Why the DNA may NOT be important

  • #321
You just said what I just said. But, you didn’t answer my question.
No, AK, you said this (bbm):
Yes, well Lacey said “artifact,” but I’m not sure if that is what she meant. Artifacts are errors in the electropherogram.

Of course, Lacey is talking about the CODIS sample. She is talking before the discovery of the tDNA. And, she is correct, the DNA isn’t necessarily the killer’s; but, it probably is.

What point are you trying to make?
...

AK
To which I responded (bbm):
I don't really think Lacy was talking about "errors in the electropherogram". The word "artifact" has too many meanings/applications (depending on the context) to assume that's what she meant. Did JonBenet's autopsy reveal a "slight drying error in the electropherogram" on the tip of her tongue? Listen to Lacy's comment again. She's not talking about the science behind the DNA, she's saying that the presence of the DNA may be an artifact in the evidence.

More about artifacts:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Premeditated?
As to not answering your question, I guess you are referring to my point? C'mon, AK. We may disagree on a few things, but I certainly give you credit for enough intelligence to get "the point". If you're trying to feign obliviousness, it didn't work. If you really didn't get the point... nevermind.
 
  • #322
Boy, oh boy. I really didn’t want to get into the DNA stuff that deep. I should know when I’m in over my head. Or as my dad always said, “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and let people wonder if you’re stupid than to open it and confirm it for them.” But here goes:

My understanding about the “distal stain 007-2” is this (and if I’m incorrect, somebody/anybody jump right in and correct me). One of the two blood stains that was found in the crotch of her panties was identified as “Exhibit #7” when it was first processed. At that time it was determined that the “major component” (the blood itself) belonged to JonBenet. They recognize that this sample was mixed with a minor component belonging to at least one other person. Their determination at that time was that if the minor component were from only one person, nine named individuals could not be the contributor. But they recognized that if there were more than one contributor, those nine named individuals could not be excluded.

(Here is where my ignorance may show through.) Later with advances in the technology, they were able to separate the minor component from the other blood stain for further testing and managed to “enhance” the results to raise the 9 markers and one faint marker to 10 full markers making the results meet the minimum requirement for entry into CODIS. As I understand all this, that minor component (since it was segregated from the sample identified as #7) was labeled as “distal stain 007-2”. The meaning of the word “distal” I’m not certain of as to how it relates in DNA testing. Is it referring to where it was physically found within the blood stain (on the outer boundaries away from the center), or is it referring to where the elements of the DNA nucleotides are found in relation to the gene sequence (http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Distal_promoter)?

Again, I’m getting in way over my head here even attempting to speculate. But it was this segregated minor component that in earlier testing had had the “if” qualifier attached to it. I don’t know whether the later testing was able to determine the exact number of contributors; but from what I understand so far, with so few markers (9-1/2) it seems like a stretch to attach too much significance to it -- especially considering the size of what was found (1/2 ng, or about 100 to 150 cells). Add to this the point from my previous reference to the “Phantom of Heilbronn”. Investigators had used “sterile” swabs for their DNA testing before discovering that “sterile” didn’t necessarily mean free from human DNA. I see too many possibilities for human error in evidence handling (e.g., a lab technician using latex gloves as was acceptable practice in 1996, but handling multiple items of evidence thereby transferring microscopic trace amounts of DNA from one item to another) to think that the reliability of what has been thrown out there by Lacy is sacrosanct. As far as I can determine from looking for a source, she was the only one with access to the evidence who claimed that there was a “match” between the DNA in distal stain 007-2 to the tDNA found on the waistband of the leggings. But even using the word “match” in regards to DNA testing shows a lack of understanding of the process and the science behind it. At most one could say there is a high statistical probability that two samples are from the same person. But considering the fact that in this case, one was a partial DNA profile barely meeting the requirement for CODIS acceptance, and the other was too low to be accepted... Well, you can see the stretch it is to say the two are a “match”. Cynic again discusses this very nicely in his first post in this thread at FFJ (there are also several other noteworthy posts in this thread by him and by KoldKase as well):
DNA revisited in light of James Kolar’s book - Forums For Justice
[Note that in Cynic’s Post #12, he mentions that “The TDNA found on the leggings/long johns matched the waistband of the Bloomies. (All partial DNA profiles.)” Could Lacy have confused which of the samples was the “match” that she referred to?]


