GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[Spice]

I haven't seen any comments of that nature here... aside from "unplugged".

I've seen people second-hand commenting on what others have dug up. And I can speculate, ask questions, wonder. I didn't accuse the parents of a crime. No-one here has. As I said, the majority of child crimes involve defective parenting, I don't think it's defamatory to ponder about whether it may have caused these kids to act this way.

Anyway, the owners of Creepypasta have given a very articulate statement to the press:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/o...f-horror-stories/story-fnjwmwrh-1226942516909

Ausgirl,

The comments are there. And they are a direct judgement to the 420 and "goth imagery" found on the Dad's instagram account. Also, this post was not directed at you, it was directed at the tone and commentary that was openly judging and stating that the parents were negligent based on the instagram which I maintain is cruel and bullying. They are reactive statements and judgments in response to his social media content not speculations about imagined home life. As I said earlier they are unproductive and take away from the discussion.

 

[Ausgirl]

Ooh okay then. Fair enough. :seeya:

 

[pjclover]

Honestly, I don't think any of us are capable of making a diagnosis of mental illness for either girl based on what limited information is available. It's just as irresponsible to do as judging the families is. In both cases, we're coming to really big conclusions based on very few (if any) facts.

The family lawyer's statements regarding mental illness for which she needs treatment are rather vague. Has she been diagnosed in the past? I believe we would have heard so by now, since many articles spoke of pending mental health evaluations. I read it more as an attempt to beg privacy and invoke sympathy for a client.

Look, all of us here have some sort of interest in crime, murder, maybe even the macabre. Some of us spend free time trying to piece together clues to unsolved crimes or look at photos of unidentified deceased people to match them to missing persons. I would guarantee that there are others who would view this as being dark or weird as well.

Others (like myself) are also interested in the paranormal. There are many, many aspects of that realm that people could interpret as being along the same lines. Now, do we have delusions where we think things are transporting in and taking control of us? No - I hope not. But, we're also not (just barely) twelve years old.

Although the crime was serious and both girls were aware of the consequences, twelve year old tween girls don't process things logically like we do. Kids believe in tooth fairies and Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. They believe that you'll be lucky if you find a four leaf clover, that you can wish on the big half of the wishbone when you pull it apart, or a penny in a fountain and birthday candles blown out.

The girls are in sixth grade, correct? Maybe fifth (did I read that somewhere)? It's not at all unusual for them to have fantasies that are in no way shape or form related to mental illness, even if they're dark in nature. It's also totally normal for adolescents to be drawn to things magical, mystical, paranormal. My group of friends loved reading "true" ghost tales, vampires (the pre-Twlight, actually scary kind), true crimes, and even dabbled in what we thought was Wicca... all prior to high school.

I can remember my parents having to take away a couple of books because they just scared me silly and I was getting too into the subject matter. I wasn't mentally ill, just an impressionable, emotional middle-class suburban girl.

We can't look at the statements and behaviors of a 12 year old and compare them to statements and behaviors of adults and say they must be mentally ill for thinking/feeling differently than we do - just like we wouldn't call an eight year old boy mentally ill for believing he could become a Power Ranger one day.

BTW: none of this is an excuse for the *actions* or an argument against trying them as adults.

 

[Spice]

I am not diagnosing, I am giving my professional opinion based on their actions and statements regarding why they did it and remorse. I can definitely opine on that and am qualified to do so. In fact anyone can opine based on their actions and statements, no professional degree needed to do so.

To your point, much more information would be needed to do a psychosocial on both girls to get a true picture. What I pointed out was her statements sound very much like classic delusions and paranoid delusions prominent in schizoaffective disorders. Especially the part about Slender Man killing her family and teleporting. I also see serious dissociative behaviors in her reasoning and a blatant lack of remorse on her part....in her own words. "It's weird that I don't feel any remorse" or something to that effect.

Again, I must reiterate that this is my opinion and NEVER did I diagnose and I used the words "likely" and "probably".

 

[Sonya610]

IMO this case has nothing at all to do with teenage angst either,teenage angst is not being able to deal with society,being angry and feeling misunderstood.

I mentioned teen angst with regard to the "Slenderman" comments making fun of this attempted murder.

Not about the crime itself but the "tweets" or whatever that the crime inspired AFTER THE FACT online.

 

[Ausgirl]

The part that had me wondering about mental issues aside from ongoing statements about Slendie killing her family, was "I don't feel remorse".

But as the story unfolds I think you're very right to speculate that it was a couple of otherwise sane kids who've become trapped in an obsessive belief.

I've seen a similar not-so-great attachment (omg, though, not to this level!!!) among kids I know, who are wonderful -- until they get together. For one example, I had to separate my daughter from a good friend who was going down a very dark path - fortunately this wasn't hard as my girl is pretty mature and could see the sense in it.

But if she wasn't, or I wasn't so concerned, perhaps it -could- have become something worse.

The friend, I must add, went on to hang herself, very sad indeed.

 

[pjclover]

Spice, my post was not directed towards you or any single post or poster! I'm certainly not asking you to defend your professional opinion or any personal ones, that's not what WS is about.

I don't want to split hairs over semantics and the difference between diagnosing and offering an opinion. There has been a lot of insinuation that there is mental illness at play, and I think it all goes back to looking for an explanation. In our society we don't have a hard time acknowledging that evil exists, but we do have a hard time believing it exists in twelve-year-old girls from middle America.

I would just caution any of us from jumping to conclusions without more evidence, that's all.

 

[Spice]

The part that had me wondering about mental issues aside from ongoing statements about Slendie killing her family, was "I don't feel remorse".

But as the story unfolds I think you're very right to speculate that it was a couple of otherwise sane kids who've become trapped in an obsessive belief.

I've seen a similar not-so-great attachment (omg, though, not to this level!!!) among kids I know, who are wonderful -- until they get together. For one example, I had to separate my daughter from a good friend who was going down a very dark path - fortunately this wasn't hard as my girl is pretty mature and could see the sense in it.

But if she wasn't, or I wasn't so concerned, perhaps it -could- have become something worse.

The friend, I must add, went on to hang herself, very sad indeed.

Her statement about not having remorse is the scariest part for me and also tells me something about what made her capable of it to begin with. How can you stab someone, your friend, 19 times and leave her for dead and feel nothing. That is truly truly disturbing and at the heart of this in my opinion.

Also the other girl, the one that held her down, told her to "lay down, you will lose less blood" because the victim was stumbling and couldn't see as she was trying to get herself to the road for help. She also added that she told her that because she "wanted her to die".

They both had a total lack of compassion and empathy. It is so so disturbing.

 

[Spice]

Spice, my post was not directed towards you or any single post or poster! I'm certainly not asking you to defend your professional opinion or any personal ones, that's not what WS is about.

I don't want to split hairs over semantics and the difference between diagnosing and offering an opinion. There has been a lot of insinuation that there is mental illness at play, and I think it all goes back to looking for an explanation. In our society we don't have a hard time acknowledging that evil exists, but we do have a hard time believing it exists in twelve-year-old girls from middle America.

I would just caution any of us from jumping to conclusions without more evidence, that's all.

See, the thing is, I don't believe in organic "evil." I believe in mental illness, whether predisposed genetically, created by environment, or both. Either way you slice it, It's STILL mental illness. I've seen it too many times. Show me a "bad seed"or an "evil" child or adult and I will be able to find the environmental and or genetic causes of their mental illness that shaped them.

No disrespect intended. I just don't believe in applying biblical black and white reasoning such as "evil "for the malignant actions of others. We as human beings are much more complex than that and so are our unique environments. It could be a personality disorder which cannot be fixed or maintained by medication or a mood disorder or one that is borne out of chemical imbalances in the brain and can be maintained by medication.

Mental illness is a much more realistic and tangible thing than "evil". Mental illness is the problem, evil is the symptom or manifestation of a sick mind or personality.

Also, these girls are too young to diagnose with any kind of personality disorder. This cannot be ethically done until they are over a certain age, as their brains are still literally developing until their 20's.

