GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[scarpetta]

KOOL LOOK, thank you for your post, it was very kind and you took the time to explain what you believe. Regardless of what I believe or you believe about the identity of God and how that is applied in our everyday lives, you just can't beat genuine kindness, can you? That always goes a long way no matter the differences.

 

[southcitymom]

..... They believed that there was only ONE option on this planet that they were required to exercise even at the expense of their daughter's well being. That is what they picked, and chose.

We agree on a lot here - that is to be sure. I am not convinced they believed there was only one option to help their daughter heal. I'm not convinced that they did anything at the expense of her well-being.

They made a choice to try to bring about healing with prayer. This seems to be in keeping with what we know of their lifestyle and beliefs. The choice they made did not work for their daughter and she died.

Now, if they had taken their daughter to the hospital and then she died (for whatever reason - someone making a mistake, just because - whatever) we wouldn't criticize their choice and that, I think, is because most of us have more faith in the healing capacities of Western medicine than in the healing capacities of prayer.

I can accept that most of us feel this way. I've said earlier that I will hedge my faith-in-a-Higher-Power bets with whatever earthly sources are available to me almost everytime. But I do not believe this should be a requirement for people.

It seems to me that in this case, people want to talk out of both sides of their mouth. Out of one side they want to say - "Hell yes - prayer works. I've seen it work and I believe in its power" and out of the other side they want to say, "But you're really stupid if you believe that 100%."

In my view, it seems to me that people who think what these parents did was negligent are people who don't believe God can heal directly through prayer. I'm way okay with people feeling that way, but it's not the way I feel.

 

[southcitymom]

KOOL LOOK, thank you for your post, it was very kind and you took the time to explain what you believe. Regardless of what I believe or you believe about the identity of God and how that is applied in our everyday lives, you just can't beat genuine kindness, can you? That always goes a long way no matter the differences.

Too true, sister!

I hope you will post any new news you might find about this case. I have not uncovered anything else today.

 

[Truly]

We agree on a lot here - that is to be sure. I am not convinced they believed there was only one option to help their daughter heal. I'm not convinced that they did anything at the expense of her well-being.

They made a choice to try to bring about healing with prayer. This seems to be in keeping with what we know of their lifestyle and beliefs. The choice they made did not work for their daughter and she died.

Now, if they had taken their daughter to the hospital and then she died (for whatever reason - someone making a mistake, just because - whatever) we wouldn't criticize their choice and that, I think, is because most of us have more faith in the healing capacities of Western medicine than in the healing capacities of prayer.

I can accept that most of us feel this way. I've said earlier that I will hedge my faith-in-a-Higher-Power bets with whatever earthly sources are available to me almost everytime. But I do not believe this should be a requirement for people.

It seems to me that in this case, people want to talk out of both sides of their mouth. Out of one side they want to say - "Hell yes - prayer works. I've seen it work and I believe in its power" and out of the other side they want to say, "But you're really stupid if you believe that 100%."

In my view, it seems to me that people who think what these parents did was negligent are people who don't believe God can heal directly through prayer. I'm way okay with people feeling that way, but it's not the way I feel.

If they had taken their daughter to a hospital, a doctor would have more than likely diagnosed the diabetes and saved the child with a simple regulation of her blood sugar. I think that it is reasonable to agree that a person with medical training is better equipped to diagnose and treat medical emergencies than say, this girl's mother, who works pouring coffee. ( Conversely, if I want a good cup of coffee, I'd go to a coffee shop, not a hospital. )

If the child had been taken to a doctor and diagnosed with diabetes, and the parents still refused to allow her life to be saved, what would that be called? Negligent...abusive...murder?

I wonder, in all the years that her father was a police officer, if he ever had occasion to radio for an ambulance. I would be curious to discover whether he called for medical help, or if he just sat there and 'prayed' until the people he was hired to assist died before attempting to help them.

 

[southcitymom]

....I think that it is reasonable to agree that a person with medical training is better equipped to diagnose and treat medical emergencies than say this girl's mother, who works puring coffee...

Yes - it is reasonable to agree to this! Is it reasonable to agree that God might even be better equipped to diagnose and treat a medical emergency than a human with medical training?

That - to me - is the crux of the matter.

Was it reasonable for these parents to believe God could heal their daughter without oustide assistance? I think it was.

 

[Truly]

Yes - it is reasonable to agree to this! Is it reasonable to agree that God might even be better equipped to diagnose and treat a medical emergency than a human with medical training?

That - to me - is the crux of the matter.

Was it reasonable for these parents to believe God could heal their daughter without oustide assistance? I think it was.

People can believe that their God (and their God alone, not anybody else's God:crazy: ) created kidneys. But this is the first I've heard that God invented dialysis! I have never actually heard someone claim that their God routinely diagnoses and treats failing kidneys. And, as a matter of fact, in this case, even with the parents' extreme beliefs, did their God rush in and offer them a diagnosis? Did He/She treat the medical emergency? No.

I think that these parents lack what most people refer to as "the ability to reason".

