GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #2

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  • #261
But there's not a pile of websites out there trying to convince teenagers that Santa is a/ cool and b/real. I think the dynamic there is a vastly different thing, because there's a crowd involved, who do their best to make the fantasy seem "real" because that's the whole point of the "ARG" - alternate 'reality' game.

I don't think, personally, that this all had *nothing* to do with it. It was likely, IMO, a part of that 'perfect storm' of which the three's-a-crowd dynamic was the basis.

Some really good posts here, thanks for them! Lots of food for thought.
That may be, but the poster I was responding to made it sound like 12 is too young to distinguish fantasy from reality. Now on the flip side, I have a good friend whose daughter is the same age as mine, but is autistic. She still believes in the Easter Bunny.
 
  • #262
Hi folks,

My apologies for a long post, I hope it will be worth the read.

As a father of a girl around this age in particular, this event had a profound impact on me. A compelling need to know "why" led me to join this forum. My research is taken from the official criminal complaint and other public records.

Not much has been presented about the family life of AW. In particular, it appears that she was living alone with her father, who divorced her mother last year. Her older brother and sister are actually step-siblings from a previous marriage that ended in 1999, and as we have read, they were not living at the home until 2 days prior to the event. The divorce would have been in the same year that AW transitioned from elementary to middle school. We have no idea what her relationship with her father was like, but this could have left her very isolated and vulnerable, particularly at her age.

Regarding MG's family, much has been said about the gothic imagery that pervades the home and lifestyle. While I absolutely don't think that is a cause, I so wonder if it MG's parents realized that MG's interest in the macabre was NOT the same as theirs, a fun, tongue-in-cheek lifestyle thing. As a result, what to other parents may have been alarming may have been considered "a chip off the old block" to them. To be sure, I believe them to be loving devoted parents, with a daughter with a very unusual and unsuspected susceptibility they could not have guessed at.

According to school class lists, MG and PL attended the same elementary school, but AW was elsewhere. Although MG and AW lived fairly close by, its possible they didn't know each other until they started taking the bus for middle school. This means that their relationship only began at middle school, whereas the relationship between MG and PL was long-standing.

While there have been claims that there were "no red flags", I don't think that is true, in the case of MG at least. There is video of a classmate discussing the sledgehammer incident which has not been refuted, an alleged ongoing interest with suicide and later, Slender Man "he's coming to get us all". Other classmates described her as "odd" and "aloof". Of course, these incidents and behavior cannot be used to predict potential deadly violence, but with hindsight, they are concerning.

It isn't difficult to discover the identity of the victim - I'm not going to describe how. Suffice it to say that from the descriptions of others and her online presence, she comes across as a happy, normal and well-liked girl who enjoys the kind of things that girls of her age would be expected to enjoy, and is engaged with the community.

So we have AW, new to middle school, in a potentially isolated home situation and perhaps craving a best friend, MG, whose behavior has been noted to be increasingly odd (since 4th grade), and PL, who has none of these issues. The perfect storm comes when MG learns of CreepyPasta and Slender Man from AW, and it greatly accelerates an existing decline in the mental health of MG, and the grip on reality of AW. MG's parents see this as harmless, while it isn't clear if AW's parents are aware about the obsession. Her brother appears to be but did not guess what it would lead to.

Why target the best friend, PL? I absolutely agree with a poster above that PL very likely became extremely concerned about the change in her friend, and spoke to her about those concerns. This perceived attack on the fantasy world of MG (and by association Slender Man) led her to the belief that killing PL was necessary. A simpler answer may be that PL was the only one they could persuade to accompany them somewhere where she could be killed.

On the subject of PL, there were, according to the suspects' statements, several occasions when she could have run away as it had become obvious that the other two meant to harm her. The fact that she also yelled "I hate you! I trusted you!" suggests that she was had known about the attack, but had been told - perhaps - that it was some kind of joke designed to freak AW out.

The question is: where did the idea of killing come from? Was it a psychopathic response to a perceived attack from one considered a close friend (PL), or was there outside agency?

