GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[kygal]

I don't know why but I'm sorta compelled to say something here.

I am now and have always been deeply devoted to prayer, and I believe that God can heal things when doctors have given up and refuse to do more. I have seen this more than once, as a matter of fact I have seen people given back hearing and one who had both lungs and all ribs shattered heal without a scratch after the doctors had given up hope and told the family to prepare his funeral.

However, if my children are sick then you had better believe that they'll be in the doctor's office. (Just got back from there with both girls and hubby... ). There is nothing in the Bible that says you should refrain from taking yourself or your child to the doctor -- at least that I remember reading. Just because God is the Divine Healer does NOT mean that he wants you to ignore basic medical care. I mean shoot, even the most extreme units of functioning religions take their children to the doctor! I'm sure that their church did not tell them that they shouldn't take her to the doctor.

It's not like they were taking her in for vaccinations (which are a touchy subject even in our church), but seeking care for an apparent serious illness. I don't think that someone (like SCM or myself) who refuse to vaccinate my children for the flu should be arrested for it if they die, but then again I think that we'd be taking our children to the hospital if we thought our children to the doctor/hospital if we thought there were seriously ill with it. (Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth SCM!!)

I'm not going to say that the parents were wrong to pray for their child, but they should be charged in some way with something after knowing that something was wrong and not seeking medical attention. Probably not murder, but it sounds like it could be negligence resulting in death (usually something like Man. II in most states). However, I most certainly hope that they don't receive anything more than a long probation or something like it. I don't think that putting these people in jail will do anything for them or society in general. The record must be made clear that you simply can't allow your children to die, but you can't trample on someone's religious beliefs either.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Unless I am mistaken about what I heard on NG, an officer said the other children had been removed and they were investigating before returning them. Did anyone else hear that?!

 

[kygal]

Unless I am mistaken about what I heard on NG, an officer said the other children had been removed and they were investigating before returning them. Did anyone else hear that?!

Would this be on their website? I don't have Headline News or Court TV (or whatever they call it now). I guess I should go look.

If that's the case I wonder if something has changed?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

If they have the transcript of NG's show last nite...it should be on it. I haven't checked yet.

 

[SewingDeb]

Unless I am mistaken about what I heard on NG, an officer said the other children had been removed and they were investigating before returning them. Did anyone else hear that?!

Here's the transcript:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/26/ng.01.html

 

[curious1]

WESTON, Wis. — The mother of an 11-year-old girl who died of untreated diabetes said Wednesday that she did not know her daughter was terminally ill as she prayed for her to get better.
Madeline Neumann died Sunday from a treatable form of diabetes.
Her mother, Leilani Neumann, told The Associated Press that she never expected her daughter, whom she called Kara, to die. The family believes in the Bible, and it says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people, she said...snip

snip....The family does not belong to an organized religion or faith, Leilani Neumann said.

more at link........
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html

Okay now I am confused :waitasec: She's saying they are not any part of a religion they just live by the bible.....um where does it say to only rely on faith and not use the brain God gave ya? And if you want to go with the purely living by faith part couldn't you say they should of had faith that God would guide doctors to heal her? Religion is great....until people start trying to interpret it then it just gets all screwed up. JMO

 

[SeriouslySearching]

The frightening part is that to me the Bible is written not to be taken literally, but rather symbolically.

 

[Amraann]

When their car gets low on fuel, they pull up to the pump so that they are not stranded. When they are running low on food they head to the grocery store so they do not starve. They buy toilet paper to avoid ridiculous alternatives, replace blades on their lawnmowers, put money in parking meters to avoid tickets, repaint their houses to prevent the wood from rotting, and take their dogs to the vet to be spayed or neutered.

But when it comes to the life of their child….THAT they can only pray about.

That’s not pure faith, it is selective stupidity.

This is an Excellent post!!!

 

[southcitymom]

The frightening part is that to me the Bible is written not to be taken literally, but rather symbolically.

For me it's not even this simple. Some parts of the Bible are literal and historically accurate as verified by numerous other sources. Some parts of the Bible are figurative and symbolic. But which is which.

Many Christians accept the Bible as God's inspired word and are taught and believe that every word in it is not only true - but Truth. But then - the Bible contradicts itself in inumerable places - so where is the truth?

It all comes down, again, to perspective and interpretation.

But I digress! What I really meant to say, SeriouslySearching, is that parts of the Bible are very literal and factual.

 

[southcitymom]

SCM, I applaud you for being willing to speak your mind even though you are in the minority here among all the opinions.

I think I would like to understand your views a little better. Not to debate them, but to really understand them. (And I will try my best to stick to that! LOL)

If one of these parents was cutting up some lettuce to make a salad and slipped with the knife and sliced right into their finger and it made a really deep cut and was bleeding profusely, chances are they would rinse the cut and wrap something around it to stop the bleeding. I don't think that they would stand there praying for God to stop the bleeding and go ahead and bleed to death over the sink if they didn't get an answer. I think that they would probably doctor their own wound. Maybe when the bleeding had stopped they might even put a band-aid on it to insure that it did not reopen while they were doing something else and start bleeding again. Or maybe to keep the germs out of the wound.

What do you think would be the difference to them between doctoring their own wound and allowing a doctor to put the band-aid on for them?

Is it because someone else is doing it instead of doing it themselves, and is that the part that is lacking in faith? Granted, they might pray for God to heal the wound a little faster than it would heal on it's own, but I think the original "doctoring" of the wound they would go ahead and automatically do on their own.

How is that different from continuing to pray that God heal their daughter of Diabetes while at the same "doctoring" her condition with Insulin instead of a band-aid?

I hope we can exchange thoughts about this because I would sincerely like to understand more of where you are coming from. I am not implying that you think these parents are right in what they did, but at the same time you seem to see a side of this issue that I am failing to understand.

Hi Scarpetta,

You have created a hypothetical that may or may not be what happened in this situation, so it's hard for me to jump in and give my opinion.

I will say that where doctoring is or isn't allowed is a parent's call, IMHO, even if their beliefs seem contradictory to us. My exception to this would be active physical harming of the child - male or female circumcising without benefit of anesthesia, dunking a child in boiling water to kill evil spirits within, etc...etc...

Like - I have a hard time describing this line, but I know it when I see it.

For me - with what I know of this case - the line has not been crossed.

These parents did not give this child diabetes. Neither did they cause her diabetes to get worse and kill her. IMHO, they didn't even know she had diabetes until after her death. Her diabetes did what diabetes does when man does not interfere with it.

We know they knew she was sick. We know their response to that was prayer. That, IMHO, is a valid response to a sick person. Seeking Western medical care when you think prayer is the best recourse for healing and treatment is not a legal requirement - nor should it be.

That's just my opinion in this case. If the situation were different I would feel differently. If a mother neglected her young child for 5 days because she was nodding out on heroin and the child dies from malnutrition because the mother neglected to feed it, I believe that mother is negligent and shares culpability in the child's death.

Shooting heroin is, IMHO, not a valid helpful action in the face of responsibilities to our children. Praying is.

 

[scarpetta]

SCM, thank you for reading my post in the spirit in which it was intended. I am still trying to understand this concept and I don't want to keep asking you questions that eventually start to look like I am just firing back my opinions or instantly disagreeing with you no matter what you say. I don't think you would take it that way because of who have always been on these threads, but still I want to do my part in not coming across as argumentative just for the sake of being heard.

so I will ask this in this way...

I seem to remember them allowing the medics to perform CPR on her, unless I am getting that wrong. I will go back and check.

Isn't this a form of medical assistance or an attempt to intervene in an effort to save her? I will go back and read through that again.

 

[scarpetta]

I was wrong, it was actually the father himself who performed CPR on his daughter.

"The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he has friends who are doctors. He started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body, he said."

 

[southcitymom]

SCM, thank you for reading my post in the spirit in which it was intended. I am still trying to understand this concept and I don't want to keep asking you questions that eventually start to look like I am just firing back my opinions or instantly disagreeing with you no matter what you say. I don't think you would take it that way because of who have always been on these threads, but still I want to do my part in not coming across as argumentative just for the sake of being heard.

so I will ask this in this way...

I seem to remember them allowing the medics to perform CPR on her, unless I am getting that wrong. I will go back and check.

Isn't this a form of medical assistance or an attempt to intervene in an effort to save her? I will go back and read through that again.

You can ask me questions all night, scarpetta! I am feeling chatty - though I will have to feed my family soon. I appreciate the conversation.

The medics - yes, I believe they allowed the medics to take her. Even the Dad said he started CPR as soon as he saw the life leaving her. I believe them, scarpetta. I believe they knew she was sick and I believe they were praying for her healing and thought she was getting better.

Now - perhaps if they had known how dire it was, they would have called for medical assistance sooner. Again - I am just talking about the spirit behind their actions am choices.

This family hasn't said - we will never go for medical help ever. I didn't read that in any of their statements. I read that the trusted and relied on God and the Bible. I read that they had noticed her become tired over the last two weeks and had started a treatment of prayer. I read that she took a downward turn in the couple of days before her death (I don't know the specifics of what that downward turn looked like). I read that at the end she seemed to be responded positively to the prayer - her body felt warm but not feverish - her energy seemed better.

Then things got dire, family members got involved, medical help was called, the Father stepped in with CPR. This course of events does not seem strange to me - or contradictory.

I believe they did what they thought was best for their daughter and I believe they thought it was working. I have enough experience with prayer accomplishing things that Western medicine can't that I respect their decisions - I am sad at the way things turned out. No piece of me believes they intended, wanted or prayed for this sad outcome.

Maybe other facts will come to light that make me see things differently - but so far - nothing has.

I don't just believe in prayer as a last resort or if the doctor can't fix it.

 

[scarpetta]

He has friends who are doctors and so that is how he knew how to do what doctors do in those situations.

Then he did it. That thing that Western Medical Doctors do.

I can tell that I am about to get argumentative.....so off to make a giant glass of iced tea!

 

[scarpetta]

Thank you again for your thoughts SCM.

 

[southcitymom]

Thank you again for your thoughts SCM.

:blowkiss: No harm meant in my opinions, scarpetta. I understand and respect how strongly you feel about yours as well. I don't think any of us (the parents included) are anything but heartbroken that this young girl died.

Perhaps, they will change some of their views. Or perhaps they will simply accept God's will, as we all must finally do. I'm sure the DA has much more information than we do and I will be very interested to see what that office does.

 

[southcitymom]

He has friends who are doctors and so that is how he knew how to do what doctors do in those situations.....

He may have - I took from the article that the father - who used to be a cop - knew CPR from that job.

 

[scarpetta]

SCM,
I think the idea that it is God’s will that is applied to this situation probably makes up the entire core of where we differ. I can appreciate and enjoy very much your honest thoughts, and I do. I can also disagree at the same time and still consider your thoughts just as valid as my own, and I do entirely. As a matter of fact, I even thought that it was sort of a shame that all of the posts shared here in this thread were confined to words read on a computer screen, and wouldn’t it have been great to have had everyone at a table at the same time drinking coffee and sharing their ideas. A chance to hear some of those exclamation points in person!

I have been meeting with a group of people at a coffee shop for the past couple of months and the conversations are generally about core views and concepts. Some of those core views do not match the core views of others and yet everyone still has managed, so far, to be able to agree to disagree and maybe learn something in the exchange. I have definitely learned a few things in the process. Our back and forth here reminded me of that same thing, and I have enjoyed it just as much.

I wonder how many legal cases there are that involve some of the same circumstances as this incident involving this child. I’m going to see what I can find even though the information we have about this one is still so limited. Maybe we can compare the outcome of this one with other cases and figure out why it went the way it did and what those decisions are based on.

 

[Texana]

That really is the crux of the matter.

I'm coming in late on this one.

You are right, SCM, that is the crux of the matter.

When the parents continued to pray, and the child continued to get sicker, that is when they allowed their faith to over rule common sense. They could have taken the child to a doctor but still refused to seek medical treatment. They had to have seen that the child was getting sicker and not better.

A child died who could have been saved with medical intervention. That is also the crux of the matter.

 

[philamena]

I'm coming in late on this one.

You are right, SCM, that is the crux of the matter.

When the parents continued to pray, and the child continued to get sicker, that is when they allowed their faith to over rule common sense. They could have taken the child to a doctor but still refused to seek medical treatment. They had to have seen that the child was getting sicker and not better.

A child died who could have been saved with medical intervention. That is also the crux of the matter.

Bravo!:clap: :clap: