Why the DNA may NOT be important

  • #461
Unless the house was sterilized prior to that night (highly doubtful), the unidentified fibers, like the DNA, could have come from an unrelated source.

I remember a case where pubic hair and deer hair were found on the body of a rape/murder victim that were completely unrelated to the case. It happens.

Innocent transfer happens. But, so far no one has been able to establish that it happened in this case. And, the match between tDNA and non-tDNA found in incriminating locations on separate articles of clothing and the failure to trace this evidence to innocent sourced, despite great expense and effort, makes it seem unlikely that it happened in this case; add to that the unsourced fibers/hair also found in incriminating locations, the unidentified handwriting, the contradiction between note and body, etc, etc...
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AK
 
  • #462
Which brings us to another full circle, why were fibers found in some places and not others? There are no fibers to support entry to the house and given the theorized mode of entry, the theory is highly improbable.
They don’t look everywhere for fibers, that would be senseless. And, there are always fibers found in some places and not in others. This is normal.
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AK
 
  • #463
The lack of Famial DNA is an indication that they did not leave DNA on her. The DNA in her panties that is mixed with her blood is from what??

Really. You don't say. :what: I'm questioning the lack of the parents DNA considering PR and the intruder both undressed and redressed her. IMO, the DNA isn't from an intruder. Which I explained earlier. There could be an innocent explanation, or it could be from an intruder. Until we have a match I don't think it's definitive proof of an intruder. But that's just my opinion!

And that it matches the tdna right where someone would pull down her pants to assault her said:
Technically, the samples wouldn't be a match, they'd be consistent because there is an insufficient number of markers. That alone wouldn't hold up in a court room without additional evidence. I don't think it means nothing, I just question it's relevance to the case. There were 6 profiles of DNA found. So were there 6 intruders? Or were they innocent transfers? No, it's not the end. That's purely your opinion. That "match" wouldn't be an end in a court room. There's a whole new can of worms to tackle if the source is ever found.

That DNA is not from some mystery worker. That is from someone who was there.[/quote said:
No one has any knowledge of where the DNA came from. We all have our own opinions and theories. And just to note, Lacy exonerated the Ramsey's without even knowing about the other DNA profiles. That right there should be a red flag. To clear murder suspects without complete knowledge of test results seems incredibly unprofessional. Then again, she didn't want to pursue the Ramsey's medical records because she didn't want to risk her relationship with them. :facepalm:
 
  • #464
They don’t look everywhere for fibers, that would be senseless. And, there are always fibers found in some places and not in others. This is normal.
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AK

It's "senseless" to test for fibers at the theorized entry and exit points?
No.
 
  • #465
Innocent transfer happens. But, so far no one has been able to establish that it happened in this case. And, the match between tDNA and non-tDNA found in incriminating locations on separate articles of clothing and the failure to trace this evidence to innocent sourced, despite great expense and effort, makes it seem unlikely that it happened in this case; add to that the unsourced fibers/hair also found in incriminating locations, the unidentified handwriting, the contradiction between note and body, etc, etc...
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AK

Actually, neither assumption of innocent transfer, fiber and DNA, has been proven.
As of yet there is no failure to trace the DNA to an innocent source, either. We know people have been tested against the DNA but without a report to tell us the true viability of the DNA as an identification tool, there is no certainty any comparison is valuable.
 
  • #466
There’s nothing hinky about the DNA. That’s just silly.

And? I gave a reason why I think the DNA is hinky, basically that most forensic specialist commenting, but not necessarily hired by the CO DA, has either dismissed it as possible transfer (Lee) or said the professional equivalent of "meh". The touch DNA has only been seen and commented on by the CO DA and those she's hired.

If you haven’t seen any RDI try to say that the Ramsey fibers are incriminating, but that non-Ramsey fibres are meaningless, than you haven’t been paying attention.
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AK

You didn't say "any". You said "many" and implied "most".
I dispute that.
 
  • #467
Well, we could say that anything could be from anything but that doesn’t really tell us very much. If the DNA could be from secondary/innocent transfer than the DNA could be from primary/guilty transfer, and, that’s how that works; so I’m not overly impressed with “could be.”
.

As far as trace evidence goes DNA is essentially unique; fibers are not. That’s not an insignificant difference. This means that is impossible to say that any fiber was a Ramsey fiber. Fibers are only ever “consistent with.” DNA trumps fibers in almost every way imaginable; it is the gold standard. DNA is not perfect, and things can go wrong, but each and every issue regarding the utility and reliability of DNA evidence applies as well to fiber evidence.

