GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[scarpetta]

Crypto6, in my response to your PM I said that it was my opinion that it would eventually be reported that these parents were especially preoccupied with the Book of Revelation in the Bible and the Apocalypse. I did a search this morning to see if that had been reported yet and here it is. Thought I would post the link for everyone....

"Leilani Neumann told The Associated Press that the family does not belong to any organized religion or faith but believes in the Bible and said that healing comes from God.


There were also two postings under her name on the Web site AmericasLastDays.com, which is operated by Unleavened Bread Ministries, an evangelical ministry that focuses on the apocalypse."



http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20974/madeline-kara-neumann

 

[southcitymom]

MD's don't put people in a coma willy nilly. There are very serious reasons why. They can't breathe on their own is one and they intubate. They may have had complications after major surgery.

God gives the tools. He is not allowing a coma to heal. That is ludicrous.I don't think you have had much experience with serious medical conditions and the doctors that treat them. God watches over and prayer helps but the hands on is on the ground. Guided, but God doesn't put people in comas. Jeez!

I never said God put her in a coma. I personally think diabetes out her in a coma. I said some folks might think God would allow such a deep sleep so God could heal.

Sorry if I was unclear!

 

[southcitymom]

we can debate what if all day if we can change the facts to fit as needed. i would actually love to do that. 1 of my favorite past times is a good debate. pity my husband.

in this case the facts you just suggested do not fit. she told the relative her child was in a coma. had she told the relative the child was in a healing trance you could argue she thought the child was asleep to aid in the healing. in this case the best you could argue is mom thought "god put my child in a coma to heal her" . then only told the relative the coma part and this devout woman left out the part about god.

yes - we just don't have enough information to know how she responded to it all. Even if the mother knew her daughter was in a coma, I believe she is within her rights to turn to prayer instead of medical doctors.

 

[southcitymom]

...The child never had a chance because the adults who should have taken action to save her life just sat there and watched her die.

I don't perceive this as true. The adults took action by praying for this child and by believing God would heal her. They are not the only adults in the world who believe in prayer as a healing action.

Prayer is not doing nothing, IMHO. Prayer is action.

 

[southcitymom]

Personally, I cannot fathom watching a child suffer for weeks, throwing up, lethargic, so sick...and not asking for medical intervention. I just can't wrap my head around that. I mean, maybe one would think it was flu-like symptoms in the beginning...but goodness, after 4-5 days to a week...and longer???? And not do anything? It's not like she was really getting better...although the mother says she thought there was improvement at one point. (Probably wishful thinking on her part.) Being sick for close to 30 days, she had to be getting dehydrated, losing weight, etc. Doubt she could really eat anything and keep it down. The diabetics going to DKA are really, really sick!!! grrrrr. Poor girl. Poor girl....

Hi Deputy,

I have a friend who is about 50. When he was 8 years old, he fell asleep on his parents bed. When he woke up in the hospital, he was blind. He is still blind. He had gone into a diabetic coma. No one knew he was diabetic until that incident.

I think it is possible that the road leading to a diabetic coma is not necessarily filled with pain and vomiting. For him, it was preceded by a few days of being tired.

 

[scarpetta]

Prayer is not doing nothing, IMHO. Prayer is action.

SCM, I think that prayer is action when the intent is aligned with an accurate purpose.

 

[southcitymom]

hmmmm, isn't CPR a 'medical procedure'? So he could intervene with a medical procedure after she died, but not to keep her from dying? :waitasec:

We're not sure the parents knew she was dying. They say they didn't know she was dying. Perhaps if they had known, they would have chosen medical assistance and prayer. Or perhaps they would have continued to rely on just prayer.

We don't have enough info to determine how it unfolded. I'm sure the DA does, though. Aren't we supposed to hear from the DA today?

 

[scarpetta]

I think it is possible that the road leading to a diabetic coma is not necessarily filled with pain and vomiting.

But for this girl, she was sick enough for concerned relatives to call 911. She was sick enough for them to pray for her recovery.

 

[southcitymom]

SCM, I think that prayer is action when the intent is aligned with an accurate purpose.

Really? - so you would think praying for someone with cancer who had been given a month to live by doctors is not real action? Praying for a friend to come out of a coma without brain damage when doctors have said repeatedly that he will be brain damaged is not action?

Why do we pray in these types of situations then?

Prayer is an action we believe in. We believe in its power. We believe it works and it matters.

 

[southcitymom]

But for this girl, she was sick enough for concerned relatives to call 911. She was sick enough for them to pray for her recovery.

You are right. Do you think their prayer wasn't an action?

 

[scarpetta]

Really? - so you would think praying for someone with cancer who had been given a month to live by doctors is not real action? Praying for a friend to come out of a coma without brain damage when doctors have said repeatedly that he will be brain damaged is not action?

Why do we pray in these types of incidents then?

Prayer is an action we believe in. We believe in its power. We believe it works and it matters.

I said prayer is action.

It is the "We believe in" part that can be grossly inaccurate.

 

[curious1]

We're not sure the parents knew she was dying. They say they didn't know she was dying. Perhaps if they had known, they would have chosen medical assistance and prayer. Or perhaps they would have continued to rely on just prayer.

We don't have enough info to determine how it unfolded. I'm sure the DA does, though. Aren't we supposed to hear from the DA today?

The issue is not that they knew she was dying they may not have, but they did know that she was sick. So if it's okay to perform CPR why was it not okay to take her to get her checked out? I think there may be more to this than we know at the moment.

 

[southcitymom]

Crypto6, in my response to your PM I said that it was my opinion that it would eventually be reported that these parents were especially preoccupied with the Book of Revelation in the Bible and the Apocalypse. I did a search this morning to see if that had been reported yet and here it is. Thought I would post the link for everyone....

"Leilani Neumann told The Associated Press that the family does not belong to any organized religion or faith but believes in the Bible and said that healing comes from God.


There were also two postings under her name on the Web site AmericasLastDays.com, which is operated by Unleavened Bread Ministries, an evangelical ministry that focuses on the apocalypse."



http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20974/madeline-kara-neumann

My Mom goes through heavy-duty religious periods when she believes we're in the last days! I just listen as patiently as I can.....

You may be correct that this mother was especially focused on Revelations - or that might just be part of the whole.

 

[southcitymom]

The issue is not that they knew she was dying they may not have, but they did know that she was sick. So if it's okay to perform CPR why was it not okay to take her to get her checked out? I think there may be more to this than we know at the moment.

They have said "we didn't know she was dying - we thought she was getting better" The Dad has said "I started CPR as soon as saw her life leaving her."

I don't know more than that - truly.

 

[curious1]

It's okay to have faith and pray. More power to you if you do, but not to utilize everything that God has made available to you to help your child is just wrong. The bottom line of this story is....wrapping inaction (outside of prayer) up in faith does not make it right.

 

[southcitymom]

I said prayer is action.

It is the "We believe in" part that can be grossly inaccurate.

By "We" I didn't mean you and me - I'm sorry!

I meant to imply that most Americans and, I would hazard to guess, most people on this thread believe in the power of prayer and do not see prayer as not taking action.

That's all I was saying. We can rightfully say, in our opinion, these folks didn't take enough action, but I don't think we can rightfully say they sat back and did nothing while their daughter died.

Oops - there I go using WE again!

 

[southcitymom]

It's okay to have faith and pray. More power to you if you do, but not to utilize everything that God has made available to you to help your child is just wrong. The bottom line of this story is....wrapping inaction (outside of prayer) up in faith does not make it right.

Well, God has made available a number of vaccines for children and lots of people do not have their children vaccinated - are they wrong to not use every available thing God has given to help their child not catch any number of terrible, fatal diseases? I don't think so - but some may.

 

[scarpetta]

My Mom goes through heavy-duty religious periods when she believes we're in the last days! I just listen as patiently as I can.....

You may be correct that this mother was especially focused on Revelations - or that might just be part of the whole.

SCM, you are very fortunate that you were in a position to just listen patiently as your mother went through her "heavy-duty religious periods." But what if you had been a child in her care while she was going through one of those phases and you became ill for whatever reason? What if you had a serious infection that one single prescription of antibiotics could have cleared up, and your relatives said so, but your mom's "heavy-duty religious periods" caused her to believe that the only thing she was allowed to do was to sit there and pray? Would you have been as patient?

 

[scarpetta]

By "We" I didn't mean you and me - I'm sorry!

I meant to imply that most Americans and, I would hazard to guess, most people on this thread believe in the power of prayer and do not see prayer as not taking action.

That's all I was saying. We can rightfully say, in our opinion, these folks didn't take enough action, but I don't think we can rightfully say they sat back and did nothing while their daughter died.

Oops - there I go using WE again!

SCM, I am probably the one who was unclear, Sorry about that. What I meant by what "We believe in" was not to focus on the "We" in that statement, but on what is being believed. I think that someone can pray all day, but WHAT are they believing is the responsibility of the one they are praying TO? That is the part that I was indicating could be inaccurate. People in hundreds of religions pray. So if it is the act of prayer alone that defines who God is, then really it is the person praying who has designed God and not the other way around.

 

[southcitymom]

SCM, you are very fortunate that you were in a position to just listen patiently as your mother went through her "heavy-duty religious periods." But what if you had been a child in her care while she was going through one of those phases and you became ill for whatever reason? What if you had a serious infection that one single prescription of antibiotics could have cleared up, and your relatives said so, but your mom's "heavy-duty religious periods" caused her to believe that the only thing she was allowed to do was to sit there and pray? Would you have been as patient?

At 11, I was starting to pull away from my parents, but I still accepted pretty whole-cloth what they taught me. Had I been raised like that, I believe at 11 I would have believed and accepted it.