If you search for "slender man dream analysis", the results make extremely troubling reading. There are a large number of questions posted to various forums by kids who have had Slender Man dreams. Unfortunately, many of these forums have a requirement that answers are to be made as if Slender man and associated elements are true - this is a key tenet of the Slender man genre. The Slender Man is highly immersive and it is VERY difficult, even for an unsuspecting adult, to see that it is in effect an ongoing role-playing game, even in the forums where questions are asked and responded to in character.

It is totally believable that the responses could be taken literally. In some cases, responders have claimed to be Slender Man himself. And there is evidence from other forums (such as 4chan) that groups of individuals have actively been spoofing Slender Man forum posters for "fun".

It has been claimed that some elements of the girls' stories are not found anywhere within the Slender Man "mythos" (core stories). However, the Slender Man mansion (with children living in it), "killers" and "proxies" can be found in stories submitted to fanfiction.net. These stories are not part of the core Slender Man "mythos", and do contain suggestions about having to kill to prove one's worthiness. "Slender Sickness" also is referenced in many places.

Slender Man is strongly correlated to the forest (any forest) into which he lures children. The largest in Wisconsin is Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest to the north, which is where the girls said they were planning to go.

I think the key concern is that while yes, kids of that age should know right from wrong, they are dealing with highly immersive and *INTERACTIVE* media that never used to exist. Grimm's Fairy Tales didn't answer questions or give advice. And it only takes one sicko who wonders how far he could push a vulnerable user to create a disastrous outcome.

Comparing the statements of the two suspects, AW's is detailed, while MG's is very brief. They do not agree, and one wonders if MG truly recalls what happened. In some cases, it almost sounds like AW told her what had happened after the attack.

I may be totally wrong (and frequently am) but I don't think this event has a simple explanation, but is an unfortunate concatenation of circumstances involving a medium and genre that until recently, parents did not know existed. One way or another, those girls are going to be out of circulation for a long time. I do hope, however, that due diligence is done in determining the real causes and educating parents, teachers, politicians and law enforcers appropriately.

I also hope never to see an automatic appearance of children like that in an adult court which in addition to publicizing their names and faces across the world, has also thoughtlessly ruined the lives of their parents and families by providing their identities also.

Final thought: I've read reports from attorneys who say that "kid-on-kid" attacks like this are NOT uncommon. However, if they go through the juvenile court system from the get-go, they are never known about beyond the locality in which they occur.
 
  • #263
:wagon: ICS!!
 
  • #264
:welcome: ICS

Excellent first post. Thanks so much for joining and sharing your thoughts.
 
  • #265
Disagree. I have a daughter who only turned 13 2 months ago. She is an advanced reader. As much as I don't like it, she was well into the Young Adult reading section at Barnes & Noble over a year ago. Series like "The Hunger Games" and "Divergent" are just two of the series example I can think of offhand that she's into. Yes she is still a child, but she is fully capable of understanding that they are fantasy, not reality. A normal child who isn't developmentally handicapped can understand this. She stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny at age 7.

Since 7 is still a young child imo, I'm sad to hear your child stopped believing in Santa Clause and the Easter bunny..... imoo.
 
  • #266
  • #267
Since 7 is still a young child imo, I'm sad to hear your child stopped believing in Santa Clause and the Easter bunny..... imoo.
But according to previous posters, that is the age of knowing right from wrong. I was more saddened when she stopped believing in the Tooth Fairy.
 
  • #268
Thanks for the welcomes above! Greatly appreciated.

If anyone hasn't read the criminal complaint, its worth a read of AW's statement before asking yourself why PL didn't run away during the several opportunities she apparently had. I think she thought herself the "victim" in some kind of macabre sacrifice "game" that MG or had told her they were going to play, but that no actual harm would come to her. Hence: "I hate you! I trusted you!" (not to actually stab her). Not sure if PL's statement will ever become public knowledge.
 