It is intellectually dishonest to say, – I’m NOT directing this to anyone in particular – the DNA evidence is too shakey for me, but I have no problem accepting these fibers as Ramsey fibers. It is improper to excuse unsourced fibers found in incriminating locations without excusing Ramsey fibers found in the same locations.

Sure, fibers are everywhere and easily transfer but what’s true for the unsourced fibers is true for the Ramsey fibers, and one can’t excuse unsourced fibers as innocent transfer without also excusing Ramsey fibers. In the Ramsey home Ramsey fibers are everywhere. Everywhere the child goes – Ramsey fibers. There are more Ramsey fibers in the Ramsey home than there are “Ramsey fibers” in this post! If any fibers are likely to innocently transfer they’re going to be Ramsey fibers. The only way to excuse the unsourced fibers while using the Ramsey fibers is if one uses theory to determine the evidence. We shouldn’t do that.
.

I’d like to try and answer some of your questions regarding tDNA transfer. I’ll come back to that later.
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AK

I'm not sure what you're referring to for the "could be" paragraph. I know the DNA could be evidence of criminal intent or of innocent transfer just like PR and Burke's tdna on the nightgown could be malicious or innocent.

In other cases, that's absolutely correct. But 6 profiles were found and as I told Scarlett, the DNA "match" on JB's clothes isn't a match because of the marker count. It can be said to be "consistent with" which the fibers found were to PR's clothing the night of the murder as well.

That was my point exactly. I'm not excusing the unsourced fibers, I was simply stating that I don't believe it's fair to excuse the Ramsey's fibers as innocent transfer, yet use the unsourced fibers as evidence of an intruder and I explained why. I said I don't hold either , as in the DNA OR the fibers, to much because we don't know how either ended up where they did and both can easily be manipulated to fit into a certain theory. The fibers were consistent with Patsy's clothes and the DNA was also consistent. Neither is a match and neither proves who killed JB that night.

Again, I said if the Ramsey's fibers were innocently transferred then the unsourced fibers could have been as well. I'm not weighing one as more important than the other, just stating that we shouldn't weigh one side of the fiber evidence better than the other. I explained why I felt the Ramsey's fibers were important already. Yes, they very well could be innocent transfer and I am well aware of it. The unsourced fibers could very well be from an intruder, or from the party, the basement, etc... The argument goes both ways as I previously stated. Again, I don't hold the DNA or fiber evidence to my theory because again we don't know how any of it made it's way to the room. All we have is speculation.
 
  • #468
It's "senseless" to test for fibers at the theorized entry and exit points?
No.
You're right, but that wasn't the point I took from's AK's post.

AK wrote:
"They don’t look everywhere for fibers, that would be senseless. And, there are always fibers found in some places and not in others. This is normal."

Back to your inquiry:

Which brings us to another full circle, why were fibers found in some places and not others? There are no fibers to support entry to the house and given the theorized mode of entry, the theory is highly improbable.
LE certainly collected fiber evidence from the immediate crime scene (aka, the WC); the body, the victim's clothing, the tape, etc.

Are you aware of any failed attempts, by LEOs on the scene, to collect trace evidence, including fibers, from potential entry/exit locations?
 
  • #469
Ramsey fibers are like any other fibers, except Ramsey fibers are everywhere. You can’t discount non-Ramsey fibers if you’re going to include Ramsey fibers – that’s intellectually dishonest and theory-driven.
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AK

Respectfully, I disagree that anyone here is discounting non-Ramsey fibers. All of the CS fibers in the home came from items that, at one point in time, were in the home [or were transferred but that is for a later discussion].

Therefore, we cannot claim the unsourced fibers are non-Ramsey. We can only note that there are pink, lavender and brown unsourced fibers.

Investigators queried PR about owning pink and lavender gardening gloves. It is not impossible that PR purchased the cotton gloves when she purchased the duct tape and nylon cord in December.

LE also queried Patsy about JR owning brown gloves. While an investigator's question is not proof, we learn by their questions what their theories may be.

It piqued my interest to learn that LE ended their questioning of PR in the ST interview before their time was up. There were loads of remaining questions to be answered by PR that were not followed up on or never approached.