Yes, yes. *applauds*

And also yes, the 7 in both profile descriptors adds to the confusion.

The basis of the Rs "exclusion/ exoneration" declaration stems from MLs word in her press release.

And as I said earlier I find Mary *I'm telling you the Rs are excluded without providing any facts to support my statement* Lacy declarations suspect. And ditto regarding her remarks about the "value of the previous scientific evidence,” and her “full appreciation for the other evidence in this case.”

It's significant to note that SG pretty much dismissed her conclusions.


BTW OTG, empty you in box!
 
  • #323
Nope. Cynic has this wrong.

First, let’s remember that the samples referenced in the screen capture used an older technology; and, we’re only talking five (iirc) markers. That’s all they looked for. The 13 STR markers used for the CODIS and tDNA samples were being developed at this time and were not yet in full or wide use.

The Mixture Theory originally posted by Cynic references the 13 STR loci used by CODIS and these are NOT what was used for the results seen in the screen capture; however, it still remains true that family members often share one or more markers.

If the exhibits #7, 14L and 14 M were composed of more than two contributors (let’s say 3), than we would have Jonbenet, possibly one other Ramsey PLUS the unknown male.

The marker (one or more) used to determine the presence of an unknown male excludes any and all of the Ramseys, however, one (or more) of the markers believed to be Jonbenet’s could actually be from another Ramsey (family members often share one or more markers).
...

AK

“Full siblings born to unrelated parents have identical STR profiles at an average of four of the thirteen CODIS core loci, compared to, on average, identity at less than a single locus among unrelated individuals. My data set included a sibling pair with identity at nine of the thirteen CODIS core loci, and another colleague has informed us of an eleven locus match in a brother and sister
DNA and the Criminal Justice System: The Technology of Justice –by David Lazer
Hypothetically (with my admittedly limited knowledge), this would mean that with only 9-1/2 markers in the distal stain 007-2, Burke's DNA could very well be hidden within the results of JonBenet's.
 
  • #324
Nope.
...

AK

Do you have a link to that info? I mean this other lab report that is supposedly being referenced here?
So there were 2 tests done: test 1 is the "if" qualifier and test 2 is what you're talking about. Correct?
 
  • #325
Again, I will ask you...where is the proof of exclusion..

I strongly suspect that you don’t understand what exclusion means. Since you don’t seem to believe that the Ramseys were excluded perhaps you could show me where it is said that the Ramseys are included as possible contributors to the CODIS (the distal stain) sample and/or the tDNA.

Also, please see Kolar pages 413 – 414. The answers you seek are there.
...

AK
 
  • #326
Boy, oh boy. I really didn’t want to get into the DNA stuff that deep. I should know when I’m in over my head. Or as my dad always said, “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and let people wonder if you’re stupid than to open it and confirm it for them.” But here goes:

My understanding about the “distal stain 007-2” is this (and if I’m incorrect, somebody/anybody jump right in and correct me). One of the two blood stains that was found in the crotch of her panties was identified as “Exhibit #7” when it was first processed. At that time it was determined that the “major component” (the blood itself) belonged to JonBenet. They recognize that this sample was mixed with a minor component belonging to at least one other person. Their determination at that time was that if the minor component were from only one person, nine named individuals could not be the contributor. But they recognized that if there were more than one contributor, those nine named individuals could not be excluded.