 

[sherri79]

Yes - it is reasonable to agree to this! Is it reasonable to agree that God might even be better equipped to diagnose and treat a medical emergency than a human with medical training?

That - to me - is the crux of the matter.

Was it reasonable for these parents to believe God could heal their daughter without oustide assistance? I think it was.

i agree with every argument you have made on a spiritual level. if god had a plan for this child and wanted her alive the prayer would have worked. if god wanted this child with him nothing could have saved her. i personally think god does not often involve himself in our lives other than to guide. most of our lives are based on free will. i can understand that other may not have the same beliefs as me and that is fine.

for me this is not a religous question but a legal one. if a child has a medical emergency does a parent have a legal responcablity to seek medical help? if they fail to do so is it neglect.?

spell check is down and i am to tired to care. sorry for the special spelling.

 

[Truly]

Good point, sherri; it is a legal question. I would take it a step further though and ask, 'Does a person ever have the right to force their religious beliefs on another to the point of death?' I think the answer is a resounding "No, they do not!'

A person would be charged with murder if they took their child to the top of a mountain and offered the child as a sacrifice to their god. It is certainly possible that these extremist parents allowed the child to die because they viewed her illness as their god imposing a punishment on the child. The poor kid. At least she doesn't have to suffer at the hands of her parents any longer.

 

[sherri79]

Good point, sherri; it is a legal question. I would take it a step further though and ask, 'Does a person ever have the right to force their religious beliefs on another to the point of death?' I think the answer is a resounding "No, they do not!'

A person would be charged with murder if they took their child to the top of a mountain and offered the child as a sacrifice to their god. It is certainly possible that these extremist parents allowed the child to die because they viewed her illness as their god imposing a punishment on the child. The poor kid. At least she doesn't have to suffer at the hands of her parents any longer.

in a case where the parents intend the child to die everyone would agree it is against the law. in this case we have no evidence the parent wanted the child dead. in fact we have evidence they wanted the child to live. they prayed and it did not work so they asked more people to pray. when the child stopped breathing they began cpr and called 911.

 

[Vegas Bride]

Yes - it is reasonable to agree to this! Is it reasonable to agree that God might even be better equipped to diagnose and treat a medical emergency than a human with medical training?

That - to me - is the crux of the matter.

Was it reasonable for these parents to believe God could heal their daughter without oustide assistance? I think it was.

But did they really believe God would cure her? If they did, then why did the father begin the CPR? Why not keep leaving it in God's hands, believing prayer was all that was needed?

VB

 

[scarpetta]

It seems to me that in this case, people want to talk out of both sides of their mouth. Out of one side they want to say - "Hell yes - prayer works. I've seen it work and I believe in its power" and out of the other side they want to say, "But you're really stupid if you believe that 100%."

SCM, I really like this statement that you made and I kept thinking about that this evening and kept trying to figure out how I would respond when I got home. I think you are right when you say that people who believe in the power of prayer to heal someone should believe it 100% or not at all.

This has made me wonder if that should be based on the one doing the healing; the one you are praying to. We have been talking about the amount and type of responsibility that these parents had for their child. That will even be decided by our legal system. How responsible were they and did they adequately fulfill their responsibilities?

But what about the different beliefs about how responsible God is for US?
Some religions believe that He is responsible for even the smallest of details, and other religions believe that he is not that personally involved in the lives of individuals at all, but rather is a presence to be reached for.

If these parents believed that God had the full responsibility of healing their daughter then they acted as they should have, right? I think that is what you are saying and tell me if it is not.

But I am still left wondering why they chose healing as something that their God is responsible for, but they have excluded so many other things that they obviously feel are their own responsibility?

What criteria do people like this use to determine what God is responsible for and what is up to them to accomplish by their own effort? I am not saying that these same people don't ask God to help them to accomplish those things, I am sure they do. But the point is, how did they decided what is God's responsibility alone, and what needs to be accomplished through their own abilities, efforts, and thinking?

 

[scarpetta]

in a case where the parents intend the child to die everyone would agree it is against the law. in this case we have no evidence the parent wanted the child dead. in fact we have evidence they wanted the child to live. they prayed and it did not work so they asked more people to pray. when the child stopped breathing they began cpr and called 911.

Sherri79, if I was your sister and we were out shopping and you collapsed right there in the store and you were breathing but unconscious, and I believed as these parents believe about healing being the responsibility of God alone, what would I do? If I tried to drag or carry you out of the store and to the car, would that be intervention that God should only be responsible for? Should I leave you on the floor and stand there in the store praying until you got up? I know that might sound ridiculous but it's not really when you are trying to decide where that line is supposed to be drawn determining what is human intervention and what is not.

Maybe someone would say that it would certainly be ok to carry you out of the store because that is not trying to heal you, it is trying to move you from one location to the next. Ok, then anything beyond moving you is intervening in God's territory? What do you think?

 

[sherri79]

Sherri79, if I was your sister and we were out shopping and you collapsed right there in the store and you were breathing but unconscious, and I believed as these parents believe about healing being the responsibility of God alone, what would I do? If I tried to drag or carry you out of the store and to the car, would that be intervention that God should only be responsible for? Should I leave you on the floor and stand there in the store praying until you got up? I know that might sound ridiculous but it's not really when you are trying to decide where that line is supposed to be drawn determining what is human intervention and what is not.

Maybe someone would say that it would certainly be ok to carry you out of the store because that is not trying to heal you, it is trying to move you from one location to the next. Ok, then anything beyond moving you is intervening in God's territory? What do you think?

i think we can not know the mind of god. even the most devout can have doubts at some point. i think these parents thought god would heal her if they had enough faith. to call a doctor would be a lack of faith and god would not heal her. my guess in reading the mind of the parents is the mother had faith as still does. she thinks god may still bring her daughter back from the death. the father had faith until put to the ultimate test. his child stopped breathing.

i do not believe as this family does. i do believe god guides us and can heal the sick but allows free will and rarely changes the normal path of human life. i might be right or maybe this family is right. the thing about faith is proof is in the eye of the beholder. in this country we can practice whatever faith we want but we must still obey the laws of man. these parents fail to provide the basic things their child needed to live. that is child neglect in my eyes.

if you were my sister and events happened the way you say i would hope you would begin to doubt your faith and call 911. if god does not want me to go to a hospital your phone wont work.

 

[scarpetta]

if you were my sister and events happened the way you say i would hope you would begin to doubt your faith and call 911. if god does not want me to go to a hospital your phone wont work.

:clap: What a great answer! LOL!! My faith would be in my ability to use what I already have available to get you what you need.

 

[sherri79]

What criteria do people like this use to determine what God is responsible for and what is up to them to accomplish by their own effort? I am not saying that these same people don't ask God to help them to accomplish those things, I am sure they do. But the point is, how did they decided what is God's responsibility alone, and what needs to be accomplished through their own abilities, efforts, and thinking?

i think they read the part of the bible that speaks of christ healing the sick and take it to mean if you pray he will heal you. my understanding is that is the only thing they read that way. why they do not read mana from heaven to mean god will provide free food i do not know. i do not judge their faith just their actions.

 

[Diamond]

Re: Vaccination

IMO, it's not comparable...unless the child who went without the vaccine becomes ill and doesn't get, obviously needed, medical treatment. I don't think refusing vaccines means you automatically refuse medical care for your child. I have faith and believe in prayer, but I know my children's care depends on me.

 

[scarpetta]

i think they read the part of the bible that speaks of christ healing the sick and take it to mean if you pray he will heal you. my understanding is that is the only thing they read that way. why they do not read mana from heaven to mean god will provide free food i do not know. i do not judge their faith just their actions.

So it is "God's will" to heal people today, and the faithful are supposed to wait on that instead of using a doctor. And they believe this because Jesus healed people in the Bible.

But the parts in the Bible where Jesus indicated that people are supposed to trust God to provide for ALL of their needs no longer applies.

I am big on citing sources, so the same should apply to me when I toss a statement out there. Here are those "parts" in the Bible I referred to...

Matthew 6:25
Matthew 6:26
Matthew 10:9-10
Mark 6:8-10
Luke 9:3
Luke 12:22
Luke 12:24

 

[scarpetta]

Re: Vaccination

IMO, it's not comparable...unless the child who went without the vaccine becomes ill and doesn't get, obviously needed, medical treatment. I don't think refusing vaccines means you automatically refuse medical care for your child. I have faith and believe in prayer, but I know my children's care depends on me.

That's a really good point Diamond. Prevention not being the same as treatment.

 

[Truly]

in a case where the parents intend the child to die everyone would agree it is against the law. in this case we have no evidence the parent wanted the child dead. in fact we have evidence they wanted the child to live. they prayed and it did not work so they asked more people to pray. when the child stopped breathing they began cpr and called 911.

We do not actually have any evidence that they were praying for the child to live.

They may well have been praying for the child to die if they were some kind of religious wackos who believed that the cause of the child's illness was some sort of punishment from a vindictive god.

They did not do anything to try and save the child. They did not call 911 or take any action to attempt to save her life until after the child was already dead. That's a bit too late. They denied this child a chance to live because of their extremist beliefs, when a simple medical diagnosis could have easily saved her life. They basically killed her by refusing to help her. Then they just sat there for weeks and watched her suffer and die. All the while ignoring her suffering. They should be prosecuted for murder.

 

[sherri79]

We do not actually have any evidence that they were praying for the child to live.

They may well have been praying for the child to die if they were some kind of religious wackos who believed that the cause of the child's illness was some sort of punishment from a vindictive god.

They did not do anything to try and save the child. They did not call 911 or take any action to attempt to save her life until after the child was already dead. That's a bit too late. They denied this child a chance to live because of their extremist beliefs, when the child could have easily been saved by a simple medical diagnosis.

we have no evidence that they wanted her dead. if we are given facts like that fine charge them with murder. with the facts we have they did not want her dead. changing the facts will change my feeling but without that i still say it is only neglect that they are guilty of.