Even when James Kolar entered, he spent six months before forming an opinion, based on his investigation, that JR and PR were complicit in the crime against their daughter, JonBenét.

Later, Kolar sent ML a letter informing her of his research into SPB, etc. and felt a closer look at BRs psyche records was warranted. MLs response was to attend Patsy's funeral in Georgia.
 
  • #470
A few questions posed:
Was Jonbenet’s tDNA on the leggings? No one associated with the case has said that it was, so, as far as we know: NO.

Where was Patsy’s tDNA? Not on the leggings; not on the ligatures.

Why wasn’t Mr Ramsey’s tDNA on the leggings? Because DNA does not transfer as readily as some seem to believe.

Were all of the Ramseys “low-shedders?” No one knows. Transfer is never certain, and shedder status is only one of several factors to consider.
Isn’t it intuitively obvious that something is wrong here? We know that three people’s tDNA should be on the leggings. Even if we discount Patsy because we only have her word that she put the leggings on her, John was seen holding/carrying JonBenet with his hands around her waist. And JonBenet was actually wearing them when she was found dead! While individuals may shed more or less skin cells than someone else, we all shed. I’ve seen estimates that we shed anywhere from 1 million to 500 million individual skin cells (keratinocytes) per day. Of course, that’s over our entire body. Even taking into account the size of the surface area of a person’s hands and divide the lowest estimate by 24 hours, we’re still looking at tens of thousands of skin cells that should be constantly sloughing off. It’s inconceivable that anyone who put the leggings on her, who held her at the waistband, or especially who wore the leggings would not have deposited enough skin cells that they could be found in effective testing -- even if any single one (not to mention all) of those individuals were “low-shedders”. I can’t account for why this is, but I know something is not right about it.

Something else occurred to me while writing this. If you think about how many skin cells are shed off onto one’s bed sheets while sleeping at night, and then consider that JonBenet would be lying/moving around on those sheets with dead skin cells everywhere, why would the clothes she wore in bed not have had thousands of her own tDNA skin cells all over them? Might this be an indication that the leggings were never even worn to bed? Did investigators consider that this might be proof that the leggings were put on her only after death?


Were there profiles disregarded because of expectations? This would be very unlikely. We know where Ramsey DNA was found (nightgown), where Ramsey fibers were found, Ramsey prints, etc. None of these were disregarded.
I agree, AK, that this is probably unlikely. But it’s just one of the possibilities I mentioned in trying to account for why no Ramsey tDNA when we know it should be present. But that’s the point: It SHOULD be present.


“The only reason the DNA from someone else was found there was because it happened to be within the area of the blood spots in the crotch.” Otg

Nonsense, the DNA was commingled in the victim’s blood, not “within the area.”
I think maybe you don’t understand something in the process. The two blood spots in the crotch were processed for DNA. So everything in the area that was swabbed to extract DNA was mixed together (“commingled” is actually a misnomer, but I know it has been used) for testing. In that sample that was tested, two different DNA profiles (JonBenet’s and the unknown individual) were generated. The time of deposit of JonBenet’s blood can be surmised by circumstances. But the time of deposit of the unknown DNA is not known. This leaves open the very possible explanation (Dr. Lee's -- not mine) that it was deposited by a manufacturing worker’s body fluids (saliva/sputum from a sneeze?). That unknown person’s DNA might very well be all over the panties, but they weren’t tested in all areas (as I understand it). The only areas tested were where the two bloodspots were seen, which therefore (coincidentally) had some of that DNA present within the same area (distal).


Did they test the panty waistband? Probably. Several areas were tested, and in the Smit deposition it is said that traces were found – none sufficient to identify any markers, but indications of some sort.
I’m not clear on whether or not the waistband of the Bloomies was tested for tDNA (as I questioned in another post). Cynic stated on FFJ, “The TDNA found on the leggings/long johns matched the waistband of the Bloomies. (All partial DNA profiles.)” (Forums For Justice - View Single Post - DNA revisited in light of James Kolar’s book) But I don’t know his source for that posit, or if it is (or is not) referring to tDNA on the Bloomies waistband. If we assume that it is correct (and that it is tDNA), that reinforces the possibility that the tDNA may have been transferred to the waistband of the leggings (yes, even on the outside). If it is not correct, too many questions arise to even attempt to enumerate.


Letters to the Editor
From the week of 12/07/2006
Great, funny article. I e-mailed 48 Hours because I had problems with statements like "the evidence shows blah-blah" without the show telling us what that evidence might be. The producer and Erin Moriarty both wrote me back. The most interesting thing the producer said was that while traces of DNA have been found in unopened packages of underwear, the foreign DNA in JonBenét's was ten to twelve times that amount. That was news to me.
Carol Martin
Walnut Creek, California
http://www.westword.com/2006-12-07/news/letters-to-the-editor/
Okay, if the writings and reports of investigators actually involved in the case can be questioned for veracity, I certainly am going to question your source here of someone who wrote a “letter to the editor” claiming to have as her source the word of a reporter/producer of a TV show about what they were told by someone else. Even assuming it to be correct, if you look at the miniscule number of cells we are talking about the “ten to twelve times that amount” is not that significant. As quoted earlier, “In the research setting, PCR allows investigators to genetically amplify the DNA contained in as little as five to ten cells into analyzable quantities.” So 50 to 120 cells is not that large an amount to be talking about in the context of trace evidence. If the extraction of tDNA skin cells picks up as few as five, or as many as 120, it is not that significant in the determination of how many were actually deposited by their owner. It is only the number that was extracted by the technician for a particular sample. It would be an incorrect assumption (IMO) to assume the number of cells extracted in a particular sample on a selected area is an indication of how many were actually deposited in total on the entire garment.


While traces of DNA have been found on new clothing, it isn’t found in amounts large enough to produce a profile. Could DNA transfer from the waistband of the panties to the exterior of the leggings? Maybe, but wouldn’t it be more likely to transfer to the inside of the leggings? This tDNA was found on the outside.
Was the inside of the leggings tested, or did they only test the outside? Did they test anywhere else on the leggings, or just assume that's the most likely place to find something and therefore it wasn't worth spending the extra money to check somewhere else? And again, why the hell didn't they find Patsy's, John's, or JonBenet's tDNA on the outside of the waistband?


On another subject discussed elsewhere, I’ll add this: Linda7NJ posted links once before that had information on how common secondary and tertiary transfer of DNA is. From one of those sources (or maybe somewhere else I read) there is this quote:
“...secondary and tertiary transfer of trace materials as an improbable event---is profoundly naïve, …and just plain FALSE. Reports and a wealth of published research have established inadvertent DNA transfer events as the rule, not the exception
In 1996, thanks in part to O.J., we had all become aware of DNA evidence -- as were the police. But "touch"-DNA analysis had not yet been developed. How many times have you seen in a movie or on TV an investigator come across some article of clothing at a crime scene and reach into his pocket to pull out his writing pen to pick it up and place into a plastic evidence bag? When he did, he just transferred his own tDNA (and the tDNA of anyone else who might have borrowed his pen) to the evidence. Sure... his genetic profile would probably be eliminated from consideration if it is generated from the evidence, but the point here is that cops just weren’t aware back then of just how sensitive DNA testing would become only a decade later. In 1996, evidence just wasn’t handled with the same care that we now know has to be given to evidence. Imagine that even in the autopsy room, with gloved hands the coroner and his technicians would be removing, handling, and examining different articles of clothing using the same pair of gloves worn during the entire process. All this adding to the possible sources of secondary and tertiary transfer of trace materials.
 
  • #471
otg, wasn't this (Jane Mixer) the first case in American history to use "tDNA" as evidence to convict a person of murder?
I don't think so. I don't follow every other case, and I don't really keep up with everything about DNA (not my favorite subject at all). But in the Mixer case, the person convicted (Leiterman) had several things going against him. First of all, he was a 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 (IMHO). When his DNA showed up from the stocking (believed to be his sweat), they searched his house and found "inappropriate" pictures taken by him (he plead guilty to these charges) of an underage foreign exchange student who had stayed with his family. She was believed to be either asleep or drugged (he was a former pharmacist until he lost his license, and he had drugs in his house capable of causing unconsciousness) at the time she was photographed, and she claimed no knowledge of the event. Mixer was shot twice with a 22-calibre firearm and Leiterman owned one. His attorney didn't do a very good job of contesting the DNA evidence, and the jury didn't take long to find him guilty.

On the "touch"-DNA... I don't know of any murder case yet (with my limited knowledge) that was actually decided on, or based solely on, tDNA. That might be a good challenge for anyone else to see if one can be found. It may have been a factor in some trials, but I don't think a good lawyer wouldn't be able to challenge the reliability. And with no other evidence to back it up, I don't think it would be enough to prove guilt.