(Here is where my ignorance may show through.) Later with advances in the technology, they were able to separate the minor component from the other blood stain for further testing and managed to “enhance” the results to raise the 9 markers and one faint marker to 10 full markers making the results meet the minimum requirement for entry into CODIS. As I understand all this, that minor component (since it was segregated from the sample identified as #7) was labeled as “distal stain 007-2”. The meaning of the word “distal” I’m not certain of as to how it relates in DNA testing. Is it referring to where it was physically found within the blood stain (on the outer boundaries away from the center), or is it referring to where the elements of the DNA nucleotides are found in relation to the gene sequence (http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Distal_promoter)?

Again, I’m getting in way over my head here even attempting to speculate. But it was this segregated minor component that in earlier testing had had the “if” qualifier attached to it. I don’t know whether the later testing was able to determine the exact number of contributors; but from what I understand so far, with so few markers (9-1/2) it seems like a stretch to attach too much significance to it -- especially considering the size of what was found (1/2 ng, or about 100 to 150 cells). Add to this the point from my previous reference to the “Phantom of Heilbronn”. Investigators had used “sterile” swabs for their DNA testing before discovering that “sterile” didn’t necessarily mean free from human DNA. I see too many possibilities for human error in evidence handling (e.g., a lab technician using latex gloves as was acceptable practice in 1996, but handling multiple items of evidence thereby transferring microscopic trace amounts of DNA from one item to another) to think that the reliability of what has been thrown out there by Lacy is sacrosanct. As far as I can determine from looking for a source, she was the only one with access to the evidence who claimed that there was a “match” between the DNA in distal stain 007-2 to the tDNA found on the waistband of the leggings. But even using the word “match” in regards to DNA testing shows a lack of understanding of the process and the science behind it. At most one could say there is a high statistical probability that two samples are from the same person. But considering the fact that in this case, one was a partial DNA profile barely meeting the requirement for CODIS acceptance, and the other was too low to be accepted... Well, you can see the stretch it is to say the two are a “match”. Cynic again discusses this very nicely in his first post in this thread at FFJ (there are also several other noteworthy posts in this thread by him and by KoldKase as well):
DNA revisited in light of James Kolar’s book - Forums For Justice
[Note that in Cynic’s Post #12, he mentions that “The TDNA found on the leggings/long johns matched the waistband of the Bloomies. (All partial DNA profiles.)” Could Lacy have confused which of the samples was the “match” that she referred to?]
There is definitely some confusion here, but #7 from the screen capture and the distal stain were taken from separate blood spots. See timeline below (I’m not sure if the link still works).

Your understanding of the distal stain is somewhat mixed. The sample from the distal stain is the sample that ended up in CODIS. The sample with the “IF” qualifier is a separate sample and this sample was tested in 1997 (see timeline below) – before the 13 STR standard. You’re confusing two separate samples tested using two different technologies!!!

Also, it is ridiculous – sorry, no offence intended, but it is ridiculous to state that a 9 ½ marker sample should not be given much significance. What do you base this claim on?

All of your concerns regarding handling, etc are valid. But, these concerns are regard contamination, and contamination can be ruled out as being likely because 1) protocols in place that guard against and test for it, 2) persons associated with the investigation and autopsy have been compared and “cleared,” and, the articles of clothing in question were tested in separate labs.

It isn’t a stretch to say that the samples match; you can say that because not all the markers were present that these two samples did not necessarily come from the same source. But, they probably (almost certainly) did.

DNA Testing Timeline
• DNA Samples Collected in 1997. All the original samples of DNA collected from family and close friends were collected in early 1997, starting in mid-January.
• New Technology 1999. In 1999, the "FBI released a new technology called Short Tandem Repeat to profile DNA. It uses 13 markers to raise the probability that a randomly selected individual would match it is one in 1 quintillion."
• 2001 Testing. "The new testing is allowed after a legal battle in Colorado's courts, and JonBenet's underwear is analyzed again resulting in between one and two markers out of 13 being defined."
• 2003 Testing. A "second blood spot on JonBenet's underwear tested resulting in between nine and 10 markers on the spot to be defined."
• Submission to CODIS. "That genetic fingerprint meets the threshold to be placed into a national database, Combined DNA Indexing System or CODIS, which holds DNA profiles of those convicted in most states of certain crimes."
• The Daily Camera news coverage of the forensic evidence is here.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:H9uXTx6d1soJ:m.dailycamera.com/news/2006/Aug/28/jonbenet-ramsey-dna-timeline/+"DNA+Timeline"+Jonbenet&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
...

AK
 
  • #327
No, AK, you said this (bbm):
To which I responded (bbm):
As to not answering your question, I guess you are referring to my point? C'mon, AK. We may disagree on a few things, but I certainly give you credit for enough intelligence to get "the point". If you're trying to feign obliviousness, it didn't work. If you really didn't get the point... nevermind.

My, “I’m not sure if that is what she meant. Artifacts are errors in the electropherogram.” is the same as your “I don't really think Lacy was talking about ‘errors in the electropherogram.’” So, yes, we said the same thing.

And, no, I don’t get your point.
...

AK
 
  • #328

“Full siblings born to unrelated parents have identical STR profiles at an average of four of the thirteen CODIS core loci, compared to, on average, identity at less than a single locus among unrelated individuals. My data set included a sibling pair with identity at nine of the thirteen CODIS core loci, and another colleague has informed us of an eleven locus match in a brother and sister
DNA and the Criminal Justice System: The Technology of Justice –by David Lazer
Hypothetically (with my admittedly limited knowledge), this would mean that with only 9-1/2 markers in the distal stain 007-2, Burke's DNA could very well be hidden within the results of JonBenet's.
Perhaps, except they should have been able to separate female from male, and more importantly they should have been able to exclude with greater confidence because of the number of markers – you can exclude on the basis of one.
...

AK
 
  • #329
Do you have a link to that info? I mean this other lab report that is supposedly being referenced here?
So there were 2 tests done: test 1 is the "if" qualifier and test 2 is what you're talking about. Correct?
Yes, see the DNA timeline as posted above. Also, note that there were THREE test done on the panties.
...

AK
 
  • #330
I strongly suspect that you don’t understand what exclusion means. Since you don’t seem to believe that the Ramseys were excluded perhaps you could show me where it is said that the Ramseys are included as possible contributors to the CODIS (the distal stain) sample and/or the tDNA.

Also, please see Kolar pages 413 – 414. The answers you seek are there.
...

AK

I just read pages 413-414, are you saying that there were 6 intruders?
Pages 425-426, distal stain 007-2 is a partial microscopic sample. So we are to believe this 007-2 profile is from the intruder, and the other 5 profiles are just innocent transfer? Who's to say that this partial microscopic profile isn't just innocent transfer?
 
  • #331
I seriously love reading Cynic's posts, and try to go back and do so as often as I can.

I'm not saying I have anywhere near the knowledge he has, or any at all for that matter, but even with my limited knowledge, it seems obvious that when you have a questionable profile (the panties) and declare there was a "match" made with another questionable profile (the long johns) and then turn around and use that "match" to conclude not only that there is conclusive evidence of DNA from the killer, but also to "exclude" people is so far beyond what is considered scientifically acceptable it's laughable.

But that's just me :)

Frequently those finding the tDNA as the final smoking gun solution to the crime mention the ”match” between the tDNA and the panties 007 2 sample. What you, BettyBaby00, and otg brought up regarding the difference between “consistent with” and “matching” is worth exploring a bit. A question Cynic brings up is just how many tDNA markers “matched” (the word “matched” is ML’s) the panties Distal 007 2 sample. We don’t know. No one has shared the contents of that report with the public. As Cynic says, it’s pretty ridiculous to claim a “match” if it’s only a few markers.

Also, in a discussion between Cynic, Tricia and Dr. Krane the question was asked about an exoneration of the Rs based on this DNA. To re-quote -
Cynic: When you and I talked I just asked you as a hypothetical, if a District Attorney is, for example, exonerating people that were suspects for many years based exclusively on the DNA that we’ve just discussed here, is that an overreach?
Dr. Krane: Well, let me draw particular attention to the word, “exclusively”: right, if that is the sole basis for the decision, I think that conveys a lack of understanding of what’s involved with those particular types of DNA test results. (Before anyone brings up ML’s stated other "exculpatory evidence” we also are left in the dark as to what that is because it is left vague in ML’s letter to the R’s and in her press announcement.)

Recall what Carol McKinney of Fox News stated, that when asked ML claimed she did not know about the other tDNA found. According to Kolar, ML’s investigator Horita knew about the other samples of tDNA. Kolar essentially questions that ML did not know and moreover, did not allow the public to know about the other samples before she apologized to and exonerated the Rs.

For me, from these instances, one could be led to question ML’s judgment, her knowledge of DNA, and her motivations. So, it may just come down to the “Who Do You Trust?” question otg posed.

Call me cynical, but as politicized as this case was, Meara's examples of deductive reasoning could be helpful to apply --maybe just for me. :)

All public officials always speak the undistorted truth.
ML was a public official.
Therefore, ML always spoke the undistorted truth.

Only caveat is the first premise has to be true for the conclusion to be true. mho
 
  • #332
I just read pages 413-414, are you saying that there were 6 intruders?
Pages 425-426, distal stain 007-2 is a partial microscopic sample. So we are to believe this 007-2 profile is from the intruder, and the other 5 profiles are just innocent transfer? Who's to say that this partial microscopic profile isn't just innocent transfer?

Horita confirmed the public announcements Lacy had made
about matching DNA found in the leggings worn by JonBenét.

He went on to report, however, that additional samples of trace
male DNA had been discovered on the cord used in the wrist
bindings, and the garrote that had killed JonBenét. These trace
“Touch DNA” samples were genetically unique from one another,
and were believed to belong to different individuals.

It took several moments for this information to be absorbed
by the cadre of law enforcement experts filling the room before
one of the female laboratory technicians voiced her observation.

It went something like this:

“Are you telling me, based on trace Touch DNA testing results,
that we are now looking at six different people being involved in
this murder?”

Horita reluctantly nodded his head.

We collectively recapped the DNA evidence that had been
analyzed in this investigation, and it included the following:

1.) There had been trace DNA samples collected from beneath
JonBenét’s fingernails of both hands during autopsy that
was identified as belonging to her.

2.) There had been trace DNA samples collected from beneath
her left fingernails during autopsy that belonged to an
unidentified male.84

3.) There had been trace DNA samples collected from beneath
her right fingernails during autopsy that belonged to
another unidentified male, and a female. (JonBenét could
not be eliminated as a possible contributor of the female
DNA.)

4.) There had been trace DNA samples located in the crotch
and waistband of her underwear that belonged to an
unidentified male. This became known as Distal Stain
007-2.

5.) The new technology of Touch DNA identified trace
samples in the waistband of the leggings that matched
the unidentified male DNA (Distal Stain 007-2) in the
underwear.

6.) The new technology of Touch DNA had located another
sample of DNA located on the wrist bindings that
belonged to a different unidentified male.

7.) The new technology of Touch DNA had located another
sample of DNA located on the garrote that belonged to yet
another unidentified male.

By our count, we were looking at six separate and independent
DNA samples that belonged to unknown individuals, comprising
a group that consisted of five males and one female.

But there was more.

Horita indicated that Touch DNA testing had discovered traces
of genetic material on the pink Barbie nightgown found in the
Wine Cellar with the body of JonBenét. This Touch DNA belonged
to Patsy and Burke Ramsey.

No surprise there: they all lived in the same house.

So, what is the takeaway that we may derive from this information?

In my view, it demonstrates the advances that our scientific
community has made in the application of the forensic sciences.

[snip]

The point to be made is that Touch DNA is relatively new
technology, and we are still trying to understand the parameters of
its capabilities.

Does the discovery of the additional samples of “touch” male
DNA on implements used in JonBenét’s murder truly mean that
we should be searching for an entire group of individuals who
participated in this crime?

Or should we interpret this trace evidence in another manner?

Is it possible that new technology is capable of identifying
trace evidence, naked to the human eye, which has nothing to
do with the transfer of DNA evidence that occurred during the
actual commission of a crime?

Is it possible that these trace samples of DNA were deposited
on these items of evidence at a time prior to the murder of this
little girl?

There are numerous examples across the nation where courts
have thrown out critical physical evidence due to some type of
contamination taking place during laboratory testing. A technician
forgets to change a pair of gloves, and microscopic trace evidence
from one crime is transferred to the evidence of another.

I can’t help but wonder, what the hell makes this case so
different? Why are we not giving consideration to the possibility
that all of these pieces of trace evidence were in place long before
these articles came into contact with JonBenét Ramsey? Are we
afraid to even consider other options in our evaluation of this case,
and in our pursuit of the truth?

First point is probably why this passage was referenced.

It's an ambiguous statement b/c it doesn't specifically state what was "confirmed." I know Kolar makes reference to the samples "matching," and he always seems to emphasis the word, possibly b/c he finds it far reaching. IDK, to me the comment is about the "samples matching" not about anyone being excluded. He also states several times that the CODIS sample is mixed. no where in his book does Kolar make any reference to the Rs being excluded by the DNA evidence.

It's a vey specific term in this context, and NO ONE ever uses it, not Lacy or even Wood whenever he proudly mentions the Rs were exonerated.

I find that suspect.
 
  • #333
This is previous post by Cynic. I found it especially useful when comparing it to the timeline previously posted.

Also of special interest was the example case he presents regarding the subjectivity that can be found among different analysts, resulting in different conclusions despite all of them looking at the same "evidence."

Really?
It is a fact that the profile in CODIS from one of two sampled spots from JonBenet’s panties is a minor, partial profile; the major profile was from JonBenet.
It is a fact that according to the Ramseys own attorney (Lin Wood) that that profile was only 9 markers and 1 marker that was below standard.
It has nine clear markers and a 10th marker which is just at meeting the standard.
-Lin Wood
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...11/lkl.00.html

Through an unrevealed process that marker went from below standard to meeting the standard and the profile ended up in CODIS. IOW, it’s in CODIS by the skin of its teeth.
It may well be that the marker in question may have been originally considered to be stutter, but perhaps further evaluation deemed it to be an actual marker. I would like to see an independent review of what happened there.
It may have been that another analyst simply deemed the “iffy” marker to be sound as DNA analysis is often quite subjective. Consider the example below:
We took a mixed sample of DNA evidence from an actual crime scene- a gang rape committed in Georgia, US- which helped to convict a man called Kerry Robinson, who is currently in prison. We presented it, and Robinson's DNA profile, to 17 experienced analysts working in the same accredited government lab in the US, without any contextual information that might bias their judgement.
In the original case, two analysts from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation concluded that Robinson "could not be excluded" from the crime scene sample, based on his DNA profile. (A second man convicted of the same crime also testified that Robinson was an assailant, in return for a lesser jail term.) Each of our 17 analysts independently examined the profiles from the DNA mixture, the victim's profile and those of two other suspects and was asked to judge whether the suspects' profiles could be "excluded", "cannot be excluded" or whether the results were "inconclusive".
If DNA analysis were totally objective, then all 17 analysts should reach the same conclusion. However, we found that just one agreed with the original judgement that Robinson "cannot be excluded". Four analysts said the evidence was inconclusive and 12 said he could be excluded.
"Fingerprinting and other forensic disciplines have now accepted that subjectivity and context may affect their judgement and decisions," says Dror. "It is now time that DNA analysts accept that under certain conditions, subjectivity and even bias may affect their work." Dror presented the results at the Green Mountain DNA conference in Burlington, Vermont, last month.
Varying the identity of the suspect changed the answers that DNA analysts gave.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727733.500-fallible-dna-evidence-can-mean-prison-or-freedom.html?full=true

