GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[Truly]

we have no evidence that they wanted her dead. if we are given facts like that fine charge them with murder. with the facts we have they did not want her dead. changing the facts will change my feeling but without that i still say it is only neglect that they are guilty of.

She would be alive if the parents had tried, even in the slightest, to keep her alive. There are no facts as to what they were praying for. But most extremist religious factions worship a god of vengance, not a god of love. Most rational people would assume that a parent would do anything and everything in their power to keep their child alive. These parents failed that test. They just sat there and watched her die. That is not normal human behaviour. Extremist religious attitudes have killed more life than anything else in history. Everyone has their own beliefs. No one is entitled to force their beliefs on another to the point of death. Especially a parent, who is supposed to protect the life of a child. These parents just sat there and watched their child die and did nothing. I am glad the aunt called police.

 

[sherri79]

She would be alive if the parents had tried, even in the slightest, to keep her alive. There are no facts as to what they were praying for. But most extremist religious factions worship a god of vengence, not a god of love. Most rational people would assume that a parent would do anything in their power to keep their child alive. These parents failed that test.

we can never be sure she would have lived. these parents still think she may rise from the dead so i think it is wrong to assume they wanted her harmed just because i do not agree with their form of faith.

 

[scarpetta]

“The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, Leilani Neumann said.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/madeline-neumann-11year_n_93903.html


Mrs. Neumann said that her method comes directly from the Bible, and her method of doing nothing but praying is what the Bible indicates God wants. So here are methods of healing in the Bible that do not include just sitting there and praying. I am including this because of the parents’ reason they have given for what they did, or their source….

“Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.”

"The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see."

“Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, "Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.….. But Naaman went away angry and said, "I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy….. Naaman's servants went to him and said, ‘My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, 'Wash and be cleansed'! So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.”

 

[Truly]

we can never be sure she would have lived. these parents still think she may rise from the dead so i think it is wrong to assume they wanted her harmed just because i do not agree with their form of faith.

She had a treatable form of diabetes. She would have lived.

Rise from the dead??????????????????????????????????????????????

Oh, sure, then it's ok to kill a kid because they will just hop back up and be a regular little kid again???????????????????????????????????????

That is not a 'form of faith'. That is murder.

Why don't all of these parents test the waters themselves first? Then, when they "rise from the dead", they can raise their kids to adulthood before asking if the child wishes to die. Let's see how that works out.

 

[sherri79]

She had a treatable form of diabetes. She would have lived.

Rise from the dead??????????????????????????????????????????????

Oh, sure, then it's ok to kill a kid because they will just hop back up and be a regular little kid again???????????????????????????????????????

That is not a 'form of faith'. That is murder.

Why don't all of these parents test the waters themselves first? Then, when they "rise from the dead", they can raise their kids to adulthood before asking if the child wishes to die. Let's see how that works out.

it is easy to believe in things you can see. faith is believing in the impossible. these parents showed by their actions that they wanted their child to live. they asked friends over to pray with them and called relatives to help with the prayers. when they saw what they thought of as proof their prayers would not be answered they called 911. i do not agree with what they did but i can understand the fact they simply believed something i did not. i do not think your faith should excuse you from your actions.

 

[Truly]

it is easy to believe in things you can see. faith is believing in the impossible. these parents showed by their actions that they wanted their child to live. they asked friends over to pray with them and called relatives to help with the prayers. when they saw what they thought of as proof their prayers would not be answered they called 911. i do not agree with what they did but i can understand the fact they simply believed something i did not. i do not think your faith should excuse you from your actions.

They did not show by their actions that they wanted their child to live. They took no concrete action to make sure their child remained alive. They did nothing to save the child's life; that is the whole point here.

None of us knows what a cult described as 'obscure' was praying for. They could just as easily have been praying for their god to kill the child if they believed that the child fell ill because their nasty god told them that children are evil sinners...Who knows what their rationale was for standing by while their own child died a horrible death in front of their eyes while they did nothing to help her?

We might assume that they prayed for the child to live because we are good people and that is what most of us would pray for.

But these particular parents and their friends did nothing to help the child until the child was dead. That is way too late to call 911.

I hear clearly what you are saying, sherri. I do not excuse them either. I would have given them the benefit of the doubt if the child was not dead. Why don't these parents just die and be resurrected themselves if their faith demands it?

But leave the kids alive to grow up and decide for themselves what they believe in.

It is not faith; it is cowardice. And in this case, it is murder.

 

[willow]

I have a question and I haven't seen it posted or refered to in any of these threads.

Is the mother or father of this little girl diabetic? Siblings? Grandparents? I'm really curious about this.

I think the answer to this is important. JMO

 

[southcitymom]

i agree with every argument you have made on a spiritual level. if god had a plan for this child and wanted her alive the prayer would have worked. if god wanted this child with him nothing could have saved her. i personally think god does not often involve himself in our lives other than to guide. most of our lives are based on free will. i can understand that other may not have the same beliefs as me and that is fine.

for me this is not a religous question but a legal one. if a child has a medical emergency does a parent have a legal responcablity to seek medical help? if they fail to do so is it neglect.?

spell check is down and i am to tired to care. sorry for the special spelling.

Hey Sherri - you and I are on the same page, it seems. I consider all such things from a spiritual/relihious standpoint because I can't ever separate that out of the rest of my life.

I believe the religious question here falls under freedom of practice of religion. Thus far, we have no laws that state a parent has to seek what we consider to be appropriate medical care for their child. I believe we should not have such laws. I believe families have the right to believe and practice that God heals directly without outside human help.

Now - I'm not the DA or a legal expert, so we will see where this lands.

 

[southcitymom]

They did not show by their actions that they wanted their child to live. They took no concrete action to make sure their child remained alive. They did nothing to save the child's life; that is the whole point here.

......

Truly,

Prayer is a concrete action. In order to heal their child, they took a very concrete action that many people take and use regularly in all aspects of their lives.

You may consider prayer "doing nothing" but I think you would be in the minority. In this country, we have freedom to practice our religious beliefs as we see fit - and prayer is not a bizarre religious practice - it's fairly commonplace.

 

[southcitymom]

it is easy to believe in things you can see. faith is believing in the impossible. these parents showed by their actions that they wanted their child to live. they asked friends over to pray with them and called relatives to help with the prayers. when they saw what they thought of as proof their prayers would not be answered they called 911. i do not agree with what they did but i can understand the fact they simply believed something i did not. i do not think your faith should excuse you from your actions.

I'll just stop posting now, sherri - you're saying what I've been trying to say, but - as usual - with more clarity and brevity!:blowkiss:

 

[southcitymom]

I have a question and I haven't seen it posted or refered to in any of these threads.

Is the mother or father of this little girl diabetic? Siblings? Grandparents? I'm really curious about this.

I think the answer to this is important. JMO

I don't know the answer to this, willow. Why would that information be important to you?

 

[Truly]

Truly,

Prayer is a concrete action. In order to heal their child, they took a very concrete action that many people take and use regularly in all aspects of their lives.

You may consider prayer "doing nothing" but I think you would be in the minority. In this country, we have freedom to practice our religious beliefs as we see fit - and prayer is not a bizarre religious practice - it's fairly commonplace.

There are definitely legal limits to freedoms. The basic rule is "Your freedom to swing your fist stops at the tip of my nose." You are not permitted to stone someone to death because you think your god told you to do so. You are not allowed to force your beliefs on others, especially when the end result causes harm or death to another.

What if the child had starved to death and the parents explained that they just sat idly by and prayed that god would feed the child, yet made no effort to feed the child themselves? The parents would be responsible for the death of the child. What about the parents who left the baby in the carseat to starve to death? Do you think that they should not be prosecuted if they simply claim that they believed that god was supposed to feed and change the baby?

I never said that prayer was 'a bizarre religious practice'. Watching your child die and doing nothing to try and save her life while expecting god to diagnose and treat her diabetes is, however, a bizarre religious practice.

 

[southcitymom]

There are definite legal limits to freedoms. The basic rule is "Your freedom to swing your fist stops at the tip of my nose." You are not permitted to stone someone to death because you think your god told you to do so.

What if the child had starved to death and the parents explained that they just sat idly by and prayed that god would feed the child, yet made no effort to feed the child themselves? The parents would be responsible for the death of the child. What about the parents who left the baby in the carseat to starve to death? Do you think that they should not be prosecuted if they simply claim that they believed that god was supposed to feed and change the baby?

They didn't stone her to death or starve her to death. They aren't claming that they believed God would feed and change their child. They knew she was sick and the chose to heal her with prayer.

Stoning or starving a child is abusive. Praying for a child is not. They are within their treats to pray for their child's healing without seeking medical help. We are not legally obligated to treat oursleves or our families with Western medical care. And we never should be.

These parents are not responsible for their child's death - diabetes holds that honor.

 

[joe jones]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343148,00.html

family who chose to pray rather than get treatment for there child charged,

similar to this case, so hopefully these parents will be charged

they redacted the spiritual defence laws due to a child dying of treatable diabetes in the state, so are able to charge these parents who let there daughter die

 

[willow]

I don't know the answer to this, willow. Why would that information be important to you?

I'm sorry I didn't make myself more clear. I meant important to the outcome of this tragedy.

 

[kygal]

I don't know the answer to this, willow. Why would that information be important to you?

SCM, I think it could be important because diabetes has a genetic factor to it.

If say, one of her grandparents, aunts/uncles/cousins, or especially parents have it, then they should have been aware that this is a possibility and should have been watching for it as she was getting sicker. That's why doctors are always on the lookout on me since everyone on my dad's side and three on my mom's side have the disease.

 

[southcitymom]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343148,00.html

family who chose to pray rather than get treatment for there child charged,

similar to this case, so hopefully these parents will be charged

they redacted the spiritual defence laws due to a child dying of treatable diabetes in the state, so are able to charge these parents who let there daughter die

That case does seem to be on point. Maybe this thread will eventually get moved to Crimes in the News.

ETA: I do not agree with the Oregon decision and believe the followers of that church should be able to legally use prayer and anointing to cure illness.

 

[pedinurse]

We do not actually have any evidence that they were praying for the child to live.

They may well have been praying for the child to die if they were some kind of religious wackos who believed that the cause of the child's illness was some sort of punishment from a vindictive god.

They did not do anything to try and save the child. They did not call 911 or take any action to attempt to save her life until after the child was already dead. That's a bit too late. They denied this child a chance to live because of their extremist beliefs, when a simple medical diagnosis could have easily saved her life. They basically killed her by refusing to help her. Then they just sat there for weeks and watched her suffer and die. All the while ignoring her suffering. They should be prosecuted for murder.

I agree. I think they were trying to be an example for their church and sacrified their daughter in the process.

She would be alive if the parents had tried, even in the slightest, to keep her alive. There are no facts as to what they were praying for. But most extremist religious factions worship a god of vengance, not a god of love. Most rational people would assume that a parent would do anything and everything in their power to keep their child alive. These parents failed that test. They just sat there and watched her die. That is not normal human behaviour. Extremist religious attitudes have killed more life than anything else in history. Everyone has their own beliefs. No one is entitled to force their beliefs on another to the point of death. Especially a parent, who is supposed to protect the life of a child. These parents just sat there and watched their child die and did nothing. I am glad the aunt called police.

I agree as well. Children with diabetes when treated can life full and active lives.

They didn't stone her to death or starve her to death. They aren't claming that they believed God would feed and change their child. They knew she was sick and the chose to heal her with prayer.

Stoning or starving a child is abusive. Praying for a child is not. They are within their treats to pray for their child's healing without seeking medical help. We are not legally obligated to treat oursleves or our families with Western medical care. And we never should be.

These parents are not responsible for their child's death - diabetes holds that honor.