As a side note, see chlban's post here about potential jury duty:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Why the DNA may NOT be important
 
  • #472
I’ll copy a few of the links at the end of this post that I’ve used over the years and that form the basis of much of what I am about to say. I’m not incredibly well organized when it comes to links (I’m better with quotes) so these will be a little bit random. Some of the links may not work, most of them are old – I’ve been at this for years.  Some of the links to studies may be to an abstract only (in some of these cases I paid for and downloaded the studies).
.

One of the several studies that I’ve read reported on DNA recovered from bed sheets. As I remember it, 5 volunteers slept for 8+ hours on a new sheet. They used their “usual” blanket and wore whatever they normally wore to bed. Sheets were sampled in 3 areas and only one volunteer’s DNA was found in all 3 areas. No DNA was found from 2 of the volunteers, and there was secondary transfer found from 2 or 3 of the volunteer’s regular bed partner.

I’ve seen another study where no secondary transfer occurred after handshakes of up to a minute. Others have shown that Person A can transfer Person B’s DNA without transferring their own (Dr Krane makes mention of this). Allan Jameison of the Forensic Institute is the source for my oft-stated claim that “primary transfer is always the likeliest and most obvious mechanism of transfer.” Various studies and scientific articles seem to support this claim.

Primary transfer is better understood than Secondary transfer. Secondary transfer often results in mixed profiles with Person A (primary) being the major contributor. Secondary transfer often results in partial profiles. In Secondary Transfer Person A usually transfers Persons B’s DNA to the object that they contact immediately subsequent to their contact with Person B.

Transfer is more likely to occur if the contact is aggressive and/or sustained. Nervous/sweaty persons are more likely to shed than others. A person’s shedder status can be but is not always affected by hand washing and some people just naturally shed more/less than others.

There’s a lot to consider here, but the CODIS sample is not tDNA, and the tDNA matches the CODIS sample. One reinforces the significance and reliability of the other.
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AK
 
  • #473
The tape was tested for DNA but none was found. The tape was on the victim’s mouth, Mr Ramsey touched it and Fleet White touched it. Mr Ramsey touched and wrestled with the wrist ligatures, but his DNA was not found. It is what it is. Sometimes trace evidence is found and sometimes it isn’t.

I think that one of the first posts I ever made on this forum was to address the absence of Mrs Ramsey’s DNA on the leggings. Some people say that it should be there, but those people are wrong – studies bear this out. If people want to argue that Mrs Ramsey’s DNA should be there are essentially arguing that if a person touched the leggings than their DNA should be found on the leggings and this includes the killer’s DNA – we know he touched the leggings - but somehow these people can’t accept that the DNA found could be the killer’s!!!! Blinded by theory.

Here’s an excert from my first WS post on the absence of Mrs Ramsey’s DNA:
Consider (as SPECULATION ONLY!): Mrs Ramsey removes Jonbenet’s pants. She uses some caution and care so as to not wake the child and thus her contact is “minimal.” Maybe she transfers some of her own DNA, but these pants are, understandably, never tested. Maybe the amount of DNA transferred to the pants diminishes the amount available for transfer to the leggings. Maybe there is no transfer at all.

Now, Mrs Ramsey puts the leggings on Jonbenet, still using caution and care; her contact is “minimal.” No transfer occurs.

Later, DNA-man, maybe with gloves on (sweaty hands?), and in a presumably excitable state, and with NO caution or care, pulls down the victim’s leggings. With the panties/leggings down the killer removes his gloves (ostensibly to achieve skin to skin contact) and he does not put them back on until after he has “replaced” the victim’s clothes.