The weakness of this DNA was even mentioned by Tom Bennet, Mary Lacy’s investigator in response to some outrageous spin by the same people who fueled the Aphrodite Jones special, Ramsey “investigators”:
It may seem like the JonBenet Ramsey case is close to being solved because of a weekend media blitz on the subject, but the man handling the investigation said there`s been no breakthrough in the 8-year-old case.
Contrary to what was reported on a "48 Hours" special that aired Saturday night on CBS, DNA evidence found in JonBenet`s underwear doesn`t necessarily belong to the killer, Boulder County District Attorney`s Office investigator Tom Bennett said Monday. The office took over the Ramsey case two years ago and entered the DNA evidence into a national database for the first time earlier this year.
"The DNA on the underwear may be from the killer, but it may not be," Bennett said. "It`s minute DNA…
http://www.coloradodaily.com/ci_13061222#ixzz1W08wVwXF

“It can only exclude or include him as the possible killer. It can never be 100 percent,'' a forensic scientist, Dr. Henry Lee, said Saturday, noting that investigators only have a partial profile to work with.
“There was different DNA and mixture DNA that was hard to develop a profile from,'' said Bob Grant, a former prosecutor from neighboring Adams County who was an adviser in the case.
JonBenet Murder Case Heats Up Boulder, Colo.
Saturday August 19, 2006 9:16 PM
By CHASE SQUIRES
Associated Press Writer

It is a fact that Mary Lacy was willing to throw the DNA entered in CODIS under the bus to potentially prosecute Karr, if only she could find some other evidence to connect him.
(There, of course, was none. It was a completely baseless arrest.)

"The DNA could be an artifact," Lacy said in August. "It isn't necessarily the killer's. There's a probability that it's the killer's. But it could be something else."
…
"Where you have DNA, particularly where it's found in this case, prosecuting another (suspect) that doesn't match that DNA is highly problematic," she said. "It's not impossible, but it's highly problematic - and it doesn't make any difference who it is.
http://m.rockymountainnews.com/news/...23/miss-steps/

Obviously if the DNA was such that she felt she could proceed with prosecuting a suspect that did not match the DNA, then clearly it is not the almighty, unassailable DNA that IDI purports it to be.
The next IDI argument is usually, “the DNA entered in CODIS is corroborated by matching DNA found through touch DNA on the waistband of the long johns worn by JonBenet.”
It is a fact that further DNA was found through touch DNA.
The relevance of this, or any DNA evidence, is tied to the amount of markers present, and there is no legitimate source that provides us with that information with respect to what was found by the touch DNA analysis.
There is no indication that this is anything but another partial profile, and if we are to believe Patsy’s story that she put the long johns on JonBenet as she slept, then it also probable that DNA sampled from the waistband would yield a mixed partial profile which would include PR. It is also possible that if John Ramsey held her along the waistband as he carried her upstairs that markers from his profile may be present as well, not to mention JonBenet’s profile.

PR: And so I went to these drawers looking for the pajamas, and she was just laying there,
so I didn't want to raise her up and get everything off of her to put a long nightgown, so looking for pajamas bottoms to put on her. I couldn't find any, and the long underwear pants were in there drawer, so I got those.
Interview, Patsy Ramsey, 1998

PR: We just left her top on her.
TT: . . .you leave the top on. . .
PR: Yeah.
TT: . . .uh, find a pair of. . .
PR: bottoms.
TT: . . .bottoms for her to wear. Um, did she wake up at all during this?
PR: No.
TT: Stayed pretty crashed out?
PR: Uh huh.
TT: Okay. Sound asleep the whole time then.
PR: Um hum.
LE interview, Patsy Ramsey, 1997

“A few moments later Ramsey picked up his daughter. Rigor mortis had set in and her body was rigid. Holding her by the waist like a plank of wood, he raced down the short hallway and up the basement stairs, yelling that JonBenét had been found.”
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 18

With respect to the word “match” as it has been used in the JonBenet case, let me say that there is cause for concern.
Given the previous debacle with the so called “matching” fingernail DNA evidence, can we trust that this is a legitimate match?
Here is a statement from Ramsey PI’s:
“Agustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...l?tag=untagged
Sounds convincing doesn’t it, until you are made aware that there are merely two markers “matching” the 9 – 10 marker CODIS profile.
(Lou Smit in a deposition revealed that the fingernail scrapings from JonBenet’s right hand revealed 2 markers. This means that the DNA was so degraded that it bordered on being completely unusable.)
Why not reveal the number of matching markers between the touch DNA from the long johns and the CODIS profile based on DNA from JonBenet’s underwear?
Could it be that the DNA profile derived from the long johns is a weak profile, perhaps yet another mixed, partial profile consisting of only a few markers?
I’m quite confident that given Lacy’s bias, she would not hesitate to clear the Ramseys based on a “match” consisting of a few markers.
Did the BPD and the independent task force review the evidence including the touch DNA evidence only to find that Lacy was perhaps “stretching” the definition of “match?”
Could this be why the Ramseys were un-exonerated?
Regardless, there are certainly innocent ways that DNA can turn up in a crime scene, even in multiple matching locations and be completely unrelated to the true perpetrator of the crime.
Here are some examples:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)

Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Problems with DNA

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - DNA Revisited

There is simply far too much evidence pointing to the Ramseys, as the body of evidence is considered in totality, to be led astray by what must be DNA deposited by adventitious means and, as such, unrelated to the crime.

See above, also the following links:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Unknown male DNA and the panties discussion

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)
 
  • #334
There is simply far too much unsourced forensic evidence, and a total lack of evidence, motive, means, etc. implicating the Ramseys (nor any individual Ramsey), in the assault and/ormurder of JonBenét.
 
  • #335
All the evidence, and there is a ton of it, points to Patsy as the sole perpetrator of the deliberate murder of Jonbenet.
 
  • #336
...except for hairs, fibers, prints, DNA, handwriting, etc. Imagination not required.
 
  • #337
It's all about the totality of the evidence. There is no one "smoking gun" but pieces that fit together to complete the whole. Some pieces are missing and I'm afraid will always be lost. But I am all but sure, in my opinion, that one or more of the R's had a part in what happened on December 25, 1996 in their home.




Jmo
 
  • #338
There are no unaccounted for hairs or fibers or prints.
The DNA is artifact illegally misrepresented by Mary Lacy.
The handwriting is Patsy's clearly.

The smoking gun is the literature.
 
  • #339
There are no unaccounted for hairs or fibers or prints.
The DNA is artifact illegally misrepresented by Mary Lacy.
The handwriting is Patsy's clearly.

The smoking gun is the literature.
Prove it & I'm on board.
 
  • #340
There is simply far too much unsourced forensic evidence, and a total lack of evidence, motive, means, etc. implicating the Ramseys (nor any individual Ramsey), in the assault and/ormurder of JonBenét.

Evidence doesn't point in any single direction.
And I have no idea what you're talking about when you say lack of means implicating the Ramseys. Their house. Their child. Of anyone in this world the Ramseys had the best means (capability, accessibility) to get the murder done.

As for motive...you don't have to prove motive in court so it's basically window dressing. But for the sake of argument, Ramseys are still #1 for motive~the molestation. Either cover up for previous assault (s) or accidental death.
The intruder motive, based on the evidence known, appears to be a politically motivated kidnapping by a group who molested a little girl days before her death, successfully convinced her to keep her mouth shut, kidnapped her complete with a pineapple snack and no struggle then couldn't wait to get her out if the house before molesting her again. Then once they killed her, they didn't think to pick up the RN but wiped down the body. But no... it was all about the money :floorlaugh:
 

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