Why would the Ramseys need to stage?

[DeeDee249]

5 LOU SMIT: Photograph number --

6 JOHN RAMSEY: -- 149, that was like

7 (INAUDIBLE) what looks like a big piece of duct

8 tape. That doesn't look like that tape I took off

9 JonBenet's mouth.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay. And why do you say that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, because as I recall,

12 it was black. It was like a little larger than

13 electrical tape in width. And it struck me, and as

14 I thought about it later, as the kind of tape you

15 might use in sailing to wrap around the stanchion

16 or something.

17 LOU SMIT: The black tape?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

19 LOU SMIT: Have you used that type of

20 tape on (INAUDIBLE)?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't recognize it.

22 But in this picture, it looks like a piece of duct

23 tape. A big piece of duct tape. And that's not

24 what I remember.

25 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's on photograph number --

0291

1 JOHN RAMSEY: 149. Cause it was like stuck

2 to the blanket almost in this picture.

Still lying is he?? Or another transcription error?? That transcription weasel again.

Still lying. He had already said he was the one who removed the tape from his daughter's mouth. The tape in question was tested and JB's lip prints were found on the tape. There was no other tape (as IDI has repeatedly said).
BTW, RDI says there was no tape on her legs NOT because it doesn't fit our theories but because there was no tape found that could have been on her legs. What reason would LE have to hide it and leave the piece that was on her mouth? If the crime scene was staged, what difference would it make if her legs were taped or not? It would be seen as just one more part of the staging.
I say her legs were not taped because there was no tape and also because her legs would have remained in that position for the next 2 days. It has nothing to do with my "theory" or any theory, IMO. It has to do with evidence. NO other tape in the basement and no reports of her legs being "frozen" together.

 

[cynic]

My point about the duct tape in the photo, stuck to the blanket, has been confirmed by JR. It was not the tape he took from her mouth.

Yes it was

1. Where are the pieces of black tape that were on her legs?

There never was any - you are seeing the other side of the black duct tape.

2. Where did this piece of grey duct tape that was stuck to the blanket come from?

There is no grey duct tape.

 

[MurriFlower]

Yes it was

There never was any - you are seeing the other side of the black duct tape.

There is no grey duct tape.

I prefer to take the word of the person who was there at the time, rather than your take on it cynic. OK?

 

[MurriFlower]

Still lying. He had already said he was the one who removed the tape from his daughter's mouth. The tape in question was tested and JB's lip prints were found on the tape. There was no other tape (as IDI has repeatedly said).
BTW, RDI says there was no tape on her legs NOT because it doesn't fit our theories but because there was no tape found that could have been on her legs. What reason would LE have to hide it and leave the piece that was on her mouth? If the crime scene was staged, what difference would it make if her legs were taped or not? It would be seen as just one more part of the staging.
I say her legs were not taped because there was no tape and also because her legs would have remained in that position for the next 2 days. It has nothing to do with my "theory" or any theory, IMO. It has to do with evidence. NO other tape in the basement and no reports of her legs being "frozen" together.

Perhaps the LE just doesn't want anyone to know about the other tape?
JR is not lying, he has no need to.
The perfect imprint of her lips was a BPD statement.
JR did not say her legs were taped, he said "there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs" - stuck perhaps?

 

[Zak]

In DOI, page 22, JR says and I quote " I open it and see JonBenet lying on the floor, with a white blanket around her. Black tape covers her mouth."


No where in the book does he mention any other tape but the black piece covering her lips.

 

[cynic]

I prefer to take the word of the person who was there at the time, rather than your take on it cynic. OK?

There was precisely one piece of tape on the person of JBR. That single piece of tape was Shurtape PC 600 black utility duct tape as identified by the FBI.

The duct tape depicted on this picture, you can see it actually on the blanket that was on the floor of the wine cellar. This is a photograph taken by the Boulder Police Department at the crime scene of the blanket, the white blanket lying on the floor of the wine cellar.
Adhering to this blanket is a piece of duct tape. John Ramsey stated that, when he went down to the basement and found his daughter, that she had duct tape on her mouth. He said he took it, and he took it off of her mouth. He also said that he took the ligature that was on her wrist and removed it, and then he took her upstairs.
-Lou Smit Deposition

"Earlier when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenet's cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
ST Page 29

I guess if you are unwilling to see that this is black duct tape we are discussing, there is little hope for further progress in this area.

 

[MurriFlower]

There was precisely one piece of tape on the person of JBR. That single piece of tape was Shurtape PC 600 black utility duct tape as identified by the FBI.

The duct tape depicted on this picture, you can see it actually on the blanket that was on the floor of the wine cellar. This is a photograph taken by the Boulder Police Department at the crime scene of the blanket, the white blanket lying on the floor of the wine cellar.
Adhering to this blanket is a piece of duct tape. John Ramsey stated that, when he went down to the basement and found his daughter, that she had duct tape on her mouth. He said he took it, and he took it off of her mouth. He also said that he took the ligature that was on her wrist and removed it, and then he took her upstairs.
-Lou Smit Deposition



"Earlier when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenet's cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
ST Page 29

I guess if you are unwilling to see that this is black duct tape we are discussing, there is little hope for further progress in this area.

Neither Lou Smit or Steve Thomas were there when the body was found. If you are willing to believe second hand evidence rather than the evidence of the person who was actually there at the time and who actually saw and removed the tape, then there is little hope that you would be willing see anything clearly.

 

[cynic]

Neither Lou Smit or Steve Thomas were there when the body was found. If you are willing to believe second hand evidence rather than the evidence of the person who was actually there at the time and who actually saw and removed the tape, then there is little hope that you would be willing see anything clearly.

So it’s your contention that somehow two of the primary people who investigated the case, along with all of those individuals who were involved in further questioning of the Ramseys, were somehow unaware that there was more than one piece of tape on JBR’s body? It seems you also believe that it was a mistake that LE failed to take JR’s expert opinion and chose to believe the FBI with respect to the fact that the tape covering JBR’s mouth was black duct tape?

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'll be generous, Fang, and say that perhaps I overgeneralized. When I say that the intruder theory absolves us from thinking, I meant that it makes the issue very simple, where good is good, and evil is evil. In the intruder theory, it doesn't matter WHY the creep killed JB. He was just a "bad" guy, the human equivalent of a mad dog. He's not "like us." There's something "wrong" with him, in a way in which we are completely "normal." And LIKE a mad dog, he can't be reasoned with. He has to be put down before he hurts anybody else. It allows us to place the "intruder" in the same category as all of society's bogeymen. It's clean, neat, and it doesn't rock the comfort zone.

But that's what RDI does: it rocks the comfort zone to its foundation. And in that sense, my theory DOES require effort. It FORCES us to face our own demons, and to admit just how easily those demons break free. It shows just how easy it would be for any one of us to become killers. That's a path most people are too scared to follow. I think Gregg McCrary said it best, and he'd know: we want to think of child killers as less than human, ugly, easily identifiable monsters like Shakespeare's Richard III. But they're not monsters. They're humans, just like us. That's pretty frightening for most people.

It has nothing to do with this murder.

Ample examples of good people acting horrifically make perfectly clear the haunting nature of human character.

 

[MurriFlower]

So it’s your contention that somehow two of the primary people who investigated the case, along with all of those individuals who were involved in further questioning of the Ramseys, were somehow unaware that there was more that one piece of tape on JBR’s body? It seems you also believe that it was a mistake that LE failed to take JR’s expert opinion and chose to believe the FBI with respect to the fact that the tape covering JBR’s mouth was black duct tape?

No, I believe that the FBI probably analysed the tape it was given by BPD. What I am saying is that the tape depicted in the photo on ACR (149), that was shown to JR, is not the black tape that was on her mouth. I first noticed this myself and that is what started this conversation. In researching the matter I find that JR had also said this in the interview. He was there, neither Smit nor Thomas were. There is also other black tape that was (?) stuck(?) to her legs that appears to be missing (or at least as far as we are concerned). Why has no one else noticed or commented on this??

I don't know what to think, if it was a mistake, or un-revealed evidence, or a problem with the fact that what was there was not the way the crime scene was left by JR. When he pointed out that the tape on the blanket wasn't the tape on her mouth, no one seemed to take much notice.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I'll be generous, Fang, and say that perhaps I overgeneralized. When I say that the intruder theory absolves us from thinking, I meant that it makes the issue very simple, where good is good, and evil is evil. In the intruder theory, it doesn't matter WHY the creep killed JB. He was just a "bad" guy, the human equivalent of a mad dog. He's not "like us." There's something "wrong" with him, in a way in which we are completely "normal." And LIKE a mad dog, he can't be reasoned with. He has to be put down before he hurts anybody else. It allows us to place the "intruder" in the same category as all of society's bogeymen. It's clean, neat, and it doesn't rock the comfort zone.

Wow, did you meet JBR's killer because I'm impressed with your characterization.

What you seem to be not really considering--EVEN SLIGHTLY--is that there are people who are REALLY NOT NORMAL. Usually, it is the result of childhood traumas that has left them emotionally or morally vacant and capable of conscience-free acts.

I suggest asking yourself: If a parent lovingly wrapped JBR, why the unnecessary roughness of the ransom note? Why is the ONLY explicit threat of physical violence to JBR, a six year old girl, a beheading threat? This isn't sexual predator. This isn't boogeyman. This isn't parental staging to look like a kidnap for ransom plot.

Nah, what you have here is a person who is embracing evil. Striving for evil. This type of personality is evident at the crime scene in both word and deed. RDI's repeated claims that these evil deeds didn't even happen can't be validated. In fact, there is the potential for even more evil deeds that we don't know about because of the time gap

But that's what RDI does: it rocks the comfort zone to its foundation. And in that sense, my theory DOES require effort. It FORCES us to face our own demons, and to admit just how easily those demons break free. It shows just how easy it would be for any one of us to become killers. That's a path most people are too scared to follow. I think Gregg McCrary said it best, and he'd know: we want to think of child killers as less than human, ugly, easily identifiable monsters like Shakespeare's Richard III. But they're not monsters. They're humans, just like us. That's pretty frightening for most people.

But wait--my comfort zone's not rocked. I'm still comfortable. When I see JR or PR on TV I don't feel threatened; I see no demons, no con man, no child killer, no ransom note writer. I don't see a child abuser or a rage-filled pent up parent.

I think the reason for this is because I have been unable to witness anything convincing enough to support this view. The events from before, during, and after the murder have really not provided a sufficient basis to support these ideas.




.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Well HOTYH, great stuff. The mission to open our eyes to the dark side of our nature, particularly those who excel in social graces, trumps all else. It just isn't that unique. Forcing the events to fit it requires excursions off the deep end which he mistakenly equates with great mental effort and a splash of genius. He doesn't grasp the profound weaknesses of his "theory." All real and perceived faults are dismissed with the same broad brush.

 

[cynic]

No, I believe that the FBI probably analysed the tape it was given by BPD. What I am saying is that the tape depicted in the photo on ACR (149), that was shown to JR, is not the black tape that was on her mouth. I first noticed this myself and that is what started this conversation. In researching the matter I find that JR had also said this in the interview. He was there, neither Smit nor Thomas were. There is also other black tape that was (?) stuck(?) to her legs that appears to be missing (or at least as far as we are concerned). Why has no one else noticed or commented on this??

I don't know what to think, if it was a mistake, or un-revealed evidence, or a problem with the fact that what was there was not the way the crime scene was left by JR. When he pointed out that the tape on the blanket wasn't the tape on her mouth, no one seemed to take much notice.

JOHN RAMSEY: There was a piece of fairly wide black tape, which I immediately took off. Her lips were blue.
…
LOU SMIT: And the duct tape, do you remember if it was adhered all the way to her mouth?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But
it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape.

So far, Lou Smit, who, like Steve Thomas, has undoubtedly seen the tape in evidence calls it duct tape, and everyone agrees it was black in color.
JR doesn’t seem willing to call it duct tape, but as I’ve pointed out that is not unusual, he was questioned and tried to be evasive about a number of things. questioning the Kleenex box was perhaps the most notable.
If you believe he was sincerely confused about what it was, coming from an IDI perspective, then you need to go no further for an answer than when he says that he is not aware of duct tape in any other color than grey. The fact of the matter is that it was indeed duct tape, Shurtape ultility grade black duct tape, with a fabric reinforcing weave as is common to all duct tape sold in the USA.
“Duct tape is a strong tape that is composed of three layers. The top layer (1) is a resilient plastic (Polyethelyne). The bottom layer (3) is a rubber-based adhesive. The middle layer (2) is a fabric mesh. Duct tape was manufactured by pressing these three layers together. Now, some manufacturers have created a process that makes the same strong, three layer tape in just one step. While there are stronger tapes (like filament tape), duct tape, when doubled over onto itself can pull a 2000 lb. car out of a ditch, and has the distinct benefit of not requiring any other tools to cut it - you just rip it with your bare hands.”
http://www.ducttapeguys.com/DT101/index.html

Let’s establish JR's credentials as a duct tape expert:

JOHN RAMSEY: Well it's just it wasn't a tape that looked familiar to me, or it looked
like it wasn't torn, it was cut perfectly, literally, that it fit her mouth. It was black, it
wider than electrical tape, but not as wide as duct tape. I mean I know what duct tape is; it wasn't duct tape.

So far, he says he knows what duct tape is and he is sure this isn’t duct tape.
Does he know?

LOU SMIT: I am going to show you another item. It's a roll of tape.
JOHN RAMSEY: This looks certainly similar in color but it looks much wider than I recall. I tried to remember, I would say that it must be that kind of width.
…
JOHN RAMSEY: Gee, I am having such a hard time but what I remember about it was it, it was cut squarely, it wasn't torn or wasn't too much. It was just a very properly cut
piece of tape.

LOU SMIT: That was your impression?
JOHN RAMSEY: That was my -- as I remember it. But it was black, it was a bit narrower than that.
LOU SMIT: Was it light in that room or how could you tell?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. It just seemed light enough. And I don't remember if I turned on the light or not, but.
LOU SMIT: I mean did you look at the ends?
JOHN RAMSEY: No, just an impression, you know, and as I thought about it later, that's what I remember.
…
LOU SMIT: Fine, we won't go into any more of that. But have you ever seen anything like this before? This is really critical, because our -- the killer left that behind, there is no doubt
about that. It's a clue that we have.
JOHN RAMSEY: Is this the size of the tape?
MIKE KANE: Yes, it is.
JOHN RAMSEY: I thought it was narrower.
VOICE: When you say he left that behind, do you mean he left a roll behind?
LOU SMIT: No, he left the tape behind.
VOICE: Just the tape that we find that was on her mouth?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, if I were to speculate that's something that Fleet White
would have, which --
LOU SMIT: And why would you say that, have you ever seen anything like that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Maybe, you know, I can't -- I can't remember for sure, but Fleet
had -- when we got, went up to get our boat ready for this Mackinaw, Mackinaw race was a 300-mile race, Fleet had some special tapes, I remember white tape. And possibly I remember black duct tape. The only kind of duct tape I have ever seen a gray.
…
LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE). We have to try to find that someone that has that. How often have you seen black duct tape?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that I ever have.

So, what have we learned?
JR is shown a roll of tape which is the same width as the tape from JBR’s mouth.
JR claims that the tape that he removed was black, but was narrower, and despite the fact he doesn’t remember whether the light was on or off, he remembers that the tape “was cut squarely, it wasn't torn or wasn't too much. It was just a very properly cut piece of tape.”
He now admits that the only duct tape he has ever seen is grey, and that he has never seen black duct tape.
I think we have now established JR’s credentials as an expert in the field of black duct tape. I guess I will have to go with the FBI and their determination that it was black utility grade duct tape, Shurtape PC-600.

In terms of the photo of the duct tape on the blanket, you are either seeing the sticky (white/grey) side of the duct tape or possibly an artifact due to flash glare.
And please don’t ask me to prove that there is a grey side to black duct tape, it’s a fact.
Notice that Lou Smit, one of the people interviewing JR here and obviously familiar with both the evidence and this interview was the one who very clearly said there was one piece of tape on the blanket, the black duct tape from JBR’s mouth. Do you seriously believe that he, or anyone who had an opportunity to question JR would have either forgotten about, or be unaware of additional tape? That really is outrageous.

The duct tape depicted on this picture, you can see it actually on the blanket that was on the floor of the wine cellar. This is a photograph taken by the Boulder Police Department at the crime scene of the blanket, the white blanket lying on the floor of the wine cellar.
Adhering to this blanket is a piece of duct tape. John Ramsey stated that, when he went down to the basement and found his daughter, that she had duct tape on her mouth. He said he took it, and he took it off of her mouth. He also said that he took the ligature that was on her wrist and removed it, and then he took her upstairs.
-Lou Smit Deposition

The final area that seems to give you the impression that there was additional tape was the comment by JR about “tape on her legs” which I showed was transcribed as “tape on her lips,” elsewhere.

If you don’t believe there were transcription issues then I believe I have figured out what happened to the “additional,” “silver,” “gaffer’s” tape; JR put it in the coat that Jonbenet was wearing under the blanket in the wine cellar, and I guess they lost the coat.
And so, all anyone else ever saw was just one piece of black duct tape on top of the blanket. Mystery solved.

JOHN RAMSEY: I just remember just talking and, (Come on baby.̃ And I tried to untie her
arms; they were tied up behind her head.
LOU SMIT: Were they tied tight?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, very tight.
LOU SMIT: They were very tight?
JOHN RAMSEY: I noticed a spot in her coat, below the surface.
LOU SMIT: How do you know they were tied tight?
-JR interview, 1998

 

[DeeDee249]

JR also stated that the tape appeared to have been cut, NOT torn. So we know know the nearby Swiss Army knife, which was probably BR's, may have been used to cut it. Odd that an intruder would leave behind the knife (and the flashlight, and the tissue box and the pineapple and the bowl and...JB).

 

[BBB167893]

It has nothing to do with this murder.

Like he** it doesn't.

Ample examples of good people acting horrifically make perfectly clear the haunting nature of human character.

You'd THINK so, wouldn't you?

 

[WHITEFANG]

JR also stated that the tape appeared to have been cut, NOT torn. So we know know the nearby Swiss Army knife, which was probably BR's, may have been used to cut it. Odd that an intruder would leave behind the knife (and the flashlight, and the tissue box and the pineapple and the bowl and...JB).

What if the intruder was the same person who admitted taking a knife like that one beforehand? What if the intruder hid it where only she knew where to find it beforehand? What if the intruder worked in the house and left it there to set up P?

 

[MurriFlower]

What if the intruder was the same person who admitted taking a knife like that one beforehand? What if the intruder hid it where only she knew where to find it beforehand? What if the intruder worked in the house and left it there to set up P?

Hmm, apparently the knife found in the basement was small with a broken ornament. BR's had his name on it. I think they were two different knives.

JR said it was "like cut". When you tear the cloth tape, it tears evenly, just like fabric will, you know -- nick it and tear it straight across. It was later in an interview said to have been torn on both ends.

 

[BBB167893]

Wow, did you meet JBR's killer because I'm impressed with your characterization.

I had a feeling you would be, HOTYH. I had you in mind when I wrote it.

What you seem to be not really considering--EVEN SLIGHTLY--is that there are people who are REALLY NOT NORMAL.

What I'M not considering??? That's rich.

Usually, it is the result of childhood traumas that has left them emotionally or morally vacant and capable of conscience-free acts.

Absolutely right. And I plan to talk about that.

I suggest asking yourself: If a parent lovingly wrapped JBR, why the unnecessary roughness of the ransom note? Why is the ONLY explicit threat of physical violence to JBR, a six year old girl, a beheading threat?

That's where you went wrong, HOTYH. You assume that I have not ALREADY asked myself that question.

This isn't sexual predator.

Check.

This isn't boogeyman.

Check.

This isn't parental staging to look like a kidnap for ransom plot.

You got two out of three.

Nah, what you have here is a person who is embracing evil. Striving for evil. This type of personality is evident at the crime scene in both word and deed. RDI's repeated claims that these evil deeds didn't even happen can't be validated.

Oh, no?

In fact, there is the potential for even more evil deeds that we don't know about because of the time gap

That's one area you won't get an argument from me about.

But wait--my comfort zone's not rocked. I'm still comfortable.

I don't doubt it.

When I see JR or PR on TV I don't feel threatened; I see no demons, no con man, no child killer, no ransom note writer. I don't see a child abuser or a rage-filled pent up parent.

I'm sure you don't. That's sort of my point.

I think the reason for this is because I have been unable to witness anything convincing enough to support this view.

Assuming that "unable" is the right word for it, given your notoriously high standards, that comes as no great shock.

The events from before, during, and after the murder have really not provided a sufficient basis to support these ideas.

Just what would you consider a sufficient basis?

 

[BBB167893]

Well HOTYH, great stuff.

It had its moments.

The mission to open our eyes to the dark side of our nature, particularly those who excel in social graces, trumps all else.

I don't know about trumping all else. But can you honestly tell me that it's better not to bring attention to it?

It just isn't that unique.

Never said it was.

Forcing the events to fit it requires excursions off the deep end which he mistakenly equates with great mental effort and a splash of genius.

"Off the deep end?" Is it really?

He doesn't grasp the profound weaknesses of his "theory." All real and perceived faults are dismissed with the same broad brush.

The question is not "does this theory have faults?" I KNOW it does. The question is, "does Theory A have LESS faults than Theory B?"

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I suggest asking yourself: If a parent lovingly wrapped JBR, why the unnecessary roughness of the ransom note? Why is the ONLY explicit threat of physical violence to JBR, a six year old girl, a beheading threat?

That's where you went wrong, HOTYH. You assume that I have not ALREADY asked myself that question.

Lets see your answer then. While ur at it, please include explanation as to how beheading threat or foreign faction involvement helps a parentally staged kidnap for ransom hoax seem more believable.

I mean, you never believed it.