Possibly, he removes and/or “destroys” DNA transferred by Mrs Ramsey – if any - when he pulls the leggings down, and transfers his own when pulling them back up.
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AK
 
  • #474
Sorry, forgot to add links. Here’s a few:

tDNA Transfer:
http://www.bioforensics.com/conference07/Transfer/SecondaryTransferStudy.pdf
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/assets/modified_sec_transfer_dna_poster_tcm44-12738.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/otazu5u
http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-...transfer_theory_in_forensic_dna_analysis.html
http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2013/04/touch-dna-crime-scene-crime-laboratory

tDNA contamination: http://tinyurl.com/mc5ekre

fingernail 5 year study: http://tinyurl.com/jwe2663
fingernails: http://www.springerlink.com/content/t531u186m1601696/
forensic trace: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3012025/

VIDEO
Q-and-A: Jon Benet Ramsey DNA Test; Howard Safir, BODE CEO Q-and-A: Jon Benet Ramsey DNA Test - YouTube
Harry Smith speaks with forensic scientist Angela Williamson 'Touch DNA' Clears Ramseys - YouTube

Mixture Interpretation: http://tinyurl.com/l3zvwqf

Assessing Probative Value: http://tinyurl.com/kp56g73

DNA confusion (chimerism, etc): http://tinyurl.com/kub7299
Chimerism; journal of law, science and tech: http://tinyurl.com/psk9vlc

Race, Genes and Justice: http://tinyurl.com/kztp2c8

Best Arizona database debunk: http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/science_law/2008/week33/index.html
http://dna-view.com/ArizonaMatch.htm

Partial Profiles: “Foreman and Evett (2001) note that partial profiles occur in approximately 20 % of cases seen by the Forensic Science Service” http://tinyurl.com/kmvdhlm

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/194197.pdf
...

AK
 
  • #475
Isn’t it intuitively obvious that something is wrong here? We know that three people’s tDNA should be on the leggings. Even if we discount Patsy because we only have her word that she put the leggings on her, John was seen holding/carrying JonBenet with his hands around her waist. And JonBenet was actually wearing them when she was found dead! While individuals may shed more or less skin cells than someone else, we all shed. I’ve seen estimates that we shed anywhere from 1 million to 500 million individual skin cells (keratinocytes) per day. Of course, that’s over our entire body. Even taking into account the size of the surface area of a person’s hands and divide the lowest estimate by 24 hours, we’re still looking at tens of thousands of skin cells that should be constantly sloughing off. It’s inconceivable that anyone who put the leggings on her, who held her at the waistband, or especially who wore the leggings would not have deposited enough skin cells that they could be found in effective testing -- even if any single one (not to mention all) of those individuals were “low-shedders”. I can’t account for why this is, but I know something is not right about it.

Something else occurred to me while writing this. If you think about how many skin cells are shed off onto one’s bed sheets while sleeping at night, and then consider that JonBenet would be lying/moving around on those sheets with dead skin cells everywhere, why would the clothes she wore in bed not have had thousands of her own tDNA skin cells all over them? Might this be an indication that the leggings were never even worn to bed? Did investigators consider that this might be proof that the leggings were put on her only after death?


I agree, AK, that this is probably unlikely. But it’s just one of the possibilities I mentioned in trying to account for why no Ramsey tDNA when we know it should be present. But that’s the point: It SHOULD be present.


I think maybe you don’t understand something in the process. The two blood spots in the crotch were processed for DNA. So everything in the area that was swabbed to extract DNA was mixed together (“commingled” is actually a misnomer, but I know it has been used) for testing. In that sample that was tested, two different DNA profiles (JonBenet’s and the unknown individual) were generated. The time of deposit of JonBenet’s blood can be surmised by circumstances. But the time of deposit of the unknown DNA is not known. This leaves open the very possible explanation (Dr. Lee's -- not mine) that it was deposited by a manufacturing worker’s body fluids (saliva/sputum from a sneeze?). That unknown person’s DNA might very well be all over the panties, but they weren’t tested in all areas (as I understand it). The only areas tested were where the two bloodspots were seen, which therefore (coincidentally) had some of that DNA present within the same area (distal).


I’m not clear on whether or not the waistband of the Bloomies was tested for tDNA (as I questioned in another post). Cynic stated on FFJ, “The TDNA found on the leggings/long johns matched the waistband of the Bloomies. (All partial DNA profiles.)” (Forums For Justice - View Single Post - DNA revisited in light of James Kolar’s book) But I don’t know his source for that posit, or if it is (or is not) referring to tDNA on the Bloomies waistband. If we assume that it is correct (and that it is tDNA), that reinforces the possibility that the tDNA may have been transferred to the waistband of the leggings (yes, even on the outside). If it is not correct, too many questions arise to even attempt to enumerate.


