GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[Amraann]

Well, God has made available a number of vaccines for children and lots of people do not have their children vaccinated - are they wrong to not use every available thing God has given to help their child not catch any number of terrible, fatal diseases? I don't think so - but some may.

I think your talking apples and oranges here.
Vaccines are not healthy for all children. Dr's will most often agree.

These people are mentally insane and their child suffered for it.
Had they been doing meth or crack and did not bring their child to a DR we would all be screaming... but because their addiction is religion its ok??

 

[southcitymom]

SCM, I am probably the one who was unclear, Sorry about that. What I meant by what "We believe in" was not to focus on the "We" in that statement, but on what is being believed. I think that someone can pray all day, but WHAT are they believing is the responsibility of the one they are praying TO? That is the part that I was indicating could be inaccurate. People in hundreds of religions pray. So if it is the act of prayer alone that defines who God is, then really it is the person praying who has designed God and not the other way around.

This is absolutely true with the exception of one prayer - "God's will be done" couple with the prayer's knowledge that they do not know what God's will is.

I see what you are saying, scarpetta and I think we are in agreement more than we may know.

Both of us believe this case is a matter of perspective and perception. Based on what I know, I do not believe these parents should be legally punished for the choice they made. You think they should. I very much understand why you think they should. I do not know if I have been clear enough that you understand why I think they should not.

And so the World turns!:blowkiss:

 

[southcitymom]

I think your talking apples and oranges here.
Vaccines are not healthy for all children. Dr's will most often agree.

These people are mentally insane and their child suffered for it.
Had they been doing meth or crack and did not bring their child to a DR we would all be screaming... but because their addiction is religion its ok??

Ah - a whole nother topic! Religious addiction! When does religion become an addiction?

Are you addicted to religion if you believe prayer can heal the sick and you use prayer to do that? If so - I'm an addict! (but you already knew that probably!)

I don't think the vaccine thing is apples and oranges. All major medical organizations say we should vaccinate our children - that is the proper thing to do. And yet - we have the freedom to make a different choice. I support that freedom.

 

[scarpetta]

This is absolutely true with the exception of one prayer - "God's will be done" couple with the prayer's knowledge that they do not know what God's will is.

That's my point SCM. If they had no way of knowing what God's will was....then how did they know that it WASN'T his will for them to take her to a doctor?

 

[southcitymom]

That's my point SCM. If they had no way of knowing what God's will was....then how did they know that it WASN'T his will for them to take her to a doctor?

I think that lies in the fact that we can only really discover God's will for ourselves and, for lack of a better word, our charges. I believe that these parents truly felt they were following God's will for them- and I do not, as yet, believe they are mentally ill.

ETA - for all we know, the only prayer they did offer up was "God's will be done"

 

[scarpetta]

I think that lies in the fact that we can only really discover God's will for ourselves and, for lack of a better word, our charges. I believe that these parents truly felt they were following God's will for them- and I do not, as yet, believe they are mentally ill.

ETA - for all we know, the only prayer they did offer up was "God's will be done"

I am not focusing on the possibility of mental illness. I am talking about their concept of God's will. If they believed that it was God's will for them to restrict their actions to prayer alone, then what they are saying is that they know what God's will was in that situation. Their actions and their words indicate that they had an understanding of God's will when it came to the life of their daughter. They acted on what they believed, and they believed that they knew what God wanted them to do. To sit there and pray.

This logic can't go both ways. One can not claim to just throw their hands up and do nothing but pray because they can never know what God's will is anyway, and then sit there and watch their child die because they know without a doubt that is what God wants them to do.

 

[scarpetta]

That is also what I was trying to point out in what I posted about all the various things that we make, use, eat, wear, and buy. All of those things are remarkably acceptable to people like these parents. Posting that bacteria is used to make the yogurt we eat looks like I am the one is having a "heavy-duty" mental moment.....and yet it is the fact that these parents chose only ONE of those things to single out and decide that God did not want them to have is exactly what cost their daughter to lose her life. It is that pick and choose mentality when it comes to God that largely goes unnoticed, and who really cares if it does? I usually don't, but in this case that same mentality was taken to an extreme and a child died.

 

[southcitymom]

I am not focusing on the possibility of mental illness. I am talking about their concept of God's will. If they believed that it was God's will for them to restrict their actions to prayer alone, then what they are saying is that they know what God's will was in that situation. Their actions and their words indicate that they had an understanding of God's will when it came to the life of their daughter. They acted on what they believed, and they believed that they knew what God wanted them to do. To sit there and pray.

This logic can't go both ways. One can not claim to just throw their hands up and do nothing but pray because they can never know what God's will is anyway, and then sit there and watch their child die because they know without a doubt that is what God wants them to do.

I'm sorry - I'm not following you. I've read this post several times, but it's not sinking into my brain. I am sure this is my intellectual failing as opposed to yours!

I believe these people felt like prayer and God was what would save their daughter, and I believe they put that into practice and had her best interest at heart. And I believe that is their right and they a should not be charged for choosing the course of action that they chose.

As far as God's will - we all do out best to find it for ourselves but that is ofetn easier said than done. I do not see this family trying to cut anything both ways.

 

[southcitymom]

That is also what I was trying to point out in what I posted about all the various things that we make, use, eat, wear, and buy. All of those things are remarkably acceptable to people like these parents. Posting that bacteria is used to make the yogurt we eat looks like I am the one is having a "heavy-duty" mental moment.....and yet it is the fact that these parents chose only ONE of those things to single out and decide that God did not want them to have is exactly what cost their daughter to lose her life. It is that pick and choose mentality when it comes to God that largely goes unnoticed, and who really cares if it does? I usually don't, but in this case that same mentality was taken to an extreme and a child died.

Scarpetta - all religion is a pick and choose mentality. IMHO, these parents's beliefs don't make any more or less sense in terms of contradictions than many of our oldest, most noble mainstream churches.

 

[scarpetta]

Scarpetta - all religion is a pick and choose mentality. IMHO, these parents's beliefs don't make any more or less sense in terms of contradictions than many of our oldest, most noble mainstream churches.

I could not agree with you more. And since that is used as a defense to describe what these parents were doing....then couldn't they just "pick and choose" to believe that it was "God's will" to take her to the doctor? Why did they "pick and choose" the option that killed her when they had so many other "pick and choose" options?

 

[scarpetta]

I might be able to make that post that was hard to understand a little clearer. Here is the definition of the word "will" as in "God's will."

"the wish or purpose as carried out, or to be carried out"

Their actions indicated that they knew what God wished them to carry out.

They believed that God desired or wished that they would sit there and pray instead of taking her to the doctor.

You are saying that you can never know what God actually wishes we would do.

These parents said otherwise.

They said that they knew that God wished they would stay in that house and pray. They indicated in their actions that they knew that that was ALL God wished they would do.

Maybe you don't know what God's will is or what he wishes you would do SCM, but THESE people indicated that they do.

 

[scarpetta]

This really is the core of the issue isn't it? I am enjoying the fact that you are so willing to dive in as I am and discuss this. This is not an easy topic because it is a topic that is generally viewed as deeply personal to each individual regardless of the differences in how they go about it. So thank you for being so willing, as I am, to put yourself out there and talk about it SCM.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

:crazy: A few things I want to say, for their important to know. I'm getting ready to share true testimony as I've lived and witnessed it to be a truth in my very own life.

My very own brother, named Tony Baloney, just kidding, I added the baloney part, was diagnosed juvenile diabetic at the tender young age of 8. A lifetime of ups and downs, diabetic comas, sicknesses, weaknesses, mood swings, his health was like a never ending roller coaster. It came and went that fast from healthy one moment to be almost ruled dead many many times.

Tony macaroni was a real brother to me, he lost his life on valentines day February 14, 1991 taking with him the best brother a girl could ever pray for. Throughout his wearisome life he battled so much, one minute he would be fine, the next in a severe coma and pronounced dead and brought back to life over and over again.
I personally observed so many occassions of how this sickness operates, and anyone could make a wrong judgement call in making decisions as to medical care concerning them. Sometimes it could be a candy bar, a simple glass of juice and that's all it would take to give him back his very life.

These parents of this girl probably for the first time in their lives had to parent a sickly child. I have a daughter born with five disorders and I can tell ya I learned along the way, She didn't come with a manual, just a soul that needed love and nurturing.

At times, Tony's insulin was his worse enemy causing more harm than good, even so much as nearly killing him several times when he would become immune to a certain type insulin, and then need to be changed or the dosage changed. I believe in my heart, if my brother would of had a praying sister at the time, he would be alive today and no one can tell me differently.

Let me tell ya why, I've seen every healing that is imaginable done with my very own eyes, the only thing I personally have not beared witness to in the spirit realm is being given the opportunity to see the dead raised. And I do know a few that have witnessed that.

As a daughter of the living God, I have a spiritual gift of ministry of healing, and I have seen the Lord grow a little boys right leg approximately one and a half inches sitting in a waiting room at the federal building who was with his mother renewing his disability benefits and I obeyed the Lord in this way. The mother came in with said son, the shoe on the leg that wasn't grown out as long as the left leg was untied. I could tell she was crass and maybe probably tired of dealing with a disabled son. She wasn't tired of the Government check though, it seared my spirit as she spoke to this little boy. The Lord spoke to me and said, "Lean down and tie his right shoe for him." I did. Lo and behold, My stepfather who was sitting beside me as we were waiting to see the judge concerning his disability, poked me in my arm and said, "Look", the little boys leg grew. I couldn't believe it. A miracle happened right there on West Evans Street in Florence South Carolina in the McMillian Federal Building. This little boy stood up and walked into the court room with his mom and her attorney, no longer limping. The mother hadn't even noticed. The little boy looked around and just stared at me with gratitude for this innocent young child wasn't lost on what had happened, he was clued in and he was healed. Praise God.

Now I have also seen a woman place into a coma in my church, so I'll go there next, so yes, the Lord does too place people in states of all kinds of conciousness', I've seen it. Peace!

 

[southcitymom]

.....Maybe you don't know what God's will is or what he wishes you would do SCM, but THESE people indicated that they do.

Yes - I understand that. But in my life there have been plenty of times when I thought I was doing God's will and, in hindsight, I probably was not. Our opinions on what might be God's will are allowed to (and often should!) change!

 

[southcitymom]

I could not agree with you more. And since that is used as a defense to describe what these parents were doing....then couldn't they just "pick and choose" to believe that it was "God's will" to take her to the doctor? Why did they "pick and choose" the option that killed her when they had so many other "pick and choose" options?

Scarpetta, I don't believe they were "picking and choosing" the option that killed her! They picked and chose the option they thought was most likely to save her life.

I believe that they believed they were doing the best thing for her. I believe, on any given day, the choice/option of prayer could have saved this young girl's physical life. It did not happen this time, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to throw out prayer and a belief in a God who heals (with or without man's assistance) as a valid choice for parents to make when raising their children.

 

[southcitymom]

...... I've seen every healing that is imaginable done with my very own eyes, the only thing I personally have not beared witness to in the spirit realm is being given the opportunity to see the dead raised. And I do know a few that have witnessed that......

I've seen amazing healing through prayer too, Kool - and just on Yahoo the other day, they had a long interview with a 26-year-old man who had been pronounced dead as a doornail repeatedly by doctors, but he was alive and well and giving an interview. People come back from the dead, are raised from the dead. Like you, I don't have a lot of personal experience with that, but there is enough "proof" out there for me to believe it happens.

Thanks also for the backup with the coma/deep sleep/differing states of consciousness thing - I do think our bodies can be put into such states to help us to heal.

 

[scarpetta]

KOOL LOOK, I have a couple of questions and I want to let you know that I am asking these questions so that I will understand you, and not asking them so that you will understand me.

I am sorry you lost your brother and I don't want my questions to subtract from what I already acknowledge as a loss. You said that if your brother would have had a sister who was praying for him at the time he would have survived his illness and that no one can tell you otherwise. I am not going to tell you otherwise, I would like to ask you about it instead. It sounds like you are saying that God allowed your brother to die because no one around your brother asked God to keep him alive. Is that what you are saying?

I am also wondering if the boy's leg grew 1 1/2" immediately or if there was a gap in between your prayer and the growth of his leg. In other words, how long after you tied his shoe did his leg start to grow? I am asking this because you were not the one who first noticed it had grown or was growing, so it did not happen while you were actually tying his shoe. I am curious about the amount of time it took to begin to grow.

I am also wondering what you think the reason is for God not using you to heal your step-father's disability since he was sitting right next to the boy and could have been healed at the same time. I am tying this into your previous statement about God not sparing your brother because you did not know you were supposed to pray for him. If awareness is the key to healing, then I am wondering why the only man aware of what God was doing in that disability office was also the one who was not healed.

 

[Thundar]

This story isn't that much different than when individuals refuse to receive blood because of religious reasons. I am very sad that this young girl died. I am sure that her family is questioning their decision to pray alone instead of combining that with a Doctor's help. But maybe not, depending on what they actually believe maybe they think her death is God's will.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

KOOL LOOK, I have a couple of questions and I want to let you know that I am asking these questions so that I will understand you, and not asking them so that you will understand me.

Scarpetta, I appreciate your sincere gesture in asking as kindly as you have and their great questions and worthy to be answered. The Lord also told me he appreciated how you asked and there will be a Blessing for you because of the gentleness you chose to use.

I am sorry you lost your brother and I don't want my questions to subtract from what I already acknowledge as a loss. You said that if your brother would have had a sister who was praying for him at the time he would have survived his illness and that no one can tell you otherwise. I am not going to tell you otherwise, I would like to ask you about it instead. It sounds like you are saying that God allowed your brother to die because no one around your brother asked God to keep him alive. Is that what you are saying?

In essence, yes. No one, not one, prayed the entire time we were all beginning to gather in the emergency room waiting area awaiting news, reports of his condition in and out. Actually he was pronounced dead by ems on the scene before he was brought to the er. Then the er poked a hole in his only good lung when trying to do emergency procedures on him to get oxygen back into his body. The other lung we learned had a little pnuemonia in it. My family is awesome, believed in God, but didn't know and understand the very nature of God. I love my mother with all my heart, but she didn't teach me how to pray or have an intimate relationship with the Lord. Quiet the contrare, I've taught her. Praise God. And my whole rebellious family, I drug em every step of the way cuz I lub their very souls and my family is going to spend eternity with me in paradise whether they like it or not.

In order to answer you, I must say this. We have to know the very nature of God in order to understand how things work in the spirit realm and in Kingdom matters. It's not anything like our natural physical earthly world we dwell in. Everything does happen in the spirit realm before it happens in the physical realm. Another mis-understood aspect about living and dying is: God doesn't take peoples lives. He receives us. It's never never never the will of God for anyone to die out of season. My brothers young life ended out of season, but it was his life and God honors all his promises for he's never changing and steadfast. I don't know how long Tony would have lived thereafter, but I know the Lord would have shown mercy and raised my brother up, all I or anyone has to do is call upon him. It's not a mystery. It's not for the dedicated true christian, it's for everyone to behold and have. All he asks is for us to ask. No big mysteries, no special rank in his kingdom, he's God and he's your God and he's my God and he will never not answer you.

It took me dwelling in the secret places of the most high God to begin to walk in understanding and wisdom, I've grown up a little in Christ so I'm not a babe, even though at times I do have childish ways. And I do mess up. Scarpetta, my Tony would have lived for my God wouldn't have sent home a broken hearted weeping girl (me) and a mother devasted and not placed his loving hand on Tony and touch his body. God is good. God is good all the time. God is absolute good. God can be found in good.
I am also wondering if the boy's leg grew 1 1/2" immediately or if there was a gap in between your prayer and the growth of his leg. In other words, how long after you tied his shoe did his leg start to grow? I am asking this because you were not the one who first noticed it had grown or was growing, so it did not happen while you were actually tying his shoe. I am curious about the amount of time it took to begin to grow.

I am also wondering what you think the reason is for God not using you to heal your step-father's disability since he was sitting right next to the boy and could have been healed at the same time. I am tying this into your previous statement about God not sparing your brother because you did not know you were supposed to pray for him. If awareness is the key to healing, then I am wondering why the only man aware of what God was doing in that disability office was also the one who was not healed.

This lad's leg grew within a thirty minute period sometime while waiting in the area. As I touched his ankles on both sides before tying the shoelaces as instructed of the Lord, I was praying for the mother to have a more merciful heart towards this young fella. As usual, my Lord always does me one better. That's how we know scarpetta it's of the Lord. We do get confirmations and affirmations. When God blesses, he blesses. It's an abundance, an overflow and we're in it and everyone around gets touched and blessed too for having been associated or near the annointed blessings. That was my confirmation, I was praying the Lord would cause mommy to be more merciful and his leg to straighten, and God did up one better.

Lynard, my stepfather, was actually there to get approved for back payment, because he became of retirement age while awaiting his disability which took over five years to process and get the hearing. We met with the lawyer, first time for me, the day before the hearing. This lawyer needed to be hose whipped for what he had not done in those two years, and what he had done was so screwed up it was unbelievable. He didn't do anything to benefit lynards case.

So as I left his office that day, he wanted me there because he wanted to prepare me for the stand at the hearing the next day. I left his office and all that came to my spirit was, "I prayed that the judge would sit on the seat of mercy as he ruled on my stepfathers behalf. I couldn't even muster up enough faith to ask for anything else for this lawyer had everything so messed up and our only option was to wait two more years, and get another lawyer.

This is another testimony. The lawyer goes into the court room without us. Is in there with judge and court reporter, social security's lawyer and for over thirty minutes we heard nothing.

As we waited, the Lord began to speak again, "mercy will rule and reign today in this place". All of a sudden, the lawyer comes out a grinnin from ear to ear. The judge didn't rule in favor of LYnard due to the facts of the case, he ruled in favor of Lynard because quote from the judge,

"It bothers me a senior citizen in our country who's worked their whole life, doesn't have insurance to cover doctors visits, hospital stay and the ability to buy their medicine, this is wrong. "I rule to back pay Lynard two years, and to establish his medicare for all the rest of the days of his life". It was because Lynard had not the monies left over out of his small retirement monthly to be able to afford health care and medicine that caused mercy to rule and reign. Praise God.

Lynard developed cancer their shortly after, his dibilatating conditions were passing out, high blood pressure and severe headaches that he suffered that began right after my husband was killed a year after losing my brother. Lynard has now been cancer free for over one year now. This girl prayed, I didn't get out of God's face til he gave me an answer and my Lord answereth my prayers. My stepfather has no more dizziness, headaches, or cancer. People need to know this also. The Lord told me he would heal Lynard if Lynard would forgive everyone that ever offended and done him wrong. We prayed together for this forgiveness and he was healed.
Scarpetta, I appreciate you and I want you to know I'm not anymore special than you are. The Lord told me, "You're the apple of his eye".

I guess I can say all of this since this thread is about religion, though I'm not a religious person, just a spirit filled one.

 

[scarpetta]

Scarpetta, I don't believe they were "picking and choosing" the option that killed her! They picked and chose the option they thought was most likely to save her life.

I believe that they believed they were doing the best thing for her. I believe, on any given day, the choice/option of prayer could have saved this young girl's physical life. It did not happen this time, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to throw out prayer and a belief in a God who heals (with or without man's assistance) as a valid choice for parents to make when raising their children.

SCM, I also don't think that these parents should throw out prayer or a belief in God. So we agree on that.

I also did not say that they chose an option with the intent to kill her.

You said that all the religions practice a "pick and choose" method.

I agreed.

That is an accepted practice.

That means that the "picking and choosing" is ok with most people.

If the picking and choosing method is ok, then that must mean that what you pick and what you choose is left up to individuals to decide, and not some set in stone belief that everyone has to abide by.

So if it is ok and widely accepted for individuals to decide that on their own and STILL be doing "God's will" then that means that ALL of them are doing "God's will" regardless of which option they choose.

If the parents of this child believed that too then they could have chosen any number of options and would have still been doing what God wanted them to do.

Maybe someone could say that we don't actually know what these parents believe so how can we know that.

But we DO know what they believed.

The relative that called 911 called because of a serious worry about the daughters condition. She said the parents would likely fight any medical intervention because of what they BELIEVE.

Did the parents themselves indicate what they believe? Yes, they did.

If all options are ok to exercise as long as you believe that is what God wants you to do, then what I was saying is that they could have chosen ANY option, including taking her to the doctor, and would have still been in "God's will." But that is not what they believed. They believed that there was only ONE option on this planet that they were required to exercise even at the expense of their daughter's well being. That is what they picked, and chose.