GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[concernedperson]

The only real prayer (besides prayers of gratitude) is "Thy will be done!" or so I've been told. But I don't believe God knows our entire life plan when we're born either - if She did, free will wouldn't be so free!

I pray all the time. Not that I wouldn't seek help for my child as I have done so and still ask for prayers. Free will is very much a part of the plan but we ask for intervention in times of struggle. We also ask when no end is in sight for Thy will be done.

I kinda wonder if these people were not very educated or not very astute. Prayer can also be directed to the doctors that care for our loved ones. There is more than one source going on at all times for God to caretakers to friends who love you.

This child needed medical care even to the most oblique observer. God gives a boost but doctors help too.

 

[southcitymom]

I pray all the time. Not that I wouldn't seek help for my child as I have done so and still ask for prayers. Free will is very much a part of the plan but we ask for intervention in times of struggle. We also ask when no end is in sight for Thy will be done.

I kinda wonder if these people were not very educated or not very astute. Prayer can also be directed to the doctors that care for our loved ones. There is more than one source going on at all times for God to caretakers to friends who love you.

This child needed medical care even to the most oblique observer. God gives a boost but doctors help too.

Great post. The part I highlighted is unclear to me yet. From what I have read, I cannot determine that "the most oblique observer" would have known she needed medical care.

I do not know if they knew how sick she was until it was too late. These do not sound like people who have a lot of experience with healthcare matters. It does sound like some family members were concerned at the end.

Even if they did somehow know how grave the situation was, there response may have been to pray more.

I imagine the DA has lots more information and insight than we do. I hope more information keps being released.

 

[sherri79]

Great post. The part I highlighted is unclear to me yet. From what I have read, I cannot determine that "the most oblique observer" would have known she needed medical care.

I do not know if they knew how sick she was until it was too late. These do not sound like people who have a lot of experience with healthcare matters. It does sound like some family members were concerned at the end.

Even if they did somehow know how grave the situation was, there response may have been to pray more.

I imagine the DA has lots more information and insight than we do. I hope more information keps being released.

the father was a police officer at one time so should have seen when it reached the stage of a emergency. the situation was so bad that a aunt from another state knew to call the police just from what she could hear on the phone. going on the reasonable standard what would it take for you to call police against the will of your sister in a matter of her childs health? these parents ran their own business so we are not speaking of uneducated people here.

 

[sherri79]

Exactly - the line is hard to find!

when you have a dead child the line is pretty clear to see. when this child became so ill the parent knew there prayers were not working. at that point they should have called 911 not more people to come pray with them.

here is a example of the line.

"My sister in law is, her daughter's severely, severely sick and she believes her daughter is in a coma. And, she's very religious so she's refusing to take (Kara) to the hospital, so I was hoping maybe somebody could go over there."

you think you child is in a coma. at that point you still do not call?

 

[LinasK]

Poor girl . She didn't need to die! No offense, SCM, but I hope her parents are charged! That had to have been a terrible death.

ITA! What a waste! A totally preventable death.

 

[LinasK]

I believe jurisprudence has firmly established that faith does not constitute a valid excuse to break the law. Nothing against prayer as a healing method but common sense -and in many instances the law- dictates that when a treatment is obviously ineffective and other treatments are available, a different therapeutic approach should be used. Most religious people see prayer as an adjuvant to medical care not a replacement. When a loved one requires surgery for example, such people will pray that the procedure works, not that their loved one will spontaneously heal without intervention.

Agreed!:clap::clap::clap:

 

[southcitymom]

when you have a dead child the line is pretty clear to see. when this child became so ill the parent knew there prayers were not working. at that point they should have called 911 not more people to come pray with them.

here is a example of the line. you think you child is in a coma. at that point you still do not call?

The line is not always clear when you have a dead child. If my child dies of the flu and I didn't give him a flu vaccine, is that line clear? If my 7-year-old gets hit by a car while riding his bike in the street (allowed by me and his Dad), is that line clear?

I don't know if I could recognize a coma - I have no medical experience at all. My cousin's wife who has many many health problems and who he has seen in a coma several times once slipped into a coma for a day before he had any idea (he just thought she was sleepy).

ETA: If you're banking on the prayer cure, how do you know when it's not working? That's - again - a matter of personal perception. Sometimes it's darkest before the dawn.

 

[southcitymom]

the father was a police officer at one time so should have seen when it reached the stage of a emergency. the situation was so bad that a aunt from another state knew to call the police just from what she could hear on the phone. going on the reasonable standard what would it take for you to call police against the will of your sister in a matter of her childs health? these parents ran their own business so we are not speaking of uneducated people here.

I truly don't know if they knew she was in grave danger and their response was more prayer or they knew she was sick and their response was more prayer. I'm not clear on that.

 

[LinasK]

Do you really believe that praying is doing nothing? Do you really believe that praying is not offering aide? If you do - that's cool and I respect that. But I do want to point out that lots of people see prayer as a powerful action. On this site alone, we have threads devoted to people seeking prayers from their friends.

You might think prayer is complete crap, but I think you'd be in the minority. It's a matter of degree for most people. Many people believe in prayer up to a certain point but do not have the faith that prayer is all-powerful.

Like Karl roughly said, fine pray if you think if will help, in addition to seeking medical care, NOT in place of it. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid!:doh::doh::doh:

 

[southcitymom]

Like Karl roughly said, fine pray if you think if will help, in addition to seeking medical care, NOT in place of it. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid!:doh::doh::doh:

Some folks think God is more powerful than a medical doctor. Some folks don't have the inclination to seek medical care. Some folks don't have the money to seek medical care. I don't consider these people stupid, but I get that others do.

 

[sherri79]

The line is not always clear when you have a dead child. If my child dies of the flu and I didn't give him a flu vaccine, is that line clear? If my 7-year-old gets hit by a car while riding his bike in the street (allowed by me and his Dad), is that line clear?

I don't know if I could recognize a coma - I have no medical experience at all. My cousin's wife who has many many health problems and who he has seen in a coma several times once slipped into a coma for a day before he had any idea (he just thought she was sleepy).

ETA: If you're banking on the prayer cure, how do you know when it's not working? That's - again - a matter of personal perception. Sometimes it's darkest before the dawn.

is your child at high risk of death from the flu? hiv positive or have cancer? then yes. is the street you are talking about a regular neighborhood street or I-40? if it is a interstate then yes.

the aunt said the mother thought it was a coma. now if the mother thought it was a coma then she realized it was serious. people rarely slip into a coma with a cold or stomache flu.

 

[LinasK]

As the mother of a Type I diabetic daughter, this just tears at my heart. I cannot imagine. Cannot.

I cannot bear to think about how the girl probably suffered. I realize all diabetics are different, but MOST would be pretty sick after 1-2 days of no insulin. Heck, with my daughter, if her blood sugars were too high (for varied reasons) for several hours or 1/2 a day, she was already feeling like cr*#. Headache, lethargic...just out of it, like the flu.

We learned from about day #2 of her hospitalization for her original diagnosis, about KA, what this poor girl died from. They told me that at the time of her diagnosis, she was probably 2 days away from a diabetic coma. They get sick, vomiting, etc. I'm wondering how many days of this she had - they said something about her being ill for about 30 days. Poor, poor girl.

Spent 5 hours this morning with my husband in the ER. The guy in the next bed was being seen for blood sugars way out of control! In the 300-400 range and he was losing his vision! He didn't know the symptoms of excessive thirst meant you shouldn't drink Slurpees! That's where ignorance of diabetes can get you- blindness, I'm not kidding!

 

[LinasK]

The line is not always clear when you have a dead child. If my child dies of the flu and I didn't give him a flu vaccine, is that line clear? If my 7-year-old gets hit by a car while riding his bike in the street (allowed by me and his Dad), is that line clear?

I don't know if I could recognize a coma - I have no medical experience at all. My cousin's wife who has many many health problems and who he has seen in a coma several times once slipped into a coma for a day before he had any idea (he just thought she was sleepy).

ETA: If you're banking on the prayer cure, how do you know when it's not working? That's - again - a matter of personal perception. Sometimes it's darkest before the dawn.

The flu vaccine is not a required shot as say Polio.

 

[LinasK]

Some folks think God is more powerful than a medical doctor. Some folks don't have the inclination to seek medical care. Some folks don't have the money to seek medical care. I don't consider these people stupid, but I get that others do.

Money isn't an issue. Many poor people know that ER's will not refuse to treat them. They provide indigent care, and also Medical/Medicaid is available.

 

[southcitymom]

is your child at high risk of death from the flu? hiv positive or have cancer? then yes. is the street you are talking about a regular neighborhood street or I-40? if it is a interstate then yes.

the aunt said the mother thought it was a coma. now if the mother thought it was a coma then she realized it was serious. people rarely slip into a coma with a cold or stomache flu.

My children were in a high risk flu category as infants - one with allergies. My street is a normal street, but there are people here and elsewhere that think it is negligence to let a 7-year-old out of your sight ever "in today's world" .

My only point is that this is all a matter of perspective.

If the mother thought it was a coma, it sounds like she banked on prayer and God to pull them through. I am sorry for this family that the outcome of that choice was so tragic for them.

 

[southcitymom]

The flu vaccine is not a required shot as say Polio.

If I don't get my child vaccinated for Polio and he gets Polio and dies or is maimed for life, am I negligent? I don't think so - I believe parents have the right to choose or not choose the best the West has to offer. But plenty of people think it's negligent not to vaccinate.

 

[southcitymom]

Money isn't an issue. Many poor people know that ER's will not refuse to treat them. They provide indigent care, and also Medical/Medicaid is available.

Nope - I don't think money was the issue for this family. I think the issue was they chose to have faith in God over having faith in a doctor. I personally don't think that makes them stupid.

 

[scarpetta]

SCM, I applaud you for being willing to speak your mind even though you are in the minority here among all the opinions.

I think I would like to understand your views a little better. Not to debate them, but to really understand them. (And I will try my best to stick to that! LOL)

If one of these parents was cutting up some lettuce to make a salad and slipped with the knife and sliced right into their finger and it made a really deep cut and was bleeding profusely, chances are they would rinse the cut and wrap something around it to stop the bleeding. I don't think that they would stand there praying for God to stop the bleeding and go ahead and bleed to death over the sink if they didn't get an answer. I think that they would probably doctor their own wound. Maybe when the bleeding had stopped they might even put a band-aid on it to insure that it did not reopen while they were doing something else and start bleeding again. Or maybe to keep the germs out of the wound.

What do you think would be the difference to them between doctoring their own wound and allowing a doctor to put the band-aid on for them?

Is it because someone else is doing it instead of doing it themselves, and is that the part that is lacking in faith? Granted, they might pray for God to heal the wound a little faster than it would heal on it's own, but I think the original "doctoring" of the wound they would go ahead and automatically do on their own.

How is that different from continuing to pray that God heal their daughter of Diabetes while at the same "doctoring" her condition with Insulin instead of a band-aid?

I hope we can exchange thoughts about this because I would sincerely like to understand more of where you are coming from. I am not implying that you think these parents are right in what they did, but at the same time you seem to see a side of this issue that I am failing to understand.

 

[pedinurse]

i'm sorry but these people knew what was going on... i mean, they were calling people and telling them she was in a coma. they also are telliing people she will rise from the dead.
i understand that they are religious, however... they were negligent. they should have taken her to the doctor. this girl suffered. DKA is a horrible way to die. :-(

 

[scarpetta]

A correction on the Good Samaritan laws - I've yet to see one that works the way you described. All the ones I have seen indemnify a non-involved person who provides assistance from liability for the results of that assistance. For instance, if I come across an accident here in Nevada where the driver is laying in the street unresponsive and I give him CPR until the paramedics arrive, yet he later dies, his heirs cannot sue me for contributing to his death (unless I actually did and they prove it - the law does not prevent suits completely). However, if I was to just stand by and look, without touching the victim, I would have not violated any criminal statues.

What you described is generally referred to as a "duty to assist" law. Some states have them, and some countries (such as Germany) have them as well. In many states there are specific requirements to assist minors (such as requiring the reporting of suspected abuse). In general those laws also include protections similar to the Good Samaritan laws along with the penalties for failing to assist.

Yes, Adnoid, you are correct. It is the "Duty to Aid" law and not the "Good Samaritan" law that applies here. The Good Samaritan laws are designed to protect those who are trying to assist, and the "Duty to Aid" has to do with helping someone that you see needs assistance. My mistake on those two laws. An Example of the "Duty to Aid" law would be Sklarksy v. New Hope Gild Center where a husband failed to call 911 in order to help his mentally ill wife. Thank you for pointing out that mistake.