AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #28

[Jax49]

You know, we don't know if another weapon like a knife was used either. I remember that LE said in one of the earliest threads that it was a violent scene.

I remember early on it was mentioned counseling would be provided for first responders. moo

 

[ilovechili]

It is possible that this person knocked first, possibly unarmed. Maybe James refused to open the door. Maybe the guy gets angry and gets his gun from his car. We just don't know. I think many people are under the impression that this person just came and kicked in the door, but the fact that James was at the door makes me believe that there was at least some sort of exchange first.

This is a very good point.

I have moments where I think possibly there was company. Maybe Jim had a friend over for the Sunday night football game. Maybe all day, who knows. I do know the Packers did not play but still the NFL was on. Something went wrong, hotheaded friend. Jim kicks him out and acts like many would as the big man of his own house, the guy is out of control, loud, mad, whatever. The punk or "friend" (could be anyone they know that stopped by of any age at any time or invited) leaves and goes home and comes back with a gun or goes to his car in the driveway and gets one. So it was somewhat expected but not really--but James had a moment but not long to see it coming, or radar was already up, he sees lights coming back into driveway if perp left and came back--yells to Denise (who may be awake due to the argument or always was) she grabs the phone, yells to wake up Jayme (who also could be awake due to a prior loud argument), as Jim is rushing to the door to stop the guy, In other words, Jim watches to see that the guy leaves, porch light on, etc. He sees him coming back from his parked car madder than a hornet with a gun.

Then, simultaneous immediate pandemonium in the house. We do know now that all 3 Closses were home at 10 and Denise talked to her sister. However, we have also learned LE practices omission, no one ever said they were the only people there or maybe the person stopped by after that call. A few more hours of drinking (possibly) and company goes off like a rocket. (One can think of many variations of this entire scenario). He reacts on major anger at Jim, never stops to think, when Jim won't let him in or tries not to, if he already was not, he goes over the top. He kills Jim and then he is a known person/friend and realizes OMG Denise and Jayme are standing there and one has a phone. He shoots Denise because she has the phone and yet he is coming to the loss of that rage and realizing what he has done and 911 has been called and he just cannot do that to Jayme and knows them all. He takes her and skedaddles.

I also think many who do not do drugs (and i mean something like meth) are not always onto the fact that their buddies maybe do or relatives or acquaintances. Just like we here do not think like an evil murdering kidnapper because we cannot conceive of doing such a thing and do not think like that, I feel it is the same with drugs and other things. We do not understand the behavior, do not expect it and often do not see it. And even some that do know that perhaps a buddy does so, practice what so many do, as long as their habits do not affect me, they think, it is none of my business and I do not care what they do but they do not realize what a time bomb they may be around....

Just another of my 10,000 (major exaggeration lol but quite a few) possible scenarios.... Sigh... Yet this frustration is nothing like the family is going through and Jayme, I pray for a Christmas miracle.

 

[Deerrun]

Could agree with 90 percent... but if Fitzgerald is saying perp only 5 ft in house that’s the length of a person.. he had 4forensics teams .. there fairly certain 1-2 steps ... you can’t get to bathroom .. or other room... I like most of what u said.. just think with splatter etc.. shooter didn’t gopast much in doorway..?

I'm thinking 5 steps (not feet) even still its probably a few more steps than 5 to the bathroom. This is still my theory though but I am keeping an open mind. I don't think it was about drugs or money/casino or somebody mad at one of them. I think someone became infatuated with Jayme and wanted her at all costs. They were homebodies, especially Jim. I think they cared for their daughter well and this is very sad. I hope this is an ending to this for everyone's sake (specially Jayme)

My big thing I continually come back to is where James was and even where the family was that day and in fact the past few days.

It seems to me James' whereabouts are avoided entirely and never confirmed in a definite manner and certainly not by time frame. We have a lot of the time frame regarding Jayme and Denise at least with regard to the party.

Another reason it bothers me is just say Denise and Jayme stopped at Dairy Queen on the way home or even on the way to the party, grabbing a cake for her sister's grandchild because it is on her way and they seem like that type of family, to help the others host or throw a party. Please note, I know nothing about the DQ, I am just using it as an example just as I could use Kwik Trip or the grocery store, the Dollar Store or McDonald's....

Now let's just say I was in the same place with my similar aged daughter if I had one about five minutes ahead of Denise and Jayme. I never even saw them nor was I in the business at the same exact time. But now let's say a man approached and talked to my daughter that made me feel quite uncomfortable even though he did nothing really wrong but maybe was just a bit odd. Maybe it is a stranger or maybe the clerk seems to know him so we dismiss it even more. We leave, go home, nothing happened and we are safe and it leaves the memory as unimportant. For no reason would we connect or relate this to Denise and Jayme as at no point in the investigation have ever been told they were even in that business.

Now fast forward at least 24 hours and longer probably for many people, or people not from the area before we hear about this. And we know the Amber Alert took some time. Yet it is never said Jim stopped here, Jayme and Denise stopped there, just turn in any tips. Many people do not want to bother if they think their tip may be silly, others know nothing is private and maybe do not want to appear to be a sycophant or a fool, etc. AND they may dismiss it as not important OR because again, they have no idea it could relate, they do not report it. In the beginning my initial guess for a long time was the party was in Rusk County over near maybe Denise's or James' family members or even elsewhere. If I recall correctly, we did not even know for which side.

If one wants to jog someone's memory OR to have them realize what they basically forgot about may have been important it would help to hear they stopped at this business, etc. when one has a missing child. No area, no vehicle, no direction traveled, no timeline. It is just odd to me.

That is one example of many I could think of where the people may not have seen the victims nor even been in the place anywhere at all near the same time as the victims but it could be significant, etc. It could be a car you passed, a couple arguing in the parking lot that you would not have connected to anything, again an odd man at the DQ, etc.

To me, the longer that information is not shared, the less chance someone will have a fresh memory on what day it was, or how exactly it went, etc. I mean just look at the neighbors with the gunshots and that was just hours later but apparently, they were wrong with their memory and account...

This is one of my biggest hang ups. I cannot come up with too many reasons not to share this or how it could negatively affect the case and it very well could have or still could help it. All that I can figure is it plays in and they do know something big we do not know and Lord, I hope so.

Friday was a day off school, where was Jayme? What did the family do Saturday?

I know some will say it was said James was at work but that point has never quite been cemented nor solidified. We also heard the sheriff say he was unsure about Jayme's phone and we later found out it was plugged in in the kitchen. I do not think that was missed in the initial investigation.

This in no way is a knock or insult of law enforcement; I am simply saying this information is pretty vague and I can only figure it is intentional and even perhaps for a very good reason. I just know I am not very familiar with Rusk County for instance but spent days trying to think of who lived over there that I could think of, what businesses existed, etc. and who may have seen something strange.

It is not any duty of law enforcement to inform the public of an investigation and there are really important reasons they do not and I get that. Which, to me, is why this information not being provided seems significant.

Does anyone else feel this way and understand what I mean? It is a point I cannot get past and a big one to me.

Sorry for the very longwinded post. I am fairly confident I broke no rules this time

I almost think LE really doesn't want or need tips, they seem to be half-assed about asking for them. Same thing about the cars they were searching for. I believe they found them but they do not want to say anything. They don't seem to be trying to engage the public, specially since there is still so much public interest. I think it's because they already have a POI but they don't have the physical evidence to make an arrest that will stick. I remember the Sheriff saying "When we find Jayme, we find the killer" makes since that they are looking for DNA that will 100% convict and unfortunately are losing hope she will be found alive.

 

[Mistermagoo]

Possible, but I don't think the door had a window. If he saw lights he would likely have looked out the window.

https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/8o3LjaitEhpA6x0UluXSdA/o.jpg

 

[Rosiebones]

https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/8o3LjaitEhpA6x0UluXSdA/o.jpg

Those pictures show how close the windows are to the sidewalk and approach to the house. It seems impossible that JC would go to the door having seen the perp/perps up that close and not recognized them or have seen a gun and still have gone to the door. If he knew the door was unlocked he may have gone to lock it and if it was already locked, it makes sense that he would get Jayme and Denise into a back room and call 911.

 

[Writestuff]

Kicking down a door is not easy.

A successful breach requires the wooden doorframe to break apart on impact.
It’s not like on TV where the perp or LE kicks open a door in one swift cool move.
You want to check the hinges first and see which way a door swings open.
You want to check for bolts on the upper half that might indicate the presence of a steel rod or 2-by-4-inch wood jamb.
If it swings open toward you, kicking it down is next to impossible.
If it swings out, you’ll want to kick where the keyhole is mounted for the easiest possible clean kick.
You want to use a front kick, driving your heel of your foot into the door to avoid injury.

Not everyone knows how to properly kick a door open.

Who does know how? LE, Military, DEA, firefighters, seasoned criminals, etc.

When researching for my first book, Burn Out, I asked my firefighter hubby a dozen questions about gaining entry to residences and kicking in doors. I guess that’s why this one thing is standing out in my mind.

WHY kick a door open to gain entry?

My big question is – was the door locked and closed when the perp kicked the door in? OR did they knock first, wait until someone opened the door, maybe JC saw who the person was or saw the gun and tried to close the door on them and THEN the perp kicked it open wider????

Let’s suppose the door was locked and the perp wanted to break in. Why not use other methods to gain entry? Pick the lock? Try to open another door? Or window?

IMO - Kicking open a door shows aggression. Experience. Quick - in and out. Don’t care that it makes noise and wakes everyone up. That person has a purpose. It’s planned and dutifully executed with military precision. Gain entry. Eliminate targets. Grab intended target and go. No witnesses.

edit: grammar

 

[Megnut]

Or maybe what he saw, if he looked out, didn't look threatening. Yet.

JMO

 

[Rubiconbob]

I'm thinking 5 steps (not feet) even still its probably a few more steps than 5 to the bathroom. This is still my theory though but I am keeping an open mind. I don't think it was about drugs or money/casino or somebody mad at one of them. I think someone became infatuated with Jayme and wanted her at all costs. They were homebodies, especially Jim. I think they cared for their daughter well and this is very sad. I hope this is an ending to this for everyone's sake (specially Jayme)

I almost think LE really doesn't want or need tips, they seem to be half-assed about asking for them. Same thing about the cars they were searching for. I believe they found them but they do not want to say anything. They don't seem to be trying to engage the public, specially since there is still so much public interest. I think it's because they already have a POI but they don't have the physical evidence to make an arrest that will stick. I remember the Sheriff saying "When we find Jayme, we find the killer" makes since that they are looking for DNA that will 100% convict and unfortunately are losing hope she will be found alive.

Agree with that. The car indifference is bizarre/telling.. take 5 seconds to say black suv was guy down street going to get something... they just said orange car eh ... black suv not really focused..??

James / Denise toxicology..no mention..

If you’ve got kicked in door and possibly bullets through said door.. how do you not have shoe or boot basics.. and 2/3 inch window in height.

If there’s even remote chance she’s still alive .. would think they would increase reward..although if 50k won’t get u to turn in perp doubt 100k would either.

 

[Rosiebones]

https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/8o3LjaitEhpA6x0UluXSdA/o.jpg

I have been sitting here looking at the front of that house, the windows, the small front porch and imagining in the dark of night what transpired, I picture JC inside looking out the living room windows and if he had any suspicion of what he was seeing why did he go to the door. Also, if he was in the living room watching TV or at least with the light on the perp/perps could see him really well and would know DC was or wasn't there with him.
I wonder if one of the people was a woman who was there to take Jayme while the man took out JC and DC.

 

[Mistermagoo]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/N2P0_lOJC8Q/maxresdefault.jpg

Still looks like a bullet hole to me in the 2nd to the right window next to the stairs. I've seen many photos and it is in all of them. Doesn't fit with the LE statement of 5 feet in but to me it looks like a bullet hole. Zoom in closer if you know how

 

[gngr~snap]

Possible suicide attempt = 1 gun shot (possibly) heard during the 911 call.
Police arrive and see Mr. Closs.
Upon further inspection, it is NOT a possibility any longer.
Moo

 

[cluciano63]

Gun shots on a 911 call prompt an entirely separate type of response than just sending a patrol car...

 

[Quill]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/N2P0_lOJC8Q/maxresdefault.jpg

Still looks like a bullet hole to me in the 2nd to the right window next to the stairs. I've seen many photos and it is in all of them. Doesn't fit with the LE statement of 5 feet in but to me it looks like a bullet hole. Zoom in closer if you know how

My first time noticing that. Thanks for pointing that out. I want to see some clearer shots of that view for closer inspection. I also remember that there is a "spot" of some type in the siding to the left of the door, but above the wall decor hanging there. It appeared to have either been circled or it is a shadow of the decor or something.

 

[CuriousMaine]

Gun shots on a 911 call prompt an entirely separate type of response than just sending a patrol car...

It wasn't just "a patrol car". They sent 3 officers/cars. That's always seemed like a lot for a hang up call with yelling, on a Sunday night/Monday morning, but I guess there could be multiple reasons for it.

 

[Seahorseladydi]

I don't know if this has been posted yet but the Sheriff said in an article today that the neighbor's account of gunshots is unsubstantiated:



Read more: 'You almost never see this': 5 questions about the Jayme Closs disappearance

I give up.... I’ve tried to read this 4 times and a “you’ve won” page keeps popping up. I’ll try later on my phone.

I have a headache... I think the kids (adult children...lol) are sharing their colds.

I’m curious as to why Sheriff Fitz is changing his statement about the gunshots and that now it was impossible for someone to be in the house for 20 minutes before the police showed up..... hummmmmm....

 

[Lillymac]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/N2P0_lOJC8Q/maxresdefault.jpg

Still looks like a bullet hole to me in the 2nd to the right window next to the stairs. I've seen many photos and it is in all of them. Doesn't fit with the LE statement of 5 feet in but to me it looks like a bullet hole. Zoom in closer if you know how

Is there a picture of the front of the house before the crime? Probably not....and if so I'm sure LE has compared it. The disheveled blinds bother me. Were they always a mess? Bent and uneven...

 

[1987]

the way I picture father getting to front door is, family is asleep, maybe in beds and or on couch, they are awoken to the door being kicked in, father goes to door area in attempt to block entry or buy time for his wife and child, mother is likely not far behind father. that said we have no idea, if they were fully clothed in street wear I would see it differently.

 

[Lillymac]

Gun shots on a 911 call prompt an entirely separate type of response than just sending a patrol car...

You would think if shots were heard an ambulance would also be dispatched.

 

[Trocroc9]

Possible, but I don't think the door had a window. If he saw lights he would likely have looked out the window.

If you look on Denise closs’s Fb page you will see the front door had a large oval window. I’m not sure if I can post a fb page picture or I would. It is pretty far in and to the right of the snowman hanging that was the main focus.

 

[human]

He could have been moving towards the door when it was breached.

Where would the casings be?