Why would the Ramseys need to stage?

[otg]

(Respectfully snipped):

I've heard or read somewhere that just prior to death from that type of head injury, the victim would have something along the lines of a seizure (may not be the correct term) because the brain is starving for oxygen.

Cerebral hypoxic seizures (or convulsions).
wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_hypoxia
http://patients.aan.com/disorders/index.cfm?event=view&disorder_id=883

(and):

Thank you for finally making this statement. I have long wondered about an oral situation because of the reference to the possibility of blood tinged saliva on JB's cheek. According to the autopsy, there was no sign of blood in the ear or nasal canals, or in the stomach or esophagus. Or abrasions noted around the lips or mouth.

I don't believe the blood tinged saliva has anything to do with oral sex. It is however very common in strangulation. From the book Forensic Medicine: Clinical and Patholigical Aspects, Page 267 (bbm):

Traces of saliva may be present at the corners of the mouth. Salivation is increased by stimulation of the pterygopalatine ganglion. This excessive saliva runs from the angles of the mouth downwards, if the mouth is not positioned horizontally, and mostly drops onto the clothes in the area of the chest. The traces of the dried saliva then make it possible to judge whether the situation in which the body was found corresponds to that at the time that the person was hanging. Increased amounts of secretions may be discharged from the nose as well. Both secretions may be tinged with blood.

Bleeding (note: the author is referring here to actual bleeding) from the mouth can also be the result of injuries to the mucous membranes of the tongue or lips due to convulsion, with corresponding biting injuries, the convulsions resulting from cerebral hypoxia.

The "biting injuries" the author is speaking to above are injuries to the victim's own tongue or lips. Jonbenet had none of these type of injuries, and therefore, I don't believe she had convulsions as a result of the loss of oxygen to her brain. Convulsions (or seizures) are not always a result, especially if there are other injuries, and especially an injury causing unconsciousness.

 

[UKGuy]

Should we remember in discussing the reasoning/timing of the injuries as related to staging, that according to info in Kolar's book, and in the opinion of others previously, there could be as much as 90 minutes time lapse between the bash and the ligature strangling?

Also, IMHO we cannot totally discount the possibility of some type of manual strangulation being a precedent to the head bash, and then the final ligature strangulation covering up the signs of the first strangulation. There are justifiable theories and professional opinions to support the 3-fold attempt on JB's life, even if part of it was rage or accident rather than intentional.

midwest mama,
ITA. This would make sense if you consider the wine-cellar as staging. Why bother a partial staging and relocate JonBenet, only for the postmortem theorists to work out what was what?

This has always been my original theory, but like others I lack proof of concept.

Also I consider it entirely possible that the head bash is also staging, albeit failed staging, in that even the Coroner failed to notice any head injury, until he exposed her skull. i.e. the head bash was intended to demonstrate the IDI violence angle?

I think its obvious to most ws members that the ligature is staging, even if you do not think there was a prior manual strangulation?

That JonBenet has injuries, marks and constraints etc, it does not follow they were applied as part of the primary crime-scene. These might have been applied at a secondary crime scene, which we then attempt to rationalise into a linear sequence, dramatising our favorite theory.

It might be as simple as JonBenet being manually throttled until she blacked out, with the rest being staging enacted by different people over the next hour or two?

.

 

[UKGuy]

(Respectfully snipped):

Cerebral hypoxic seizures (or convulsions).
wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_hypoxia
http://patients.aan.com/disorders/index.cfm?event=view&disorder_id=883

(and):

I don't believe the blood tinged saliva has anything to do with oral sex. It is however very common in strangulation. From the book Forensic Medicine: Clinical and Patholigical Aspects, Page 267 (bbm):The "biting injuries" the author is speaking to above are injuries to the victim's own tongue or lips. Jonbenet had none of these type of injuries, and therefore, I don't believe she had convulsions as a result of the loss of oxygen to her brain. Convulsions (or seizures) are not always a result, especially if there are other injuries, and especially an injury causing unconsciousness.

otg,
ITA. The tongue can fall to the back of the mouth, so avoiding being bitten, but it could cause asphyxiation, without any observer recognizing what was taking place?

Was there not a discharge from her nose that some have speculated as being related to her head injury?


.

 

[wengr]

Logical thinking. Note, I commented "a" flashlight. I agree with you that the actual bash weapon was either removed before the police arrived, or carefully cleaned and replaced to it's original position in the area of the crime. I am skeptical that the maglite found on the counter was much more than a red herring, but since it was clean of prints, cannot totally rule it out. There has been much comment over the years about both children having flashlights in their bedrooms, and often parents keep flashlights near their children's rooms or in their own bedrooms for checking on kids (or possible 'burglars') in the night.

Doesn't it seem a bit odd to think a household the size of the Ramseys' would only have one flashlight in it?? There were some line items blacked out on the search warrants that were released to the public.

Yes good point, one would expect multiple flashlights might be present in a 7000+ sq ft house. I do think however that in the whole spectrum of household flashlights, that the vast majority are unlikely to cause such damage, especially if wielded by a ten year old. I have a 3 D cell maglight here now and I have no problem accepting that it has enough heft. So, multiple maglights? Sadly I suspect we'll never know. I suppose that any redacted info will remain hidden for as long as the case is open?

 

[wengr]

I guess being a granny I have been a bit too prudish:blushing: to bring up the possibility of JB being involved in a reciprocal situation of sex play with male members in her family.....

Hmmm. Your phrase here - "reciprocal situation of sex play" - makes me think, that's just the type of thing that various people might react quite differently to. For example, one might call 911 while someone else might turn the responding police officer away from inside the house. Just thinking out loud. Apologies if my thoughts are all old news. I'm pretty much a noob.

 

[DeeDee249]

The urine on the bedsheets was dried, so it may have been there from the night of the 23rd. This was the last morning LHP had changed the sheets and she told LE that the ones on her bed (Beauty & the Beast) were NOT the ones she put on the bed on the 23rd. So Patsy put them on the morning of the 24th. The presence of the dried urine by no means is proof that she went to bed or to sleep Christmas night.
With Patsy's lax housekeeping habits, it is certainly possible that they went off to the White's that day without the sheets being changed. In ANY house with kids, Christmas morning is hectic. Patsy was known to leave beds unmade till LHP came to make them. I can see her not making them Christmas morning- wet sheets or not. After all, crime photos show an appalling mess in the kitchen- the remains of the family's Christmas morning pancake breakfast. And Patsy just left that.

 

[dodie20]

Yes good point, one would expect multiple flashlights might be present in a 7000+ sq ft house. I do think however that in the whole spectrum of household flashlights, that the vast majority are unlikely to cause such damage, especially if wielded by a ten year old. I have a 3 D cell maglight here now and I have no problem accepting that it has enough heft. So, multiple maglights? Sadly I suspect we'll never know. I suppose that any redacted info will remain hidden for as long as the case is open?

speaking of this case being open, I have a few questions. After 16 yrs, shouldn't this case be classified as cold or something? What exactly would this entail? If this case is reclassified, will the secret information be made public, or will it remain under lock and key? Just curious, because after 16 years, I don't see how they can claim they are still making progress towards a conclusion. Is there a checks and balance system where investigators have to show their progress?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

speaking of this case being open, I have a few questions. After 16 yrs, shouldn't this case be classified as cold or something? What exactly would this entail? If this case is reclassified, will the secret information be made public, or will it remain under lock and key? Just curious, because after 16 years, I don't see how they can claim they are still making progress towards a conclusion. Is there a checks and balance system where investigators have to show their progress?

Even if the case was classified as cold, why does that mean they have to release all information about it? I mean, is there a law requiring them to do so? IDK..I feel like they could get around that. I can't wrap my head around them declaring this case cold/closed tomorrow, and then us knowing every detail. But I remember that the case was re-opened in 2009, so wouldn't that imply that it was closed prior to that?