I think that what people are forgetting is that these people were constanting calling relatives and friends over the course of a MONTH and saying - she is getting worse, now she is in a COMA, please pray for her. A freakin coma. ANYONE with any reasoning takes this very seriously, even with their religious beliefs, and seeks medical treatment. THEN, when she passed away, they started CPR on her. So... it was ok when she was in a COMA, but not when she died? This is contradictory to me. These people make no sense.

We have families that religiously need to deny blood products, ect - if they need them, there are ways that we can "get" them for their children, even if we have to get a court order in very dire circumstances. Otherwise, we can use other things to try to get by. When we have had to proceed with blood, we sometimes have had to get a court order to save their lives.... and the parents are THANKFUL, not angry in my experience - it is relief for them. They want it taken out of their hands though because of their religious beliefs (in my experience)... or else they will suffer the consquences at their church.

In the end, I believe it is like if you saw someone get hit by a vehicle, SCM. Let's say that they aren't hurt badly enough to die right away... but they are badly injured. But over the course of a month, you take them home, you nurse them - and you rely mainly ON PRAYER. But you don't have the "stuff" you need to take care of them either... and let's say they get a secondary infection from their infection and need antibiotics, among other things - broken bones, ect. And they die a month later from an overwhelming infection. I feel like that is neglect and you just killed that person because you KNEW where to take them to get help and you didn't... and I am sure they suffered in that month as well.

 

[southcitymom]

I agree. I think they were trying to be an example for their church and sacrified their daughter in the process.



I agree as well. Children with diabetes when treated can life full and active lives.




I think that what people are forgetting is that these people were constanting calling relatives and friends over the course of a MONTH and saying - she is getting worse, now she is in a COMA, please pray for her. A freakin coma. ANYONE with any reasoning takes this very seriously, even with their religious beliefs, and seeks medical treatment. THEN, when she passed away, they started CPR on her. So... it was ok when she was in a COMA, but not when she died? This is contradictory to me. These people make no sense.

We have families that religiously need to deny blood products, ect - if they need them, there are ways that we can "get" them for their children, even if we have to get a court order in very dire circumstances. Otherwise, we can use other things to try to get by. When we have had to proceed with blood, we sometimes have had to get a court order to save their lives.... and the parents are THANKFUL, not angry in my experience - it is relief for them. They want it taken out of their hands though because of their religious beliefs (in my experience)... or else they will suffer the consquences at their church.

In the end, I believe it is like if you saw someone get hit by a vehicle, SCM. Let's say that they aren't hurt badly enough to die right away... but they are badly injured. But over the course of a month, you take them home, you nurse them - and you rely mainly ON PRAYER. But you don't have the "stuff" you need to take care of them either... and let's say they get a secondary infection from their infection and need antibiotics, among other things - broken bones, ect. And they die a month later from an overwhelming infection. I feel like that is neglect and you just killed that person because you KNEW where to take them to get help and you didn't... and I am sure they suffered in that month as well.

So you think prayer is not as powerful as western medicine - it's an okay thing to do in conjunction with "real" action, but it's not something we should rely on. I can respect that you feel this way, but it's not the way I feel.

I don't ever see myself thinking that relying on prayer to heal the sick is a second-hand option that a person could go to jail for choosing.

By the way - if I saw someone injured in the road, I would take them to the hospital and pray for them. For me, both actions would be equally as important and helpful.

But what if I only took them to the hospital and then chose not to pray for them? Would it be fair if the police charged me with negligence (and possible murder if the person died) if I only took this person to the hospital but then decided not to pray for them? No - of course it wouldn't. So why is it fair that I could be charged if I only prayed for them and didn't take them to the hospital? The only answer to that is this - the person who charges me feels like prayer for healing is not a valid helpful response to a medical emergency.

I understand others feel like prayer is "doing nothing." But I don't. I understand that others only have "real" faith in what can be accomplished down here in front of their eyes with man's hands. But that does not describe me.

 

[scarpetta]

SCM, do you feel that insulin is considered "western medicine"? Non-western medicine includes herbs, acupuncture, and natural stuff right? Since insulin is grown with bacteria I am wondering where you stand on that.