Why Was Jonbenet Wearing The Wrong Sized Panties When She Was Found?

[UKGuy]

Elimination does occur after death, as well.

That may or may not have been the case with that pair.

SleuthingSleuth,

Also the size-12's were not only urine stained, but were blood stained, with no corresponding smears on her genitalia.

This is very curious given the size of the size-12's relative to JonBenet's dimensions.

So the circumstantial evidence backs up the likelyhood that she was redressed upstairs, but wiped down, in the basement.

Its possible that someone other than Patsy killed JonBenet and Patsy took an active role in staging the wine-cellar crime-scene her fibers are linked directly to the crime-scene.

JonBenet may have been killed upstairs, with a staged sexual assault in her bedroom or JAR's with possible obscene posing being constructed, this was later converted to what everyone now considers to be an IDI bedtime abduction. Yet when discovered JonBenet was wearing day-clothes on her upper half and night-clothes on her lower half?

Regardless of who killed JonBenet IDI or RDI someone spent a lot of time cleaning up JonBenet, redressing her, removing forensic evidence, adding fake evidence, eventually relocating her corpse to the wine-cellar, you all go figure that!



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[BBB167893]

"Regardless of who killed JonBenet IDI or RDI someone spent a lot of time cleaning up JonBenet, redressing her, removing forensic evidence, adding fake evidence, eventually relocating her corpse to the wine-cellar, you all go figure that!"

Yes, if it was an intruder, it wouldn't need staging to look like an intruder.

 

[JBean]

"Regardless of who killed JonBenet IDI or RDI someone spent a lot of time cleaning up JonBenet, redressing her, removing forensic evidence, adding fake evidence, eventually relocating her corpse to the wine-cellar, you all go figure that!"

Yes, if it was an intruder, it wouldn't need staging to look like an intruder.

IMO,the ransom note was to give the perp more time to get out of dodge. Delayed the time until the body was found. Only reason it may have been written, IMO. Long note, lots to look at ,time to digest it. Maybe he was hoping they wouldn't call the police for a long time.The more time that past without finding the body, the colder the trail would become.Actually quite clever.
Much like Alejandro Avila and Samantha Runnion, I would guess that the intruder staged this just the way he wanted it to look. Has nothing to do with staging it to look like an intruder, but just visual pleasure IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

Every 'normal' female (non-homecoming queen, non-cheerleader, non-fashion show participant, non-beauty pagent contestant) gaged profucely every time they heard one of these 'fake' responses... (Personally, I was always one of the blue jean-tee shirt clad females, desperately trying not to hurl. ) By choice, Patsy was one of those 'people pleasing' types, as is evident by her pagent life, by her grooming her child for this type of life and by the way she presented herself on a daily basis dressed to the hilt and always with full facial make-up, perfected to a tee. ( Remember, it was also reported she had full make-up and her party clothes from the night before on,but had not showered, even on the day of the discovery of a ransom note and her daughter's body. The 'image' mattered.) Given that she performed for the public on a daily basis, how do you think she handled answering indepth questioning about her families and her REAL life?

angelwngs,

However you wish to characterise Patsy, either in terms of protecting her family, self preservation or self-promotion other people may view all the image polishing as an indication of duplicity!

Any lawyer will tell you that using someones character as evidence that they committed a particular crime is fallacious, personally it is the current forensic evidence that guides me, not any ad hominem moves against any one Ramsey.


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[BBB167893]

I think the FBI knows staging when they see it.

 

[angelwngs]

angelwngs,

However you wish to characterise Patsy, either in terms of protecting her family, self preservation or self-promotion other people may view all the image polishing as an indication of duplicity!

Any lawyer will tell you that using someones character as evidence that they committed a particular crime is fallacious, personally it is the current forensic evidence that guides me, not any ad hominem moves against any one Ramsey.


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I could not agree with you more. Did you read my entire, long..........most likely boring to you....post? My point was: Why do we (WS'ers, LE, Media, Talking Heads, etc.) continue to use Patsy's answers to questions as if they are authentic fact? Her responses are virtually worthless in the conclusion of the guilt of any suspect, in my humble opinion so why are they continued to be debated as if they are indeed 'authentic fact' here and elsewhere?

 

[InnocentBystander]

They were for Burke.

The whole family "played" together.

 

[UKGuy]

I could not agree with you more. Did you read my entire, long..........most likely boring to you....post? My point was: Why do we (WS'ers, LE, Media, Talking Heads, etc.) continue to use Patsy's answers to questions as if they are authentic fact? Her responses are virtually worthless in the conclusion of the guilt of any suspect, in my humble opinion so why are they continued to be debated as if they are indeed 'authentic fact' here and elsewhere?

angelwngs,

I would guess because there may be a divide in terms of who people suspect was the perpetrator, and what outwardly indications there might be of this.

I would guess the majority of WS'ers may be female and some do not believe that the behaviour of Patsy, following JonBenet's death, reflected that of an innocent person.

You also have the opposite camp that believe no mother would ever garrote or sexually assault her own daughter therefore she is innocent by default.

So one camp say she is damned by her statements and behaviour or lack of, and the other suggest the maternal instinct is a get out of jail card.

JMO.

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[Chrishope]

IMO,the ransom note was to give the perp more time to get out of dodge. Delayed the time until the body was found. Only reason it may have been written, IMO. Long note, lots to look at ,time to digest it. Maybe he was hoping they wouldn't call the police for a long time.The more time that past without finding the body, the colder the trail would become.Actually quite clever.
Much like Alejandro Avila and Samantha Runnion, I would guess that the intruder staged this just the way he wanted it to look. Has nothing to do with staging it to look like an intruder, but just visual pleasure IMO.

Respectfully, that doesn't make sense, imo. The body was in the basement. (Let us assume, for now, it wasn't hidden in a freezer or in a suitcase and later removed and placed in the wine cellar for "discovery") Most people I talk to say they'd do a complete search of their house, attic to cellar, if they found a ransom note and their child seemed to be missing. We have to allow that different people react differently, but why would an intruder assume the family wouldn't go looking through the house and discover the body within, say, 10 minutes?

I don't think the note was likely to buy much time at all. The only thing that bought time is that the Ramseys didn't search the entire house, and later, when they and the police did, nobody made a very good job of it.

 

[JBean]

Respectfully, that doesn't make sense, imo. The body was in the basement. (Let us assume, for now, it wasn't hidden in a freezer or in a suitcase and later removed and placed in the wine cellar for "discovery") Most people I talk to say they'd do a complete search of their house, attic to cellar, if they found a ransom note and their child seemed to be missing. We have to allow that different people react differently, but why would an intruder assume the family wouldn't go looking through the house and discover the body within, say, 10 minutes?

I don't think the note was likely to buy much time at all. The only thing that bought time is that the Ramseys didn't search the entire house, and later, when they and the police did, nobody made a very good job of it.

But that is exactly what happened.The police didn't even find her. they must have looked half heartedly.I think the police did a cursory search because they didn't think they would find her. So in this case we had plenty of people reacting just as I suspected. How many times had they already looked before she was found?

 

[UKGuy]

But it did didn't it?The police didn't even find her. they must have looked half heartedly.I think the police did a cursory search because they didn't think they would find her. So in this case we had plenty of people reacting just as I suspected. How many times had they already looked before she was found?

JBean,

Yes it would buy time, time to reflect and consider the official responses, time to alter any little details that needed adjusted.

Time to call in your own investigators and lock people into their statements, time to call your pilot, so you could gain more time by moving the jurisdiction interstate.

So the RN worked in that sense.


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[Nuisanceposter]

Of course they didn't think they'd find her - they thought she had been kidnapped. They made a cursory search of the house calling out for her and looking for a point of entry. They did not realize they needed to examine every nook and cranny in search of a body. When Officer French saw the door latched, he figured she wouldn't be in there because it was latched - from the outside. I'm sure he's kicked himself repeatedly since then for not opening that door.

And then we have Fleet White, who did open that door, calling for JB, and did not see her, but again, he was looking for a live child and not a dead body. Perhaps he didn't see her because he didn't turn on the light - or maybe he didn't see her because she wasn't there yet.

No one really knows what John Ramsey was doing in the basement around 10 am that morning, other than what he claims...that he found an open window, shut it, and then said nothing to anyone about for four months - and that doesn't sound quite right, either, does it? Why in god's name would you go looking for a pojnt of entry, find it, close it, and then say nothing to the detective upstairs? And why didn't Officers French and Veitch see it when they were in the basement, searching for a point of entry?

 

[JBean]

JBean,

Yes it would buy time, time to reflect and consider the official responses, time to alter any little details that needed adjusted.

Time to call in your own investigators and lock people into their statements, time to call your pilot, so you could gain more time by moving the jurisdiction interstate.

So the RN worked in that sense.


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I think it worked better for the intruder.How many hours went by before she was found? I think he was foiled a bit when the R's called the police in right away. The perp possibly had hoped they would wait a good long time before contacting LE.Perp could get a long way away by that time and those are lost minutes in a murder investigation. I do believe the RN is one the biggest pieces of evidence in this case that points away from the Ramseys.IF the Ramseys wrote the note, I believe it would have been short, sweet and to the point. This note was the work of a lunatic.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

I think it worked better for the intruder.How many hours went by before she was found? I think he was foiled a bit when the R's called the police in right away. The perp possibly had hoped they would wait a good long time before contacting LE.Perp could get a long way away by that time and those are lost minutes in a murder investigation. I do believe the RN is one the biggest pieces if evidence in this case that points away from the Ramseys.IF the Ramseys wrote the note, I believe it would have been short, sweet and to the point. This note was the work of a lunatic.

Why would an intruder start out saying "Mr Ramsey"...and then later in the letter start saying "John" like they know him?

Also, why wouldn't the intruder make a short and sweet note, instead of an essay? Taking the risk of sitting in the house and writing the note (after practicing some)...just to gain the possibility of having people think they're dealing with a kidnapping for a few hours, if even that.

I personally think the ransom note was written by someone who didn't know how most RN's tend to be.
In terms of a Ramsey writing it...I think the idea behind it was to make the police suspect someone the Ramseys' knew, or someone from John's job...and veer attention away from the Ramsey family themselves.

 

[Chrishope]

I think it worked better for the intruder.How many hours went by before she was found? I think he was foiled a bit when the R's called the police in right away. The perp possibly had hoped they would wait a good long time before contacting LE.Perp could get a long way away by that time and those are lost minutes in a murder investigation. I do believe the RN is one the biggest pieces of evidence in this case that points away from the Ramseys.IF the Ramseys wrote the note, I believe it would have been short, sweet and to the point. This note was the work of a lunatic.

But it didn't work for the intruder. The only thing that prevented JBR from being found was that the Ramseys didn't do a thorough search of the house -which I think most people would do- and the police did a crap job of searching. If I were an intruder/killer I'd assume the family would search top to bottom. I'd assume the police would too. Why waste time on a note that isn't likely to buy much time?

Edit: Let me state it another way. I'm saying, as a matter of probability, such a note wouldn't be likely to buy much time. In this case the parents didn't search until police arrived, and the police did a poor job. However, why would an intruder assume that outcome? I'd assume the greater probability was that the parents do an immediate search while waiting for police to arrive, and the police do a thorough search - perhaps turning on lights or using their flashlits. I don't think the note was written to buy time.

 

[angelwngs]

angelwngs,

I would guess because there may be a divide in terms of who people suspect was the perpetrator, and what outwardly indications there might be of this.

I would guess the majority of WS'ers may be female and some do not believe that the behaviour of Patsy, following JonBenet's death, reflected that of an innocent person.

You also have the opposite camp that believe no mother would ever garrote or sexually assault her own daughter therefore she is innocent by default.

So one camp say she is damned by her statements and behaviour or lack of, and the other suggest the maternal instinct is a get out of jail card.

JMO.

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~~~~Excellent Points, UKguy. But....(and this is a big BUT), I personally fall into another category: Female, and one who has NO opinion as to who is guilty of JBR's murder. I feel that "maternal instinct" is defined by the innate protective instinct for the preservation of what is near and dear to you. Whether PR was directly 'involved' in her daughter's death or not, after JBR's murder, I think PR's innate maternal instinct was to protect her living family members, herself, and the memory of her daughter. I think that she battled between the self-created image of the "family" she portrayed to the World and the Real Authentic family.

From personal experience, I have witnessed family members who created this grandios image of the 'Perfect Norman Rockwell' version of "Family". I have stood on the sidelines, watching their horror and confusion as they tried to pick up the pieces and put them back into place the reality HAPPENS. (And in almost every Life...Reality seems to Happen... ) IMO, when one builds their lives around self-made images of reality, they always seem to crumble and fall apart. The high profile ones are just more noticable. (Marylin Monroe, OJ, Michael Jackson, Mel Gibson, Tom Cruise, The Royal Family, The Kennedy's, etc. etc.)

This is why I always try to be a realist. I have never wanted to get slapped in the face with reality, because I had faked anything and had to regroup and create yet another 'reality' for people to view.

 

[JBean]

But it didn't work for the intruder. The only thing that prevented JBR from being found was that the Ramseys didn't do a thorough search of the house -which I think most people would do- and the police did a crap job of searching. If I were an intruder/killer I'd assume the family would search top to bottom. I'd assume the police would too. Why waste time on a note that isn't likely to buy much time?

Edit: Let me state it another way. I'm saying, as a matter of probability, such a note wouldn't be likely to buy much time. In this case the parents didn't search until police arrived, and the police did a poor job. However, why would an intruder assume that outcome? I'd assume the greater probability was that the parents do an immediate search while waiting for police to arrive, and the police do a thorough search - perhaps turning on lights or using their flashlits. I don't think the note was written to buy time.

I disagree and my theory is evidenced by what happened.I think it happened almost as well as he hoped it might.
IMO, it did work for the intruder, but it would have worked better if the R's did what he had hoped and not contacted anyone. I would guess the murderer was hoping they would wait and wait and wait for a call that would never come. In that sense you are correct it didn't work the way the perp may have hoped. but it did work well enough.

 

[JBean]

Why would an intruder start out saying "Mr Ramsey"...and then later in the letter start saying "John" like they know him?

Also, why wouldn't the intruder make a short and sweet note, instead of an essay? Taking the risk of sitting in the house and writing the note (after practicing some)...just to gain the possibility of having people think they're dealing with a kidnapping for a few hours, if even that.

I personally think the ransom note was written by someone who didn't know how most RN's tend to be.
In terms of a Ramsey writing it...I think the idea behind it was to make the police suspect someone the Ramseys' knew, or someone from John's job...and veer attention away from the Ramsey family themselves.

I love that theory of the Ramseys did it to make it look like someone else didi it to make it look like the ramseys did it. Cracks me up.

Personally, I don't think writing the note was the risky part. I think torturing and killing JB was the risky part. The RN was perhaps an afterthought to slow LE down, which worked BTW.

I think they perp did know their names, which is why he addressed him as John. People using first names is a sign of equality or superiority. I am sure the perp thought of himself as equal or better.

 

[Chrishope]

I disagree and my theory is evidenced by what happened.I think it happened almost as well as he hoped it might.
IMO, it did work for the intruder, but it would have worked better if the R's did what he had hoped and not contacted anyone. I would guess the murderer was hoping they would wait and wait and wait for a call that would never come. In that sense you are correct it didn't work the way the perp may have hoped. but it did work well enough.

If the Rs took the note seriously enough to believe their daughter wasn't in the house, then why did they not take it seriously about not calling the police? Why did they invite friends/neighbors over? Why did they say to themselves "Oh, well no sense doing a search, she's been abducted" but at the same time ignore the warning against contacting authorities? It wasn't the note that bought time, because they really paid no attention to the note - or if you prefer, paid selective attention to it. What bought time is that they didn't search, as most people I talk to say they would, and the police did a poor job of searching 7 minutes after the phone call.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think the note is for other purposes than buying the intruder a bit of time.

 

[Chrishope]

... The RN was perhaps an afterthought to slow LE down, which worked BTW. ...

Well, it bought him at best 7 minutes -assuming an IDI theory. It turned into several hours, but that wasn't due to the note, but rather the inept search. The intruder couldn't have planned for the police to be so sloppy.