 

[dodie20]

IDK, but I think in some states, certain laws kick in after a certain amount of time, and information is made public. LE using the excuse that releasing information would hurt the integrity of the case only works so long. I'm sure there are other cases like this, but if I was a family member, I would be demanding some answers. IDK what a reasonable amount of time is, (a couple of years maybe?), but 16 years? No way. I remember in the Jeffrey Mcdonald case, his in laws had to beg and go through every legal channel imaginable, and basically hound the authorities for answers, but they finally got the documents.

 

[midwest mama]

The urine on the bedsheets was dried, so it may have been there from the night of the 23rd. This was the last morning LHP had changed the sheets and she told LE that the ones on her bed (Beauty & the Beast) were NOT the ones she put on the bed on the 23rd. So Patsy put them on the morning of the 24th. The presence of the dried urine by no means is proof that she went to bed or to sleep Christmas night.
With Patsy's lax housekeeping habits, it is certainly possible that they went off to the White's that day without the sheets being changed. In ANY house with kids, Christmas morning is hectic. Patsy was known to leave beds unmade till LHP came to make them. I can see her not making them Christmas morning- wet sheets or not. After all, crime photos show an appalling mess in the kitchen- the remains of the family's Christmas morning pancake breakfast. And Patsy just left that.

BBM My thought on this time line - Fresh Beauty and Beast sheets on the bed on Dec 24th. (Pink checked sheets were in dryer photo- taken on the 26th - shown to LHP, which were the ones she put on the bed on the 23rd). JB was put to bed that evening (24th - Christmas Eve) in the pink pj's wearing a pull-up, because I doubt Patsy would want to deal with wet sheets and a fresh pj change again on Christmas morning and knew the kids would be up early for Santa gifts. JB's Christmas morning photos show her wearing the pink pj set. There might have been time taken to take off a wet pull-up and put on a dry pull-up or undies Christmas morning, otherwise if JB had wet her bed during the night of 24th - 25th, (no pull up on) there would have been a whole change out during the night or early morning, unless JB came down for Santa on Christmas morning wearing wet up pink pj's. So, I would surmise that perhaps the B&B sheets were still clean all day Christmas Day, and in order to have dried urine in them on the 26th, the urine would have probably happened on the night of the 25th - 26th? JMO

Otherwise, the LHP pink and white sheets stayed on until sometime during the 25th. Then the B&B sheets were also put on at that time, and in order for them be found with dried urine on the 26th, JB had to have wet them sometime on the 25th or early 26th.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM My thought on this time line - Fresh Beauty and Beast sheets on the bed on Dec 24th. (Pink checked sheets were in dryer photo- taken on the 26th - shown to LHP, which were the ones she put on the bed on the 23rd). JB was put to bed that evening (24th - Christmas Eve) in the pink pj's wearing a pull-up, because I doubt Patsy would want to deal with wet sheets and a fresh pj change again on Christmas morning and knew the kids would be up early for Santa gifts. JB's Christmas morning photos show her wearing the pink pj set. There might have been time taken to take off a wet pull-up and put on a dry pull-up or undies Christmas morning, otherwise if JB had wet her bed during the night of 24th - 25th, (no pull up on) there would have been a whole change out during the night or early morning, unless JB came down for Santa on Christmas morning wearing wet up pink pj's. So, I would surmise that perhaps the B&B sheets were still clean all day Christmas Day, and in order to have dried urine in them on the 26th, the urine would have probably happened on the night of the 25th - 26th? JMO

Otherwise, the LHP pink and white sheets stayed on until sometime during the 25th. Then the B&B sheets were also put on at that time, and in order for them be found with dried urine on the 26th, JB had to have wet them sometime on the 25th or early 26th.

midwest mama,
I remember, some interview with Patsy, where she suggested JonBenet was in Burke's room on the night of the 24th/25th. This might have been calculated misinformation of course.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

speaking of this case being open, I have a few questions. After 16 yrs, shouldn't this case be classified as cold or something? What exactly would this entail? If this case is reclassified, will the secret information be made public, or will it remain under lock and key? Just curious, because after 16 years, I don't see how they can claim they are still making progress towards a conclusion. Is there a checks and balance system where investigators have to show their progress?

