GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[Truly]

What if the child begged, "Please save my life. Don't let me die"? Do you think prayer would be enough? Would it be ok for the parents to put their beliefs above the child's wish to live?

I sure wouldn't make a child on the side of the road explain her religious practices before taking action to stop the bleeding. I would do all that I could to save the life of any living creature. I most certainly would not let my beliefs cause another person to die.

 

[GlitchWizard]

What if the child begged, "Please save my life. Don't let me die"? Do you think prayer would be enough? Would it be ok for the parents to put their beliefs above the child's wish to live?

I sure wouldn't make a child on the side of the road explain her religious practices before taking action to stop the bleeding. I would do all that I could to save the life of any living creature.

That's good. You're practicing your belief when you do that, and that is exactly what you should do. My choice is to take my child to a hospital, but many people DIE in hospitals from things that should NOT have killed them - so those people's families would tell you and I that we are horrific to take our child to such a death trap. They're not altogether wrong.

Medications harm the liver, prayer doesn't.
Surgical intervention involves risk of death. Prayer never killed anyone.

They have their beliefs, that's all I think the differences are. Both sides feel the other side is barbaric, at times.

I hope I make the right decisions.

 

[joe jones]

I guess your beliefs on what one should do for a child are different to mine, I think it should be illegal to not render aid and medical attention, no matter what the beliefs of the parents,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree,

 

[Vegas Bride]

I have been thinking a lot about this case. It's such a tragedy that an 11 year old girl died when it could have been so easily prevented.
1 thing I recall is the father saying he had friends who were Dr's. It would have been so easy for him to have reached out to any of them and describe what was happening with his daughter, I think they would have recognised the severity of her condition.
Another thing I think about is just what this little girl wanted. I think above all else this very sick girl wanted to please her parents and because of knowing their beliefs she would not ever say something like, "I'm terribly sick and I need to go to the hospital" She wanted to get better and because of her parents belief she probably thought God was not pleased with her or all the prayers would be answered.
If religion was not involved in this and parents did not take a sick child to the Dr and that child died, those parents would now be sitting in jail.

VB

 

[joe jones]

That's good. You're practicing your belief when you do that, and that is exactly what you should do. My choice is to take my child to a hospital, but many people DIE in hospitals from things that should NOT have killed them - so those people's families would tell you and I that we are horrific to take our child to such a death trap. They're not altogether wrong.

Medications harm the liver, prayer doesn't.
Surgical intervention involves risk of death. Prayer never killed anyone.

They have their beliefs, that's all I think the differences are. Both sides feel the other side is barbaric, at times.

I hope I make the right decisions.

prayer has killed, it killed this child, because her parents prayed and did not get medical attention for a treatable disease, without her parents belief in prayer she would be alive,

and that also goes for all the other cases linked, where children have died because prayer was chosen over intervention that would have saved them,

so in many cases the choice of prayer has killed

 

[concernedperson]

I have been thinking a lot about this case. It's such a tragedy that an 11 year old girl died when it could have been so easily prevented.
1 thing I recall is the father saying he had friends who were Dr's. It would have been so easy for him to have reached out to any of them and describe what was happening with his daughter, I think they would have recognised the severity of her condition.
Another thing I think about is just what this little girl wanted. I think above all else this very sick girl wanted to please her parents and because of knowing their beliefs she would not ever say something like, "I'm terribly sick and I need to go to the hospital" She wanted to get better and because of her parents belief she probably thought God was not pleased with her or all the prayers would be answered.
If religion was not involved in this and parents did not take a sick child to the Dr and that child died, those parents would now be sitting in jail.

VB

Such a preventable death by all accounts. I asked my daughter who was at death's door about this and she said "the doctors are the tools for God". Prayer helps those who need to help others as well as the patient.But, it is not relying on isolation it is relying on what God put on earth to help.

It is never fair to expect a child to manage to overcome a treatable illness when they don't have the knowledge or education to make the decision. I don't understand how the child could go into a coma and they not ask for EMS.

This is not about vaccines that are controversial in some quarters this is life or death with an emergency situation. Not a lingering disease where there is no hope or treatment left.

I pray that anyone who has a child facing a complication that they get help for the complication and not let ignorance be the guide.

 

[LinasK]

Such a preventable death by all accounts. I asked my daughter who was at death's door about this and she said "the doctors are the tools for God". Prayer helps those who need to help others as well as the patient.But, it is not relying on isolation it is relying on what God put on earth to help.

It is never fair to expect a child to manage to overcome a treatable illness when they don't have the knowledge or education to make the decision. I don't understand how the child could go into a coma and they not ask for EMS.

This is not about vaccines that are controversial in some quarters this is life or death with an emergency situation. Not a lingering disease where there is no hope or treatment left.

I pray that anyone who has a child facing a complication that they get help for the complication and not let ignorance be the guide.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: Well-stated!

 

[scarpetta]

"Detectives said that, before the new laws, “Followers of Christ” members who got into traffic accidents would take injured children home rather than to the hospital.

However, they also said most church members changed those practices the day the law changed 9 years ago."
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_033008_news_faith_healing.1742971c.html



Lawsuits, jail time, and a lot of bad publicity.
That makes "God" change his mind each and every time.

 

[southcitymom]

That's good. You're practicing your belief when you do that, and that is exactly what you should do. My choice is to take my child to a hospital, but many people DIE in hospitals from things that should NOT have killed them - so those people's families would tell you and I that we are horrific to take our child to such a death trap. They're not altogether wrong.

Medications harm the liver, prayer doesn't.
Surgical intervention involves risk of death. Prayer never killed anyone.

They have their beliefs, that's all I think the differences are. Both sides feel the other side is barbaric, at times.

I hope I make the right decisions.

Great post, Glitch.

 

[southcitymom]

prayer has killed, it killed this child, because her parents prayed and did not get medical attention for a treatable disease, without her parents belief in prayer she would be alive,

and that also goes for all the other cases linked, where children have died because prayer was chosen over intervention that would have saved them,

so in many cases the choice of prayer has killed

Prayer didn't kill this young girl. Diabetes did.

 

[southcitymom]

What if the child begged, "Please save my life. Don't let me die"? Do you think prayer would be enough? Would it be ok for the parents to put their beliefs above the child's wish to live?

I sure wouldn't make a child on the side of the road explain her religious practices before taking action to stop the bleeding. I would do all that I could to save the life of any living creature. I most certainly would not let my beliefs cause another person to die.

Joe Jones was asking what would I think if a mom did this with her own child - not what I would do. I would take a bleeding child to the hospital.

The "save my life, don't let me die" question - you might think I'm being difficult, but again we do have to consider the family's spirituality at this point. My kids have been raised to believe they are eternal and cannot die - though their bodies probably will eventually.

But say a kid was screaming to their parents, "Please don't let me die, please save my life" and the parents responded by praying. Why do you say the parents are putting their beliefs above the child's wish to live? - the parents are ernestly praying so that their child will live!! The child wants to live, the parents want they child to live - they use what they feel to be the very best tool to reach that end.

I can follow the logic that you don't think the tool (prayer) that parents used is effective. I cannot follow the logic that the tool (prayer) that the parents chose is in direction contradiction to the child's wishes.

 

[southcitymom]

"Detectives said that, before the new laws, “Followers of Christ” members who got into traffic accidents would take injured children home rather than to the hospital.

However, they also said most church members changed those practices the day the law changed 9 years ago."
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_033008_news_faith_healing.1742971c.html



Lawsuits, jail time, and a lot of bad publicity.
That makes "God" change his mind each and every time.

LOL! You are absolutely right that public opinion can sway folks from their most ardent beliefs!

 

[southcitymom]

I guess your beliefs on what one should do for a child are different to mine, I think it should be illegal to not render aid and medical attention, no matter what the beliefs of the parents,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree,

I agree that a lot of people only have faith in prayers for healing when they are combined with western medical care. I can surely respect that; I just don't agree with it.

 

[southcitymom]

I have been thinking a lot about this case. It's such a tragedy that an 11 year old girl died when it could have been so easily prevented.
1 thing I recall is the father saying he had friends who were Dr's. It would have been so easy for him to have reached out to any of them and describe what was happening with his daughter, I think they would have recognised the severity of her condition.
Another thing I think about is just what this little girl wanted. I think above all else this very sick girl wanted to please her parents and because of knowing their beliefs she would not ever say something like, "I'm terribly sick and I need to go to the hospital" She wanted to get better and because of her parents belief she probably thought God was not pleased with her or all the prayers would be answered.
If religion was not involved in this and parents did not take a sick child to the Dr and that child died, those parents would now be sitting in jail.

VB

You make some excellent points. Religious extremism can be as toxic to a family as drug addiction or mental illness. I do not know enough about this family to say I feel like they crossed the line from religious practice that seems extreme to me to religious practice that is criminal.

 

[LinasK]

You make some excellent points. Religious extremism can be as toxic to a family as drug addiction or mental illness. I do not know enough about this family to say I feel like they crossed the line from religious practice that seems extreme to me to religious practice that is criminal.

Okay SouthCity, I think it was extreme not to pursue medical treatment as well as prayer because Diabetes is totally treatable and this girl didn't have to die, it wasn't diabetes that killed her, it was lack of medical treatment. It wasn't like she had incurable Cancer, and prayer was the only avenue left to them. Therefore, I believe the parents are guilty of negligence.

 

[southcitymom]

Such a preventable death by all accounts. I asked my daughter who was at death's door about this and she said "the doctors are the tools for God". Prayer helps those who need to help others as well as the patient.But, it is not relying on isolation it is relying on what God put on earth to help.

It is never fair to expect a child to manage to overcome a treatable illness when they don't have the knowledge or education to make the decision. I don't understand how the child could go into a coma and they not ask for EMS.

This is not about vaccines that are controversial in some quarters this is life or death with an emergency situation. Not a lingering disease where there is no hope or treatment left.

I pray that anyone who has a child facing a complication that they get help for the complication and not let ignorance be the guide.

Was the doctor who just got sent to jail for raping all those women he was supposed to be helping a "tool of God?" I think he was just a tool!

I agree with you that many doctors - heck, many people - are tools of God. I'll bet this girl's parents felt like they were tools of God.

Concerned, do you believe God can ever heal someone directly through prayer without the help of western medical doctors?

 

[southcitymom]

Okay SouthCity, I think it was extreme not to pursue medical treatment as well as prayer because Diabetes is totally treatable and this girl didn't have to die, it wasn't diabetes that killed her, it was lack of medical treatment. It wasn't like she had incurable Cancer, and prayer was the only avenue left to them. Therefore, I believe the parents are guilty of negligence.

Cancer! ("Well, we can't fix this so we'll leave it to God!" Gosh - somehow that prayer just doesn't fill me with hope!) Am I the only person here who thinks God can heal diabetes?

Here's the deal, LinasK. I am not as faithful as Abraham and I doubt I ever will be in this lifetime. If God told me to kill my son, I'd tell God: NO! And I know this about myself - which is why I would not attempt to be the tool to heal my sick child through prayer.

But I believe God can heal directly through prayer, and I believe this family believed that and practiced that. I'm heartbroken that this girl died, but I believe in their choice of prayer.

We should just go ahead and outlaw spiritual healing attempts if we feel such attempts are bogus. It seems false to only charge people when these attempts fail.

 

[concernedperson]

Was the doctor who just got sent to jail for raping all those women he was supposed to be helping a "tool of God?" I think he was just a tool!

I agree with you that many doctors - heck, many people - are tools of God. I'll bet this girl's parents felt like they were tools of God.

Concerned, do you believe God can ever heal someone directly through prayer without the help of western medical doctors?

I don't know what doctor you are speaking about. I personally have met no doctors that are in that category.I think you are taking my statement to make it in to something else. When I say tools I mean that they are given gifts that can help. There are sometimes the gifts aren't enough.

You are over the line as far as making a point. You have no idea the heartbreak over a real situation. You are juxtaposing what you think and I don't think you are based in real life situations. You are using hyperbole and it isn't funny or enlightening to those who have to really experience it.

I really don't have anything to say to you anymore.

 

[sherri79]

Cancer! ("Well, we can't fix this so we'll leave it to God!" Gosh - somehow that prayer just doesn't fill me with hope!) Am I the only person here who thinks God can heal diabetes?

Here's the deal, LinasK. I am not as faithful as Abraham and I doubt I ever will be in this lifetime. If God told me to kill my son, I'd tell God: NO! And I know this about myself - which is why I would not attempt to be the tool to heal my sick child through prayer.

But I believe God can heal directly through prayer, and I believe this family believed that and practiced that. I'm heartbroken that this girl died, but I believe in their choice of prayer.

We should just go ahead and outlaw spiritual healing attempts if we feel such attempts are bogus. It seems false to only charge people when these attempts fail.

i think he can do anything. i also think he gave us a brain for reason other than to keep our heads from floating away. my grandmother prays for everything. before she crosses a road a little "lord help me to find a opening if it is your will". she also looks both ways. god answers prayers. sometimes it is yes, sometimes no, and sometimes the answer is take care of this yourself. maybe he answered these parents prayer with the 3rd option and they just did not listen.

 

[LinasK]

Cancer! ("Well, we can't fix this so we'll leave it to God!" Gosh - somehow that prayer just doesn't fill me with hope!) Am I the only person here who thinks God can heal diabetes?

Here's the deal, LinasK. I am not as faithful as Abraham and I doubt I ever will be in this lifetime. If God told me to kill my son, I'd tell God: NO! And I know this about myself - which is why I would not attempt to be the tool to heal my sick child through prayer.

But I believe God can heal directly through prayer, and I believe this family believed that and practiced that. I'm heartbroken that this girl died, but I believe in their choice of prayer.

We should just go ahead and outlaw spiritual healing attempts if we feel such attempts are bogus. It seems false to only charge people when these attempts fail.

Okay did you miss the words "as well" in my post? I never said don't pray, just don't rely on prayer alone. Just like somebody pointed out the car accident scenario. Are you going to let someone bleed to death in front of you, obviously suffering while waiting for God to heal them? This girl reportedly from people who have diabetes know, suffered tremendously and needlessly. These parents are stupid at best in my opinion, if not negligent.