Okay, if the writings and reports of investigators actually involved in the case can be questioned for veracity, I certainly am going to question your source here of someone who wrote a “letter to the editor” claiming to have as her source the word of a reporter/producer of a TV show about what they were told by someone else. Even assuming it to be correct, if you look at the miniscule number of cells we are talking about the “ten to twelve times that amount” is not that significant. As quoted earlier, “In the research setting, PCR allows investigators to genetically amplify the DNA contained in as little as five to ten cells into analyzable quantities.” So 50 to 120 cells is not that large an amount to be talking about in the context of trace evidence. If the extraction of tDNA skin cells picks up as few as five, or as many as 120, it is not that significant in the determination of how many were actually deposited by their owner. It is only the number that was extracted by the technician for a particular sample. It would be an incorrect assumption (IMO) to assume the number of cells extracted in a particular sample on a selected area is an indication of how many were actually deposited in total on the entire garment.


Was the inside of the leggings tested, or did they only test the outside? Did they test anywhere else on the leggings, or just assume that's the most likely place to find something and therefore it wasn't worth spending the extra money to check somewhere else? And again, why the hell didn't they find Patsy's, John's, or JonBenet's tDNA on the outside of the waistband?


On another subject discussed elsewhere, I’ll add this: Linda7NJ posted links once before that had information on how common secondary and tertiary transfer of DNA is. From one of those sources (or maybe somewhere else I read) there is this quote:
“...secondary and tertiary transfer of trace materials as an improbable event---is profoundly naïve, …and just plain FALSE. Reports and a wealth of published research have established inadvertent DNA transfer events as the rule, not the exception
In 1996, thanks in part to O.J., we had all become aware of DNA evidence -- as were the police. But "touch"-DNA analysis had not yet been developed. How many times have you seen in a movie or on TV an investigator come across some article of clothing at a crime scene and reach into his pocket to pull out his writing pen to pick it up and place into a plastic evidence bag? When he did, he just transferred his own tDNA (and the tDNA of anyone else who might have borrowed his pen) to the evidence. Sure... his genetic profile would probably be eliminated from consideration if it is generated from the evidence, but the point here is that cops just weren’t aware back then of just how sensitive DNA testing would become only a decade later. In 1996, evidence just wasn’t handled with the same care that we now know has to be given to evidence. Imagine that even in the autopsy room, with gloved hands the coroner and his technicians would be removing, handling, and examining different articles of clothing using the same pair of gloves worn during the entire process. All this adding to the possible sources of secondary and tertiary transfer of trace materials.
A few random comments:

There is nothing “intuitively obvious” wrong here – we can say that DNA from three people COULD be found, but it is not correct to say that DNA from three people SHOULD be found. It is simply incorrect to say that tDNA SHOULD be somewhere, and this is supported by various studies and investigations.

Less DNA than you might imagine is shed on bed sheets, and some of this is because many people – Jonbenet for example – don’t go to bed naked.
There just isn’t a whole lot to be made of what isn’t there. We should be concentrating on what is there.

It has been widely reported, without dissension, that the male DNA was commingled with the victim’s blood. There is nothing about the “process” that I am not understanding.

I’ll have to dig through Kolar when I have time, but iirc he confirms that the CODIS sample was ten to twelve times the amount found on new panties. Yes, this is significant. It’s the difference between a meaningful sample and a meaningless sample. A post by Cynic is not a source one should use as reference. Good grief.

DNA on the inside crotch of the panties, commingled in blood, didn’t magically transfer to the outside hip area of the leggings. IS something like this possible? Maybe. Is it probable. Nope.

They didn’t assume that the outside hip area was the likeliest place to find tDNA, it was a reasoned conclusion.

Yada, yada, yada, in this case, contamination is the unlikeliest of explanation for the tDNA and for the CODIS sample. If you think that secondary transfer could have happened so easily than you shouldn’t have any trouble accepting that the tDNA could even more easily have been the result of primary transfer. Follow the evidence, not the theory.
...

AK
 
  • #476
I don't think so. I don't follow every other case, and I don't really keep up with everything about DNA (not my favorite subject at all). But in the Mixer case, the person convicted (Leiterman) had several things going against him. First of all, he was a 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 (IMHO). When his DNA showed up from the stocking (believed to be his sweat), they searched his house and found "inappropriate" pictures taken by him (he plead guilty to these charges) of an underage foreign exchange student who had stayed with his family. She was believed to be either asleep or drugged (he was a former pharmacist until he lost his license, and he had drugs in his house capable of causing unconsciousness) at the time she was photographed, and she claimed no knowledge of the event. Mixer was shot twice with a 22-calibre firearm and Leiterman owned one. His attorney didn't do a very good job of contesting the DNA evidence, and the jury didn't take long to find him guilty.