Even if the case is reclassified as cold it it still also classified as UNSOLVED, and as such all the evidence cannot be made public.

 

[DeeDee249]

BBM My thought on this time line - Fresh Beauty and Beast sheets on the bed on Dec 24th. (Pink checked sheets were in dryer photo- taken on the 26th - shown to LHP, which were the ones she put on the bed on the 23rd). JB was put to bed that evening (24th - Christmas Eve) in the pink pj's wearing a pull-up, because I doubt Patsy would want to deal with wet sheets and a fresh pj change again on Christmas morning and knew the kids would be up early for Santa gifts. JB's Christmas morning photos show her wearing the pink pj set. There might have been time taken to take off a wet pull-up and put on a dry pull-up or undies Christmas morning, otherwise if JB had wet her bed during the night of 24th - 25th, (no pull up on) there would have been a whole change out during the night or early morning, unless JB came down for Santa on Christmas morning wearing wet up pink pj's. So, I would surmise that perhaps the B&B sheets were still clean all day Christmas Day, and in order to have dried urine in them on the 26th, the urine would have probably happened on the night of the 25th - 26th? JMO

Otherwise, the LHP pink and white sheets stayed on until sometime during the 25th. Then the B&B sheets were also put on at that time, and in order for them be found with dried urine on the 26th, JB had to have wet them sometime on the 25th or early 26th.

JB was dead by the 26th. We really have no way of knowing whether JB was put to bed wearing pull-ups or not, so there is still the possibility that Patsy put the B & B sheets on the morning of the 24th- and just never changed them Christmas morning, perhaps thinking she'd put clean sheets on when they got home Christmas night. One thing we do know (it is clear in the photo)- that bed was made up WITHOUT the white blanket. My feeling is that it was still in the basement dryer and Patsy did not take the time to go down to get it; she just made up the bed without it.

 

[midwest mama]

JB was dead by the 26th. We really have no way of knowing whether JB was put to bed wearing pull-ups or not, so there is still the possibility that Patsy put the B & B sheets on the morning of the 24th- and just never changed them Christmas morning, perhaps thinking she'd put clean sheets on when they got home Christmas night. One thing we do know (it is clear in the photo)- that bed was made up WITHOUT the white blanket. My feeling is that it was still in the basement dryer and Patsy did not take the time to go down to get it; she just made up the bed without it.

Agree that Patsy made up the bed into the B&B sheets without putting on the white blanket. LHP said JB's sheets and blanket could be washed in the upstairs washer, and with the pink checked sheets found in the upstairs dryer according to the police photo they showed her, do you think the white blanket was also in that load, or that the blanket got taken down to the basement washer? I once thought the blanket would have been in the basement dryer, but not so sure now.

If those B&B sheets were put on the bed on the 24th, and JB did wet them during the night, that might be why Patsy (as UKGuy related) said JB went and spent the night in Burke's room. JB could have changed herself out of whatever she went to bed in on the night of the 24th into the dry pink pj set and then bunked in with Burke - waking up early on the 25th, using the bathroom, and being able to go down to Santa without smelly pee pj's on.

And, as you say, your theory of Patsy waiting until later sometime on Christmas Day to change the bedding, but did not, is plausible. Then, whether or not JB was put to bed on the night of the 25th, the sheets would have been dirty (probably no biggie for the R's having had such a busy Christmas day) accounting for dried urine being found in them when they were tested.

Now, how do we account for the same 'rope' fibers being vacuumed from her bed that were also found on her shirt? Transference? Or was JB herself in that bed at the same time as the rope and shirt? Alive, comatose, or already dead? AARRRRGGHHHH :banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[NocturnalLady]

I'm pretty sure the R's were afraid of all of the first three options!

 

[DeeDee249]

Now, how do we account for the same 'rope' fibers being vacuumed from her bed that were also found on her shirt? Transference? Or was JB herself in that bed at the same time as the rope and shirt? Alive, comatose, or already dead? AARRRRGGHHHH :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Most people are barefoot when they walk to their beds or walk around their bedrooms at some point. JB's room, like most of the house, had wall-to-wall carpet. Take it from me, I don't care HOW much they are vacuumed or cleaned- there is ALWAYS lots of stuff in carpets. Fibers, hair, food particles, carpet beetles (YEP- even in the cleanest homes)
That hemp rope was found in JAR's room. It was NOT found in a brown paper bag, as reported, but rather it was PUT in a brown paper evidence bag (like JB's hands). The hemp fibers were very likely carried into her bed on her own feet. If the shirt was lying on the unmade bed the rope fibers would transfer that way. There was lots of other clothing on that unmade bed, too. But I bet it wasn't tested for the fibers.

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Could it be that rope often had a role in the sexual abuse scenarios? This could explain rope fibers in her bed.

 

[midwest mama]

Could it be that rope often had a role in the sexual abuse scenarios? This could explain rope fibers in her bed.

The rope from JAR's bedroom. JAR's room had a western theme Christmas Tree, and IIRC, the year of JB's death, there was NOT a rope on the tree that year. And I think (help me out WS'ers) that the rope was said NOT to have matched the rope used in the western theme portfolio pictures of JB.

What is interesting, however, is that JAR's room had the western theme, he idolized his sister to college friends, and there was a lovely portfolio grouping of JB as a little cowgirl, and she did a pageant entry as a cowgirl.

Besides the LasVegas Showgirl entry, does anyone know of other specific "characters" that were portrayed in JB's photography portfolio?

Maybe JAR thought it would be awesome to have JB done up as a cowgirl, if he was into the western theme?

 

[UKGuy]

The rope from JAR's bedroom. JAR's room had a western theme Christmas Tree, and IIRC, the year of JB's death, there was NOT a rope on the tree that year. And I think (help me out WS'ers) that the rope was said NOT to have matched the rope used in the western theme portfolio pictures of JB.

What is interesting, however, is that JAR's room had the western theme, he idolized his sister to college friends, and there was a lovely portfolio grouping of JB as a little cowgirl, and she did a pageant entry as a cowgirl.

Besides the LasVegas Showgirl entry, does anyone know of other specific "characters" that were portrayed in JB's photography portfolio?

Maybe JAR thought it would be awesome to have JB done up as a cowgirl, if he was into the western theme?

midwest mama,
I remember someone saying they were different types of rope. I wonder now if the collection of pictures found in the basement belonged to JAR? Maybe they were in the suitcase originally, could JAR have used the Dr. Suess book to read to JonBenet?


.

 

[Venom]

The rope from JAR's bedroom. JAR's room had a western theme Christmas Tree, and IIRC, the year of JB's death, there was NOT a rope on the tree that year. And I think (help me out WS'ers) that the rope was said NOT to have matched the rope used in the western theme portfolio pictures of JB.

What is interesting, however, is that JAR's room had the western theme, he idolized his sister to college friends, and there was a lovely portfolio grouping of JB as a little cowgirl, and she did a pageant entry as a cowgirl.

Besides the LasVegas Showgirl entry, does anyone know of other specific "characters" that were portrayed in JB's photography portfolio?

Maybe JAR thought it would be awesome to have JB done up as a cowgirl, if he was into the western theme?

Does anyone else find it odd that a 20 something college aged man would have pictures of his 6 year old half sister hanging up in his room? JMO of course.