  • #269
Hi ICS and let me add to the welcomes. Thanks for your thoughtful post, nothing much there to argue with as far I'm concerned.
 
  • #270
Thanks Ausgirl :-)

I just came across this YouTube video recorded by an anthropologist, regarding the Slender Man myth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXHc0ImNd2w

A point he makes that is, IMO, extremely important is that Slender Man is a myth (like ghosts, vampires) as opposed to a character (like Dracula), and is always intentionally ill-defined. He represents an Internet Bogeyman, more of an always-lurking threat whose motivations and details are not known, except that he goes after children.

As a result, people have created a great many of their own stories around Slender Man, inserting their own themes and speaking perhaps to their needs (albeit unconsciously). In the case of the 2 suspects, I believe that the need was peer "acceptance", and to get that, they would need to prove that Slender Man really exists.

It seems like the 2 girls had different motivations for becoming proxies. MG wanted to join Slender Man. "...to climb into Slender Man's realm, a user must kill someone." The term "user" as opposed to "person" is interesting here. It suggests someone using a computer to participate in an online activity. It also suggests that the idea came from that online activity, perhaps made deliberately by some twisted individual.

For AW, I believe she sought the acceptance of MG and perhaps her peers. Summoning the Slender Man would provide both by allowing them to join Slender Man, and also show that he exists.

I believe that in both girls there was some degree of internal, final struggle to not do this, but they were not able to overcome the forces that had propelled them to that point.
 
  • #271
In the case of the 2 suspects, I believe that the need was peer "acceptance", and to get that, they would need to prove that Slender Man really exists.

It seems like the 2 girls had different motivations for becoming proxies. MG wanted to join Slender Man. "...to climb into Slender Man's realm, a user must kill someone." The term "user" as opposed to "person" is interesting here. It suggests someone using a computer to participate in an online activity. It also suggests that the idea came from that online activity, perhaps made deliberately by some twisted individual.

For AW, I believe she sought the acceptance of MG and perhaps her peers. Summoning the Slender Man would provide both by allowing them to join Slender Man, and also show that he exists.

I believe that in both girls there was some degree of internal, final struggle to not do this, but they were not able to overcome the forces that had propelled them to that point.

Cheers for the video, really interesting stuff.

And I'm glad to see another voice for the possibility of outside/online influence (direct and/or indirect). I went down the rabbit-hole of TwelveTribe videos and blogs for a while, and there's certainly a feeling of not quite 'getting it' if you don't follow closely, know who's who, not in the 'loop'. Plus proxies, plus killing, plus a lot of stark realism that is shored up by vlog followers' comments. If there was someone laffing it up, looking for 'noobs' to suck in, that'd be a great place/ARG to focus on.

Just a different POV on AW and 'acceptance' - she may also have been focussed on cutting MG out of the 'pack' so they could have more time together. Drawing MG (and -not- PL) in to the Slendy thing would have certainly helped that along, if this was so. In the relationships I've experienced of this nature, there's little concern with 'fitting in' anywhere; in fact it's quite the opposite, with one or both of the duo making sure they're apart from their peers and quite isolated.

Very good call re "user", good spot.

And yes, I agree on the hesitancy, both describe several bouts of it prior to the stabbing.
 
  • #272
Thanks for the welcomes above! Greatly appreciated.

If anyone hasn't read the criminal complaint, its worth a read of AW's statement before asking yourself why PL didn't run away during the several opportunities she apparently had. I think she thought herself the "victim" in some kind of macabre sacrifice "game" that MG or had told her they were going to play, but that no actual harm would come to her. Hence: "I hate you! I trusted you!" (not to actually stab her). Not sure if PL's statement will ever become public knowledge.

You mentioned "Slender Sickness" I believe that MG stated that she was afflicted with "Slender Sickness" in the police report. Is it part of the Mythos? Or the fan fiction that you mentioned?
 
  • #273
Just a different POV on AW and 'acceptance' - she may also have been focussed on cutting MG out of the 'pack' so they could have more time together. Drawing MG (and -not- PL) in to the Slendy thing would have certainly helped that along, if this was so. In the relationships I've experienced of this nature, there's little concern with 'fitting in' anywhere; in fact it's quite the opposite, with one or both of the duo making sure they're apart from their peers and quite isolated.

Hmmm - good thought. I'd imagined that MG was already somewhat isolated, but rethinking she may have been less so than I thought. PL certainly seems to have been in the 'pack', as you say. Not sure that PL would have necessarily taken an interest in Slender Man anyway given the other interests she apparently has, so this would have been an ideal topic to draw MG away from PL.

I just spoke with my 18-year old son in the UK. He knew all about Slender Man, and described it as having evolved into a 'cult'. I can see I'm going to be digging into how cults start now ;-)

On 4chan, there is discussion of Slender Man forums/blogs and threads on same "disappearing" on a daily basis, which I thought noteworthy. Presumably, admins are finding that there are indeed discussions that could associate their users or themselves (directly or indirectly) with the girls' actions.

A theme I've found is that "Slender Man really exists if you believe he exists" and the more obsessive your belief, the "more he exists". To "rid" yourself of Slender Man one has to not believe in him.

There seems to be both elements of psychopathy (which enabled the premeditation and the actual killing attempt) as well as a shared psychosis. The psychopathy element would be MG - I do wonder if AW ACTUALLY believed MG was serious or thought that she was participating in a macabre secret game. MG must have exerted a very powerful influence on her, sufficient to overcome her remaining qualms. Her brother's comment about highly intelligent but no common sense would bear this out.

Talking of AW's brother, its interesting that he said she can't tell "dreams from reality". Not fiction, or myth or fantasy, but dreams. I wonder if AW had been having Slender Man dreams as MG apparently had?
 
  • #274
You mentioned "Slender Sickness" I believe that MG stated that she was afflicted with "Slender Sickness" in the police report. Is it part of the Mythos? Or the fan fiction that you mentioned?

I believe it is part of the mythos. MG mentioned that Slender Man emits radiation that makes people sick, and this is mentioned in the description as "Sigma Radiation":

Slender Sickness

I also found various references to sharp tendrils, but these seem to be in the fan fiction. I think these girls were reading EVERYTHING regardless of whether it was in the mythos or external. And the more they read, the more they believed, maybe.
 
  • #275
The Sickness is the name given to an apparent sickness consisting mostly of coughing fits and coughing up blood, along with occasional nausea, paranoia, vomitting, and extreme exhaustion due to an encounter and being stalked by the Slender Man. Many have also had bloody noses, fever, and sometimes amnesia. It is experienced mostly by those stalked by Slender Man, though occasionally it seems to appear in suspected proxies, such as Tim and Brian.

http://theslenderman.wikia.com/wiki/The_Sickness

More discussion: http://theslenderman.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:46538
 
  • #276
I can see I'm going to be digging into how cults start now ;-)

That's some scary (and fascinating) territory. Also a pet field of study of mine. I almost started a cult myself in the 90's. No kidding. And not on purpose, but it was surely rolling that way. I (quite quickly) made the conscious decision to back right away from that situation, but it gave me a great insight into how and why some people might embrace the sort of 'leadership' offered by cults.

There's an unbelievable amount of people in the world who are willing to give their power away. Everything I thought I knew about cults and how they form was turned on its head, through that experience. Otherwise sane, rational, ordinary people can not only be drawn in, they can create the opportunity for the cult to come about in the first place. Add a psychopathic narcissist, and Charlie's your uncle.

Looking about as far as I'm willing to look into the various hardcore Slenderman sites, I don't see makings of that kind of cult. There's no central leadership, and while there's a continual reinforcement of the idea that Slenderman is real it's also well understood (by the majority of participants) that it's all an ARG/ARE.

I can see this being problematic for some people, however. I can also see it being a great place for those people to be fooled/conned/pranked/manipulated.
 
  • #277
Looking about as far as I'm willing to look into the various hardcore Slenderman sites, I don't see makings of that kind of cult. There's no central leadership, and while there's a continual reinforcement of the idea that Slenderman is real it's also well understood (by the majority of participants) that it's all an ARG/ARE.

Agreed. I find the forums with the interactive discussions/comments much more troublesome. There certainly seems to be an enormous willingness to suspend disbelief in a group of users containing many children.

Peoples' (real) Slender Man dreams/nightmares seem to have become part of the legend. Google "Slender Man dreams" to see what I mean. If people then experience Slender Man dreams, this gives legitimacy to the belief that Slender Man is real. Particularly because these dreams will have content that is personal to the dreamer's world intertwined with the Slender Man component.

And once one starts worrying about Slender Man dreams, perhaps one has more of them...? Could it seem necessary to do something in the real world to appease/get rid of Slender Man in the dream world? There are certainly threads in which advice is given to dreamers in response to the content of their dreams.

AW's brother talked of dreams in describing his sister: "...wish she could tell dreams from reality...". I thought the term "dreams" was interesting rather than "myth", "story", "legend", etc. I wonder if she'd mentioned dreams to him?

MG also had dreams as recorded some detail in her testimony.

Hmmm.
 
  • #278
I spent some time looking into how these Slender Man stories originated and the claims that the suspects did/did not get their notions from them.

I didn't realize that in and of itself, "Slender Man" is simply an idea of a menacing entity, to whom a few features and attributes are attached. His motivations and what he does "when he gets you" are not given... like the bogeyman. Which makes him the more terrifying because there is then no "defense" from him. This baseline information is the "mythos".

From this came a variety of "official" ARGs such as Marble Hornets (the first), EverymanHYBRID, Tribe Twelve and so on. Generalized aspects of these "official" offerings are sometimes fed back into the core mythos. Sometimes there are crossovers between official stories.

It doesn't take too long to get through these (unless you're trying to figure out various puzzles and clues), so if you wanted more, you'd perhaps be drawn to the fan fiction - very specific stories involving Slender Man and an evolving set of additional characters.

On "fanfiction.net" (and other sites) there are a set of short stories that involve a group of characters known as the "CreepyPastas", or the "CreepyPasta Gang". The stories frequently involve (killer) characters such as "Jeff the Killer", "Smile Dog", "Eyeless Jack", each of whom has a common attribute: they have killed people. Example: Jeff the Killer.

In the fan fiction stories, joining Slender Man is frequently the goal of the story, and seen as desirable to the writer. Slender Man's behavior is very different: he talks and interacts physically; he even has an office. There is a great sense of him judging the worth of the existing CreepyPasta members, and potential new ones who through some initial dark deed qualify to become proxies. The "killer" seems to be a proxy who has further "proven" their worth and becomes an official CreepyPasta.

I think its the fan fiction stories and the "CreepyPasta Gang" that are being referenced as influences in the suspects' statements. They depict a clear (!!) path to joining Slender Man. Many younger writers/commenters seem to regard Slender Man with affection/reverence ("Slendy", "The Slender", etc).

I think the above is borne out in the suspects' statements:

- "Slender Man is the leader of the CreepyPasta [gang]. Slender Man is at the top of the triangle. Just below Slender Man is the killer and below the killer is the proxy" (AW)

- "In order to be a proxy you need to kill a person. This would show your dedication to Slender Man" (AW)

- W stated she felt she had to physically kill someone (Detective M. Trussoni during AW questioning)

- "It seemed necessary" (MG on asking why they were going to stab PL)

The point of writing the foregoing is because neither the media nor genre fans have done so, instead stating the motivation claimed by the suspects does not exist. It does. That obviously does NOT make what they did right, but we're not talking about normal behavior.
 
  • #279
Please don't sleuth the families. They are considered victims here.

Thanks!


Salem
 
  • #280
Please don't sleuth the families. They are considered victims here.

Thanks!

Point respectfully taken. Thanks!
 
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