On the "touch"-DNA... I don't know of any murder case yet (with my limited knowledge) that was actually decided on, or based solely on, tDNA. That might be a good challenge for anyone else to see if one can be found. It may have been a factor in some trials, but I don't think a good lawyer wouldn't be able to challenge the reliability. And with no other evidence to back it up, I don't think it would be enough to prove guilt.

As a side note, see chlban's post here about potential jury duty:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Why the DNA may NOT be important
The Masters exoneration was largely based on tDNA found on the waistband of the victim’s panties as well as on one other article of clothing (I forget most of the details). Three samples of matching tDNA were found, iirc.
You can find stories where PD’s claim a respectable number of crimes – burglaries, for instyance – are solved through tDNA findings.

LCN, which is even more controversial then tDNA has been used in the courts. Krane makes some mention of this on tricia’s radioblog, except he neglects to mention that LCN was eventually confirmed by the courts (I may have included the link to this in a post above).
.

It’s okay, and I think important that cases not be decided on tDNA alone.
...

AK
 
  • #477
From "The Happenings of December 26" thread. Post # 1041

There are six unique and unidentified genetic profiles – five male profiles and one female profile.
DNA testing involving fingernail scrapings from both hands revealed JonBenet’s genetic profile on both sides.
In addition to JonBenet’s profile, scrapings from the left fingernails revealed unidentified male #1
The right fingernails indicated that two further unique profiles were present, unidentified male #2, and a unique unknown female profile. (JonBenet could not be excluded as a contributor)
The waistband, seams, and crotch of panties (Distal Stain 007-2) CODIS all matched and produced the profile that has been entered into the CODIS database, unidentified male #3 (Strength/weakness of profile: 10 markers)

The above profiles were determined through typical STR DNA testing.
Touch DNA (TDNA) testing, all presumably done at the Bode facility revealed one matching profile and a further two unique profiles, both male:
TDNA on the waistband of leggings matching DS 007-2 male #3
TDNA on the wrist bindings – male #4 (Strength/weakness of profile: 6 markers)
TDNA on the “garrote” – male #5 (Strength/weakness of profile: 7 markers)

(Also, TDNA on the pink Barbie nightgown found in the Wine Cellar with the body of JonBenét was identified as belonging to BR and PR.)


*******. SIX contributors. *******??????

Laberge indicated that it was his opinion that the male sample of DNA could have been deposited there by a perpetrator, or that there could have been some other explanation for its presence, totally unrelated to the crime. I would learn that many other scientists held the same opinion.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 305

The same theoretical principles of transfer thought to be involved in the DNA collected from beneath JonBenét’s nails could be applied to the transfer of genetic material from her underwear to the leggings. “Cloth to cloth” transfer could be responsible for this new evidence.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 427


snip
 
  • #478
Are you aware of any failed attempts, by LEOs on the scene, to collect trace evidence, including fibers, from potential entry/exit locations?

It doesn't matter if there has been 1 in 100 cases where that has happened, it doesn't pertain to this case.

Two points, the window was highlighted by Smit and, as I've said before, his testimony about the method of entry is extremely light on forensic support. He wouldn't be coy if something was found and if he expected to find debris from outside dragged through the window, he most certainly expected fiber and fingerprint evidence. Oh yeah...he mentioned glove prints in a desperate Hail Mary.

Also, JR highlighted the window almost immediately, the house was closed up, forensics could have waited a while and still got results.
This wasn't terribly time sensitive.
 
  • #479
It doesn't matter if there has been 1 in 100 cases where that has happened, it doesn't pertain to this case.

Two points, the window was highlighted by Smit and, as I've said before, his testimony about the method of entry is extremely light on forensic support. He wouldn't be coy if something was found and if he expected to find debris from outside dragged through the window, he most certainly expected fiber and fingerprint evidence. Oh yeah...he mentioned glove prints in a desperate Hail Mary.
"Hind sight is 20/20."

2 percent said:
Also, JR highlighted the window almost immediately, the house was closed up, forensics could have waited a while and still got results.
This wasn't terribly time sensitive.
I disagree.
 
  • #480

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