 

[pjclover]

See, the thing is, I don't believe in organic "evil." I believe in mental illness, whether predisposed genetically, created by environment, or both. Either way you slice it, It's STILL mental illness. I've seen it too many times. Show me a "bad seed"or an "evil" child or adult and I will be able to find the environmental and or genetic causes of their mental illness that shaped them.

No disrespect intended. I just don't believe in applying biblical black and white reasoning such as "evil "for the malignant actions of others. We as human beings are much more complex than that and so are our unique environments.

Mental illness is a much more realistic and tangible thing than "evil". Mental illness is the problem, evil is the symptom or manifestation of a sick mind.

No disrespect taken, as I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing at all.

Evil, as I understand and believe it, isn't a biblical or intangible concept. I'm not a Christian, and they certainly weren't the first ones to put the concept into print or conceptualize it.

Not to get too philosophical or off topic here, but like most humanists I believe in concepts of good and evil that are tangible, caused by human actions or inactions - environment, genetics, etc. I don't think that all evil can be explained by a chemical imbalance or cognitive issue.

 

[Ausgirl]

There are some remarkable new studies which show that people who experience lack of empathy tend to have under-developed regions of the brain which govern that emotion.

I'm vaguely thinking one of those studies involved children - but I might be wrong there. I'll try to dig it up, the general info on the subject is really interesting.

 

[ellemo]

I don't have the link handy, but I also recall reading that an inordinate amount of serial killers are adopted which would technically apply to Bundy (as well as David Berkowitz).
.

I have heard this many time, and it bugs me. Statistically it is true, but I don't think it is as big an issue that many (especially those selling books & magazines) make it to be

"Of the 500 estimated serial killers in U.S. history, 16 percent were adopted as children, while adoptees represent only 2 or 3 percent of the general population"
http://www.crimemagazine.com/adoption-forensics-connection-between-adoption-and-murder

I don't have a subscription and cannot read the entire article. But I would like to pointy out that 84% of serial killers are NOT adopted.

With, many of these killers, the adoption led to a bad home life -- like relatives taking in a child they didn't want care for.

People bring up Ted Bundy as an example, but I don't think that is a good one. He was raised by his grandparents, thinking his mother was his sister. He harbored ill feelings all his life toward his mom for this. Later on, his mother took on the parenting role and Ted was adopted by his stepfather, his last name was changed to Bundy. It has also been said that the grandfather may have been abusive.

So I think the average adopted child raised in a normal home by loving parents is unlikely to be a serial killer.:twocents:

 

[Spice]

There are some remarkable new studies which show that people who experience lack of empathy tend to have under-developed regions of the brain which govern that emotion.

I'm vaguely thinking one of those studies involved children - but I might be wrong there. I'll try to dig it up, the general info on the subject is really interesting.

You are exactly right. It is the area that controls emotions and impulses. It is smaller in people with anti social personality disorder. I believe it is the same area that is found to shrink after trauma in some people that suffer from PTSD as well. It's about volume in the frontal gyrus. It is totally fascinating. Our brains are incredibly complex. Bio of the Brain and Behavior was the hardest class I ever took and ultimately made me want to wear a helmet everywhere.

 

[Zuri]

Just getting caught up to speed and many thanks for the links provided. I have never heard of Slenderman, rotten.com, creepypasta et al. I was trying to think back to being 12 which was 45 years ago and i was in 6th grade. I did not read murder mysteries and the only "fantasy" type show I sneakily watched was "Dark Shadows" on my little black and white TV. My mother did not approve!

IMO, there seems to be a disconnect or some kind of maladjustment for 12 year olds to be so obsessed with a fictional figure to act on those fantasies. I have a hard time believing that these 2 girls displayed normal 12 year old behavior all the time. It will be interesting to hear what teachers and classmates have to say, if anything. In school,For example, if any of their fictional writings centered around this type of fantasy world and what the teachers comments were.

From what I gathered, those of you who have kids this age and know about Slenderman, they realize it is a fictional character and accept it as being just that. Normal. I wonder why these 2 girls took it so far as to believe it was real and they had to act on it. Why did they get so absorbed in make believe or fantasy? An escape? Independent of each other, would these girls have acted on it? What made them think that this was ok or acceptable behavior? Most 12 year olds know right from wrong. How did they not know murder is not entertainment?

The ripple effect from their senseless act is going to have far reaching ramifications. My heart goes out to their victim and her family. I hope they get the help they are going to need. The families of these two girls are going to need help as well as the classmates of these girls. This is just awful. JMV

 

[Ausgirl]

Here's a great article on psychopathy and empathy and brain imaging, etc, from a doctor working with a group who've spent two decades studying it all:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...nside-the-mind-psychopath-empathic-not-always

Really worth a read, just for general interest. The author makes it all very approachable for us laypersons.

 

[Ausgirl]

rsbm:

and ultimately made me want to wear a helmet everywhere.

I have sometimes pondered wearing one too. Only mine would be tinfoil.

 

[Zuri]

There are some remarkable new studies which show that people who experience lack of empathy tend to have under-developed regions of the brain which govern that emotion.

I'm vaguely thinking one of those studies involved children - but I might be wrong there. I'll try to dig it up, the general info on the subject is really interesting.

Thanks for this as I hope you can dig it up. It would be an interesting read. This is why I am on the fence about these girls being charged as adults. I keep thinking "12?" and I can't wrap my head around this.

 

[Sonya610]

Her statement about not having remorse is the scariest part for me and also tells me something about what made her capable of it to begin with. How can you stab someone, your friend, 19 times and leave her for dead and feel nothing. That is truly truly disturbing and at the heart of this in my opinion.

Also the other girl, the one that held her down, told her to "lay down, you will lose less blood" because the victim was stumbling and couldn't see as she was trying to get herself to the road for help. She also added that she told her that because she "wanted her to die".

They both had a total lack of compassion and empathy. It is so so disturbing.

The article I read said one of the girls "freaked out" in the park bathroom and had to be calmed down.
And when they lured the girl into the woods, the stabber said to the accomplice "Tell me to do it" and the girl apparently did.

They KNEW what they were doing was very wrong and they worried about it, yet they managed to do it anyway after debating the situation.


Sort of like sociopaths playing in a doll house but I don't think it was insanity.

 

[Spice]

The article I read said one of the girls "freaked out" in the park bathroom and had to be calmed down.
And when they lured the girl into the woods, the stabber said to the accomplice "Tell me to do it" and the girl apparently did.

They KNEW what they were doing was very wrong and they worried about it, yet they managed to do it anyway after debating the situation.


Sort of like sociopaths playing in a doll house but I don't think it was insanity.

Absolutely. It's chilling. We have to remember that a person can know what they are doing is wrong and still be mentally ill. They knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[Ausgirl]

So I think the average adopted child raised in a normal home by loving parents is unlikely to be a serial killer.:twocents:

Of the many serial killers and other psychopaths I've read about, the vast majority seem to have experienced a profound lack of nurturing in early childhood (Charles Manson's a great example), as well as generally terrible and spotty parenting later on.

I am cautious with some of these studies of late, as there's several killers (like Ed Kemper and Derek Percy) who blamed overbearing mothers for their criminal behaviours and mental issues. But, looking into those family dynamics a little more closely, it seemed the parents (for all their other faults) were trying to protect their sons against harming others. Okay, they went about it in stupid ways which only exacerbated the problems, but see the skew happening? If the kids weren't acting like little monsters to begin with, the parents might not have locked them in the cellar at night or isolated them socially. And I think the killers know that. But they -always- blame the mother for being too controlling. I think it's a bit of a dodge, for those two particular guys.

This said, I think it's less to do with adoption and more to do with a collection of factors that are common for many but also very individual.

Like, they're all psychotic cakes, and while they don't all share all of the same ingredients, they do share all the ones that make them cakes.

Can you tell it's very late here? Cakes. :facepalm: