GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[Amraann]

WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.

More at link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html



This was a very cute young girl. My prayers for her family. I hope they are not charged, but they might be.

I read this thread and the links..
If I typed what I thought???
I would be be banned

 

[KOOL LOOK]

I read this thread and the links..
If I typed what I thought???
I would be be banned

Take it to the parking lot, sista! :crazy:

 

[southcitymom]

I'm coming in late on this one.

You are right, SCM, that is the crux of the matter.

When the parents continued to pray, and the child continued to get sicker, that is when they allowed their faith to over rule common sense. They could have taken the child to a doctor but still refused to seek medical treatment. They had to have seen that the child was getting sicker and not better.

A child died who could have been saved with medical intervention. That is also the crux of the matter.

Hey Texana!

The child who died might have been saved with medical intervention. Certainly our collective wisom tells us that diabetes can be managed. But we can never know what might have happened had they taken her to a doctor sooner.

Additionally, there is no law in this country that obligates us to seek what the majority of us might consider the "normal" medical care. So I'm not sure I see that as the crux!

Do we want to make a law that requires people to take their childen to the doctor regularly and/or when they seem very sick? Do we want to make a law that requires people to take their children for preventative medical care (vaccines, etc..)? Some folks might want to, but I don't.

If we instate such laws, we'd better be certain that all people are able to follow them - ie, that medical care is available to all children.

Laws like this would say to our citizens - we think this (routine Western medical care) is the best thing you can do for your health and we're going to force you to do what we say......No thanks.

 

[southcitymom]

SCM,
I think the idea that it is God’s will that is applied to this situation probably makes up the entire core of where we differ. I can appreciate and enjoy very much your honest thoughts, and I do. I can also disagree at the same time and still consider your thoughts just as valid as my own, and I do entirely. As a matter of fact, I even thought that it was sort of a shame that all of the posts shared here in this thread were confined to words read on a computer screen, and wouldn’t it have been great to have had everyone at a table at the same time drinking coffee and sharing their ideas. A chance to hear some of those exclamation points in person!

I have been meeting with a group of people at a coffee shop for the past couple of months and the conversations are generally about core views and concepts. Some of those core views do not match the core views of others and yet everyone still has managed, so far, to be able to agree to disagree and maybe learn something in the exchange. I have definitely learned a few things in the process. Our back and forth here reminded me of that same thing, and I have enjoyed it just as much.

I wonder how many legal cases there are that involve some of the same circumstances as this incident involving this child. I’m going to see what I can find even though the information we have about this one is still so limited. Maybe we can compare the outcome of this one with other cases and figure out why it went the way it did and what those decisions are based on.

Great post, scarpetta. I love what you said about chatting over coffee or tea instead of on a keyboard - where the interaction isn't as fluid and you can never really get the full gist of a person.

The last case I remember that was similar(but different) to this one was discussed here - some might recall it. A woman (I think she may have been a Scientologist, but don't quote me on that!) was giving birth at home. Severe problems ensued. She would not seek medical help due to her spiritual beliefs. Her husband did not force her to seek medical help. She died a painful, tortuous death. I believe the child lived (but maybe not - again, don't quote me). I do not recall if charges were filed but plenty of people wanted them to be filed. I - again - believed in that family's right to choose.

It's emotional when a child is involved. Not as many of us would care if an adult did not seek medical attention and instead turned to prayer and they died from a disease process that may well have been treatable. But, in this country, we have the freedom (within legal limits of course) to raise our children in the manner we see fit. This is religious freedom and I believe in it.

Do we believe prayer works? Do we believe prayer works sometimes? Do we believe prayer can heal and save and soothe? Or do we only believe it works when it gives us the results we want?

People extol the virtues of a God who performs miracles when the cancer goes away forever or our husband walks away without a scratch from a car that was smashed to bits or our friend who doctors tell us will probably be in a coma for years starts walking and talking within days. But do we extol the virtues of prayer when the outcome doesn't go the way we want it to?

Or do we really believe in prayer, its powers, its miracles? That may be where we differ. I don't have one single thought about what God's will was in this situation. Some would say - if it happened, it's God's will. I'm not that cut and dried on the subject because that tends to negate free will for me. And I'm BIG on free will. I lean more towards - if it happens and it sucks, God's strength can get me through it.

These people believed in the power of prayer. I do too. I cannot call them stupid for believing in and practicing something I believe in and practice. And I could never get down with a law that would penalize them for taking advantage of this freedom.

Again - the DA may press charges - Cyberlaw has posted a few interesting cases and tidbits. I don't see these types of cases a lot - and each one is unique.

I am babbling now, but perhaps our differences lie in your seeing this family's religious practices and choices as extreme - maybe even extreme to the point of mental illness. I don't perceive it that way based on what I know about the case.

 

[southcitymom]

I know a girl that had her child taken away because she didn't take her to the doc for well checks when they were scheduled (she did take her, but not on those dates). They didn't prove her an unfit parent as she kept the other two, but this one was born with a condition which they wanted to keep an eye on. She wasn't in need of medical attention at the times of those visits, but because she missed the scheduled appts. her daughter was given to another couple who petitioned the court to raise her.

So while it may not be a law, isn't it odd they can wisk your child away for not doing it?

Wow, Seriously, that is very interesting! Can you give more details? I would think it would take a lot more than a missed doc appointment to have someone try to take your kid away. Is there more to your story than meets the eye?

 

[sherri79]

scm i see your point and i even agree with it in part. as a parent we have a right to make medical choices for our child including not to seek medical attention. if your child is brain dead you can say turn off the machine and let god's will be done and not be questioned about your faith. if your child has cancer courts have ruled you can decide enough is enough and stop treatment at some point. what that point is differs greatly depending on the court and the stage of the cancer. if the doctors tell me my child will be dead in 6 weeks would i give up? hell no. i would pray and beg god to save her. is the fact i turn to god as a last resort and they turn there first enough to make them criminals?

in this case the mother can now claim she did not realize her daughter was that ill but i think the facts say otherwise. mom says she was improving or at least appeared to be. what we know is that the child at the very least felt ill for a few weeks. then the child became much sicker. ok at this point the family is trying to heal her with prayer and i can understand that. they even called friends to come pray with them in a effort to heal the child. now the child slips into what mom believes is a coma and mom calls a relative from out of state and tells her this. this is not the child getting better. the child has reached what mom feels is a coma. medical help was not called when she slipped into a coma and that was neglect. they did not call for help until the breath of life left her. breath of life leaves you and you are dead. too late for the call. mom can claim the child was doing better all she wants but i can not find that just because your child is warm but not feverish while in a coma that they are improving.

 

[scarpetta]

These are some things I think about when people like these parents claim they are waiting on God to make their child better.....



When a monkey uses a blade of grass to stick in a hole in a rotting tree stump in order to eat the termites that crawl on the blade of grass we think, how clever.

Dung Beetles store their baby beetle eggs in little round balls that they made out of animal poop and hide those balls because what animal is going to want to eat something made of that when found?

Cats eat grass to make themselves throw up and hopefully throw up the big hair ball in their stomach in the process.

Bees take pollen and turn it into honey.

The wiring in our homes is not connected to a breaker box in heaven. The Power Company owns the electricity and we pay them money to have some.

There aren’t trees in nature that grow plastic jugs that hold the milk that we buy at the grocery store. That material is man made.

There is no such thing as a Polyester Sheep.

Most of the foods we buy in the grocery store contain artificial flavors and preservatives. Man made ingredients that we ingest on a daily basis.

We have carpets and rugs in our homes because they are warmer and softer than bedrock or tile, and most of the time made of synthetic fibers, or man made materials.

The fuel that we put in our cars does not come out of the ground that way.

Bars of soap do not grow on vines.

The glue on the back of stamps that you lick would not provide you with a healthy balanced diet if those were the only things you allowed to touch your tongue.

God did not call Adam and Eve on the phone to tell them to stay away from that tree.

The universe, our solar system, this planet, Summer, Spring, Winter, and Fall would continue doing what it is doing even if all of the humans were to disappear. We add nothing to that process, and our absence would subtract nothing as well.

If it is not in its original form then someone mixed two or more things together to make that thing you are using, wearing, or eating. The things that were mixed with other things first existed in their original form. Those original things that were not man made were mixed with other original things that were not man made in order to produce things that are man made. That is most of everything we buy.

The mushrooms we eat are spore-bearing fruiting bodies of fungi.

Bacteria is added to milk and turns into Yogurt.

Escherichia coli is the most widely used form of bacteria to grow Insulin used to treat Diabetes.

 

[southcitymom]

..... medical help was not called when she slipped into a coma and that was neglect. .....

Maybe, sherri. Or maybe you believe that your child has been put into such a deep sleep so she can rest while the healing begins. Some doctors put people into comas for that very reason - of course, those are MD-approved comas, which we are comfortable with. We're not so comfortable thinking God might allow a person to enter such a state so that She could heal them.

 

[athy]

there was an old story i heard once.

the man was stuck on top of his house during a storm...he prayed to God to save him. a guy came buy in a boat he passed him on...saying no God will save me. a while later a guy came by in a helicopter the guy waved him on...saying God will save me. the guy on top of the house drowned and when he met his Lord he asked him Lord why didn't you save me. God said, i sent the guy in a boat...you waved him on, i sent the guy in the helicopter...you waved him on. i did try to save you and you ignored the tools and people i put in front of you that would have saved you.

 

[southcitymom]

there was an old story i heard once.

the man was stuck on top of his house during a storm...he prayed to God to save him. a guy came buy in a boat he passed him on...saying no God will save me. a while later a guy came by in a helicopter the guy waved him on...saying God will save me. the guy on top of the house drowned and when he met his Lord he asked him Lord why didn't you save me. God said, i sent the guy in a boat...you waved him on, i sent the guy in the helicopter...you waved him on. i did try to save you and you ignored the tools and people i put in front of you that would have saved you.

Hey athy,

I love this story too - an oldie, but goodie!

 

[concernedperson]

Maybe, sherri. Or maybe you believe that your child has been put into such a deep sleep so she can rest while the healing begins. Some doctors put people into comas for that very reason - of course, those are MD-approved comas, which we are comfortable with. We're not so comfortable thinking God might allow a person to enter such a state so that She could heal them.

MD's don't put people in a coma willy nilly. There are very serious reasons why. They can't breathe on their own is one and they intubate. They may have had complications after major surgery.

God gives the tools. He is not allowing a coma to heal. That is ludicrous.I don't think you have had much experience with serious medical conditions and the doctors that treat them. God watches over and prayer helps but the hands on is on the ground. Guided, but God doesn't put people in comas. Jeez!

 

[sherri79]

Maybe, sherri. Or maybe you believe that your child has been put into such a deep sleep so she can rest while the healing begins. Some doctors put people into comas for that very reason - of course, those are MD-approved comas, which we are comfortable with. We're not so comfortable thinking God might allow a person to enter such a state so that She could heal them.

we can debate what if all day if we can change the facts to fit as needed. i would actually love to do that. 1 of my favorite past times is a good debate. pity my husband.

in this case the facts you just suggested do not fit. she told the relative her child was in a coma. had she told the relative the child was in a healing trance you could argue she thought the child was asleep to aid in the healing. in this case the best you could argue is mom thought "god put my child in a coma to heal her" . then only told the relative the coma part and this devout woman left out the part about god.

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Spent 5 hours this morning with my husband in the ER. The guy in the next bed was being seen for blood sugars way out of control! In the 300-400 range and he was losing his vision! He didn't know the symptoms of excessive thirst meant you shouldn't drink Slurpees! That's where ignorance of diabetes can get you- blindness, I'm not kidding!

First of all, I hope your hubby is okay.

Yes, that guy sounds like a common diabetic emergency. I didn't know all the symptoms of diabetes when my daughter was diagnosed; we "lucked out" that I took her to the pediatrician after she started flooding the bed every night at the age of 5...and this was a child who never wet her bed. I mean flooding it! The education of the typical signs/symptoms are so much more well known now than back at her time of diagnosis. However, I've known other adults and kids that have been diagnosed, that they had no idea. Thank goodness all found out before they had such grave side effects.

Maybe this family didn't know she had diabetes? I guess, if she really hadn't seen a doctor since the age of 3 for a vaccine, then they didn't know? Maybe medical naiveness or ignorance was part of this case? How sad.

I still think about how she suffered...it would have been a long time and actual suffering. Having known other diabetics who have lived to explain how sick they would become when they didn't follow their diabetes management plan, it just breaks my heart how she suffered in a lingering manner.

 

[scarpetta]

That's so true SCM, so much is missed when it is only words we are reading. There are some really good minds on this forum and that's why it made me think of everyone sitting around a table with coffee and debating this in person. Sometimes the body language in a group cracks me up, and I do it too. When you are leaning forward ready to pounce on an idea you don't agree with and then you catch yourself doing it and lean back instead. LOL I think sometimes that is as much fun to watch in everyone as the discussions themselves.

 

[Truly]

to choose.

It's emotional when a child is involved. Not as many of us would care if an adult did not seek medical attention and instead turned to prayer and they died from a disease process that may well have been treatable. But, in this country, we have the freedom (within legal limits of course) to raise our children in the manner we see fit. This is religious freedom and I believe in it.

I lean more towards - if it happens and it sucks, God's strength can get me through it.

An adult can choose to decide to refuse medical treatment and die.

A child in a coma cannot make such a choice.

Yeah, sure, you and the parents in this sad case can sit and watch a child die. You can do nothing to save the child. And when the child dies, you and the parents will 'get through it' You can say, 'oh, that sucks'. You can say that God will get you through it, but what about the kid?

The child never had a chance because the adults who should have taken action to save her life just sat there and watched her die.

 

[scarpetta]

DeputyDawg, do you think that even if they didn't know it was diabetes, that they still had a way to know just how sick she was from something?

 

[LinasK]

First of all, I hope your hubby is okay.

Thanks, he's got a Kidney Stone, but they discovered something else potentially scary at the same time.
Meanwhile, my dad is in the hospital for a gallbladder operation, and I found out this afternoon, that he's had two atrial fibs(irregular heartbeats) in the last week. That's what my mom had right before she died!

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

DeputyDawg, do you think that even if they didn't know it was diabetes, that they still had a way to know just how sick she was from something?

Personally, I cannot fathom watching a child suffer for weeks, throwing up, lethargic, so sick...and not asking for medical intervention. I just can't wrap my head around that. I mean, maybe one would think it was flu-like symptoms in the beginning...but goodness, after 4-5 days to a week...and longer???? And not do anything? It's not like she was really getting better...although the mother says she thought there was improvement at one point. (Probably wishful thinking on her part.) Being sick for close to 30 days, she had to be getting dehydrated, losing weight, etc. Doubt she could really eat anything and keep it down. The diabetics going to DKA are really, really sick!!! grrrrr. Poor girl. Poor girl....

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Thanks, he's got a Kidney Stone, but they discovered something else potentially scary at the same time.
Meanwhile, my dad is in the hospital for a gallbladder operation, and I found out this afternoon, that he's had two atrial fibs(irregular heartbeats) in the last week. That's what my mom had right before she died!

Sheesh...:blowkiss:
Here's to you staying healthy so you can take care of everyone else!
I hope everyone gets better.

 

[curious1]

I was wrong, it was actually the father himself who performed CPR on his daughter.

"The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he has friends who are doctors. He started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body, he said."

hmmmm, isn't CPR a 'medical procedure'? So he could intervene with a medical procedure after she died, but not to keep her from dying? :waitasec: