on the waistband of leggings matching DS 007-2 male #3
TDNA on the wrist bindings – male #4 (Strength/weakness of profile: 6 markers)
TDNA on the “garrote” – male #5 (Strength/weakness of profile: 7 markers)

(Also, TDNA on the pink Barbie nightgown found in the Wine Cellar with the body of JonBenét was identified as belonging to BR and PR.)

A full CODIS profile has 13 markers; any profile with fewer markers is a partial profile. All DNA profiles in this case are partial profiles
The highest quality DNA, and the only profile in this case that has been entered in the CODIS database, at 10 markers, is Distal Stain 007-2
All other DNA is weaker, in other words, less markers.

Kolar’s book confirmed the speculation that the profile from one of the blood spots that eventually ended up in CODIS originally had only 9 markers.
The male DNA sample, subsequently identified as Distal Stain 007-2, only contained 9 genetic markers, and like the DNA collected from beneath JonBenét’s fingernails, was of insufficient strength to be entered into the state and national databases. Moreover, the sample was so small that technicians were not able to identify the biological origin of the exemplar.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 140

Eventually a 10th marker was identified which then met the minimum standard for entry into CODIS:

DNA replication technology was utilized in the Denver Police Department’s crime lab, and the 10th marker was eventually strengthened to the point that the unidentified male sample discovered in JonBenét’s underwear was able to be entered into the state and national databases. This laboratory success didn’t take place until 2002, nearly 6 years after the murder of JonBenét
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 140

I met with the man who had worked so diligently to enhance the DNA sample identified as Distal Stain 007-2. Denver Police Department crime lab supervisor Greg Laberge met me for lunch in early December 2005 and advised me that the forensic DNA sample collected from the underwear was microscopic, totally invisible to the naked eye. So small was it in quantity, consisting of only approximately 1/2 nanogram of genetic material, equivalent to about 100 – 150 cells, that it took him quite a bit of work to identify the 10th marker that eventually permitted its entry into the CODIS database.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 303 - 304

The profiles found from the fingernail clippings of JonBenet were presumably not from the non-sterile nail clippers that the coroner was in the habit of using.
(However, to the best of my knowledge, clippers are not used in medical autopsies, only in autopsies performed for legal reasons. I don’t know the reasons for those eight prior autopsies. Therefore, as an example, if the last time the clippers were actually used was 10 autopsies ago it would have missed by this screening process.)
Investigators were able to obtain the DNA samples from eight (8) of the autopsy examinations that preceded that of JonBenét. These samples were analyzed, but none of these matched the unknown male and female samples collected from JonBenét’s fingernails. Perhaps more disappointing, was the fact that the unknown samples lacked sufficient identifying markers that permitted their entry into the state and national DNA databases.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 137 - 138

Amylase or something else?
Laberge indicated that the sample had flashed the color of blue during CBI’s initial testing of the sample, suggesting that amylase was present. Amylase is an enzyme that can be found in saliva, and it had been theorized by other investigators in the case that someone involved in the production phase of this clothing article could have been the source of this unknown DNA sample. It was thought that this could have been deposited there by coughing, sneezing, or spitting or through a simple transfer of saliva on the hands of a garment handler.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 137 - 138

The only test that “flashes blue,” in the presence of amylase is the Phadebas test. Take note of some of the things which can produce a false positive:
What is the Phadebas Press Test? How specific is it and what can cause a false positive result?
The Phadebas Press Test uses a filterpaper “test sheet” impregnated with an insoluble starch-dye complex. The test sheets are moistened with sterile water and then laid on an article of evidence. Saliva present on the item being examined will contain α-amylase that will hydrolyze the starch in the overlying area of the test sheet. This process releases a blue dye to form a blue stain that co-localizes with the position of the saliva stain. Areas of the evidence that do not contain α-amylase should not show the presence of a blue stain. Phadebas Press Test provides only a presumptive indication of saliva and is not human specific. This test is known to yield false positive results with fecal samples and some investigators have reported positive results with vaginal swabs, human milk, some plant materials and the saliva of animals including dogs and cats. Positive results have also been reported as very likely resulting from secondary transfer of saliva (e.g., from the hands to an article of clothing).
http://forsci-associates.com/serologysaliva.html

Pro and con for the “sweatshop” theory
Pro:
The male sample identified in Distal Stain 007-2 was weak, and degraded to begin with, and weaker samples of the same genetic material were found in the waistband and leg bands of the underwear. It was observed that these were areas of the clothing that would have been handled more strenuously during the production phase of the clothing article.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 304
Con:
Laberge advised, confirming what Tom Bennett had previously shared with me, that some random DNA tests had been conducted in ‘off-the-shelf’ children’s underwear
[SNIP]
He indicated that DNA samples had been located on the articles of new clothing, but that they had been approximately 1/10 the strength of the unknown sample found in JonBenét’s underwear.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 304 - 305

Conclusions (from the book.)

Laberge indicated that it was his opinion that the male sample of DNA could have been deposited there by a perpetrator, or that there could have been some other explanation for its presence, totally unrelated to the crime. I would learn that many other scientists held the same opinion.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 305

The same theoretical principles of transfer thought to be involved in the DNA collected from beneath JonBenét’s nails could be applied to the transfer of genetic material from her underwear to the leggings. “Cloth to cloth” transfer could be responsible for this new evidence.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 427

I believed, as did many of the other investigators working the case, that that there may have been a plausible explanation for the DNA found in the underwear and that its presence may have had nothing whatsoever to do with the death of JonBenét. The presence of this DNA is a question that remains to be resolved, but it continues to be my opinion that this single piece of DNA evidence has to be considered in light of all of the other physical, behavioral, and statement evidence that has been collected over the course of the investigation.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 305
Last edited by cynic; July 22, 2012, 7:26 pm at Sun Jul 22 19:26:48 CDT 2012.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #123
You can repost it over and over it does not make it accurate or true.
As for the book references they can say whatever they dang well please in their book.

The FBI has the DNA in CODIS. They don't do that unless it can be matched .IT is that simple.
 
  • #124
How come the actual full report was never released?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #125
How come the actual full report was never released?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It does not matter. What matters is the FBI accepts this DNA as true and relevant evidence. They have put it into CODIS and have used this DNA to clear people.

Why the full report was not released is anyone's guess or story.. but the fact that it was or not does not change the level of DNA in this case.
 
  • #126
It can be spun and whitewashed forever by intruder theorists but the DNA was fragmentary and none of the samples matched and it was illegally handled and presented by Mary Lacy who teamed up with Michael Tracey to bring us JMK.
 
  • #127
<respectfully snipped and BBM>

If Kolar&#8217;s description of the DNA is accurate, than at least some of the unsourced DNA is going to be from innocent transfer &#8211; the fingernail DNA, possibly the DNA found on the ligatures. But, the CODIS sample and the matching tDNA? It&#8217;s pretty hard to find a reasonable and likely innocent explanation for that.
...

AK

It is reasonable to assume that DNA under JonBenet's fingernails could easily self-transfer to her long johns and panties. The same can be said for DNA from under Patsy, John or Burke's fingernails. There are innumerable ways the four Ramseys, or anyone, could pick up artifact DNA and transfer it.

It is reasonable to assume the garment could have been mishandled since in 1996 maintaining a chain of custody was a priority but handling evidence to maintain pristine DNA evidence was not understood like it is today.

The Codis sample had to be amplified before CODIS would accept it. It was not a full, native profile and it reportedly was degraded.

It is unreasonable to decide guilt or innocence on such indirect evidence and even more so to decide guilt or innocence only on one piece of evidence, especially that which is questionable. Saying the TDNA and the minute mixed sample in the panty belong to the killer is ludicrous without other direct evidence that goes along with those samples.
 
  • #128
Well contrary to what you believe people were cleared by dna. And the point is that the The DNA in her panties matches the TDNA on her pants. There is just no way that that does not matter and does not clear people.

Past and present investigators do not agree with you about anyone being cleared. They said so in public statements which are easily found with Google.
 
  • #129
It does not matter. What matters is the FBI accepts this DNA as true and relevant evidence. They have put it into CODIS and have used this DNA to clear people.



Why the full report was not released is anyone's guess or story.. but the fact that it was or not does not change the level of DNA in this case.


Please provide a link that the FBI cleared anyone in the Ramsey case based on that codis DNA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #130
This article is about low copy number DNA. The DNA in the Ramsey case is not LCN. The article is not relevant to the Ramsey case.

I disagree. It is quite relevant in establishing guidelines for analyzing the usefulness of DNA of various quality. The JonBenet DNA had to be amplified in one instance and it was Touch DNA in the other. The principles are the same and the article clearly uses the word "touch."
 
  • #131
You can repost it over and over it does not make it accurate or true.
As for the book references they can say whatever they dang well please in their book.

The FBI has the DNA in CODIS. They don't do that unless it can be matched .IT is that simple.

BBM.

What????
 
  • #132
Past and present investigators do not agree with you about anyone being cleared. They said so in public statements which are easily found with Google.

That is great.. They collected DNA from many people. Those people don't match the DNA. That is simple. If they did there would be a valid suspect.

There is no way around the DNA in CODIS. It is there to match someone that was there that night. If it did we would not be here today.
 
  • #133
That is great.. They collected DNA from many people. Those people don't match the DNA. That is simple. If they did there would be a valid suspect.



There is no way around the DNA in CODIS. It is there to match someone that was there that night. If it did we would not be here today.


Nope. Even if and that's a huge if, the DNA in codis was sourced ...still have to prove the source was actually in Boulder that night in the Ramsey's basement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #134
Nope. Even if and that's a huge if, the DNA in codis was sourced ...still have to prove the source was actually in Boulder that night in the Ramsey's basement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And? I am not sure how that negates the DNA that IS in CODIS. Do you know how many cases that have DNA in CODIS are just waiting for the right suspect? Just because they are waiting for a match does not negate the weight of the DNA. WE know it is not one of the R's. The DNA does not match them. That is simple.

DNA is not negotiable. It is what it is. IT is used to solve crimes. It is used to exclude people.
 
  • #135
You should post; degraded, fragmentary, incomplete profile DNA illegally handled and presented by Mary Lacy who with Michael Tracey brought us JMK instead of just DNA when you talk about the degraded, fragmentary, incomplete profile illegally handled and presented by Mary Lacy who with Michael Tracey brought us JMK Ramsey case DNA.
 
  • #136
And? I am not sure how that negates the DNA that IS in CODIS. Do you know how many cases that have DNA in CODIS are just waiting for the right suspect? Just because they are waiting for a match does not negate the weight of the DNA. WE know it is not one of the R's. The DNA does not match them. That is simple.

DNA is not negotiable. It is what it is. IT is used to solve crimes. It is used to exclude people.

I don't know where the myth of the infallibility of DNA testing comes from but it is simply not true. There have been several errors in paternity testing. And those are full profiles!

Once you start dealing with partial profiles the chances of a coincidental match are greatly increased.

But the best reason to be skeptical of DNA infallibility is those few who were both convicted and exonerated by DNA evidence (Timothy Durham and Josiah Sutton to name a few).

No matter what, if the DNA is ever matched with anyone it will take more than that to convict. That person will have to be placed in CO, in that house with more than just a few skin cells to back it up, the RN will have to be linked to them as well.
 
  • #137
No matter what, if the DNA is ever matched with anyone it will take more than that to convict. That person will have to be placed in CO, in that house with more than just a few skin cells to back it up, the RN will have to be linked to them as well.

THe DNA puts that person in the house, But I agree other evidence will then come into play also. But you can not ignore the DNA or say it is not relevant because it is or there would be no CODIS. There is a reason they collect DNA from crime scenes so they can match suspects to other crimes.

It is real and accurate Evidence.
 
  • #138
In other cases but not in the Ramsey case because it is degraded, fragmentary, incomplete profile DNA illegally handled and presented by Mary Lacy who with Michael Tracey brought us JMK.
 
  • #139
THe DNA puts that person in the house, But I agree other evidence will then come into play also. But you can not ignore the DNA or say it is not relevant because it is or there would be no CODIS. There is a reason they collect DNA from crime scenes so they can match suspects to other crimes.

It is real and accurate Evidence.

....I can and will say, at this point, DNA in this case is not relevant.
I have seen no report, I have not heard anything definitive by DNA experts that the profile is complete or relevant for conviction. It has not passed Daubert or Frye and the interpretation of the results has not been challenged in any official or professional way.

You can only speak of general accuracy for DNA testing as a whole, not this particular case. Not yet.
 
  • #140
....I can and will say, at this point, DNA in this case is not relevant.
I have seen no report, I have not heard anything definitive by DNA experts that the profile is complete or relevant for conviction. It has not passed Daubert or Frye and the interpretation of the results has not been challenged in any official or professional way.

You can only speak of general accuracy for DNA testing as a whole, not this particular case. Not yet.

In your opinion.

There is no definite yet. But NO case ever throws out DNA as irrelevant before they find the person it matches. That is just bad police work. DNA is relevant in this case. IT is relevant and it points to someone. It has been used to exclude people. It matters. IMO
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
107
Guests online
1,762
Total visitors
1,869

Forum statistics

Threads
632,329
Messages
18,624,751
Members
243,090
Latest member
digitalescape
Back
Top