GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[KOOL LOOK]

I can see your view, though I disagree. It's not the prayer that kills, it's the disease or injury. Who's to say that she wouldn't have sufferred an allergic reaction to treatment, a staph infection from the hospital or a nurse's accidental injection of a wrong medication at the hospital? These things happen everyday and people die. Treatment isn't always sucessful. Sometimes it is. Sometimes prayer is (or appears to be.) Sometimes it's just luck, time, etc.

My grandmother was never sick a day in her life. She never went to a doctor. When she got old, my father took her to a doctor and he put her on medications. Within 6 months she was dead. Was it the medical intervention? I don't know. But maybe it would have been best just to pray.

My brother I spoke about earlier in the thread who died from juvenile brittle diabetes, this is what happened to him. Once they got the lugns functioning and diabete blood sugar level to normal, he then developed a staph infection, it was touch and go for two weeks, was a horrible experience.

I did want to add, not all deaths and illnesses from diabetes are visable, you can't always tell how sick a diabetic comatose person is. You just can't tell and anyone that has dealt with this type of illness knows that you don't really know.

This is a witch hunt, and it sounds as if the aunt relative got the ball rolling on the religious aspect as she constantly in the links and interviews kept shoving this around till it took life and flew. Shame on her.

This girl very well could have not looked or acted sick enough for medical treatment. It took an autopsy to tell. Even if the parents had taken her to the doctor, we don't know if he wouldn't have treated her for the flu instead of doing a blood glucose tolerance test. Especially at her age.

It sure is easy to say what somebody should have done after the so called facts are now out and discovered. All I've discovered concerning this is an aunt that needs her behind spanked.

 

[scarpetta]

This girl very well could have not looked or acted sick enough for medical treatment.

Then what was all the praying about?

 

[GlitchWizard]

It is not a rare occurrence for parents to turn away from their children at the moment when their children need them most if their "faith" is in a religious leader or religious group, and one that has told them that if they put their child above what they have decreed is proper "obedience" to God, they themselves will be lacking in faith or disobedient to God.

God takes a backseat to my child. I may burn in hell for it, but it's the truth. Any God worth his salt would understand.

 

[scarpetta]

God takes a backseat to my child. I may burn in hell for it, but it's the truth. Any God worth his salt would understand.

I understand, but I wasn't speaking of God, but instead those who claim to be His representatives. They are the one's who don't bat an eye when telling a parent that even when their child is struggling massively, still the most important thing to do is to adhere to the commands they have set in place. When it is all about power, conscience and compassion go right out the window. We can all sit here on this thread and type about the validity of faith in God until callouses begin to form on the tips of our fingers. But that is not what happened in this scenario. It was not faith in God. It was faith in a concept. It was faith in a leaders ideas. It was faith in someone else's version of faith. Their brand of faith looks like swiss cheese from being so riddled with contradictions. This brand of faith is a cheap knock-off version of faith, a third party faith and a second hand conviction.
Out of one side of their mouths they expound on how much God has loved them throughout their lives, and out of the other side they whisper ethereal doctrines that somehow always wind up destroying the most vulnerable among those caught up in the confusing sand storm of their latest religious frenzy.

 

[Truly]

This is a witch hunt, and it sounds as if the aunt relative got the ball rolling on the religious aspect as she constantly in the links and interviews kept shoving this around till it took life and flew. Shame on her.

All I've discovered concerning this is an aunt that needs her behind spanked.

So, you blame the aunt? The person who tried to get medical help for her niece? Wow.

BTW, witchhunts were carried out by extremist religious groups against people who questioned and rejected the notion that they were required to adhere to the insane dogma of the cult. Mr. Eell's attack on doctors and pharmacists is closer to a witchhunt, imo.

 

[Truly]

I understand, but I wasn't speaking of God, but instead those who claim to be His representatives. They are the one's who don't bat an eye when telling a parent that even when their child is struggling massively, still the most important thing to do is to adhere to the commands they have set in place. When it is all about power, conscience and compassion go right out the window. We can all sit here on this thread and type about the validity of faith in God until callouses begin to form on the tips of our fingers. But that is not what happened in this scenario. It was not faith in God. It was faith in a concept. It was faith in a leaders ideas. It was faith in someone else's version of faith. Their brand of faith looks like swiss cheese from being so riddled with contradictions. This brand of faith is a cheap knock-off version of faith, a third party faith and a second hand conviction.
Out of one side of their mouths they expound on how much God has loved them throughout their lives, and out of the other side they whisper ethereal doctrines that somehow always wind up destroying the most vulnerable among those caught up in the confusing sand storm of their latest religious frenzy.

:clap: :clap: Excellent post, scarpetta.

 

[sherri79]

Are you SERIOUS? If it was included in his job, I can see it, but to have good medical insurance with no intent on using it is just tossing money away... and people don't often do that, do they? I'd like the answer to your question as well. Interesting.

he was self employed. the parents owned a coffee shop.

 

[GlitchWizard]

he was self employed. the parents owned a coffee shop.

I think we can safely rule out religous reasons, then. I have no idea what other reasons they'd have, though.

 

[GonzoReiter]

The completely illogical belief matrix that allows God to create the entire universe, allows God to create a system of laws that govern that universe (i.e., science), allows God to create a creature with the capacity of understanding/manipulating many of the laws of that universe (i.e., humans), yet does not allow man to use that knowledge.

And what is up with their complex about health? They don't pray that God bring them food to eat, they go to the store or grow it. They don't pray that God bring them water to drink, they go get it themselves out of the tap or from the well. They don't pray that God give them shelter, they either buy or build their home.

But one of their kids get sick they sit on their butt and expect God to do all the work. They use electricity, gas-powered engines, they've probably flown somewhere before, they probably have a computer, but Oh God No! we can't have our child taking medicine.

Cases like this should be against the law. That "prayer exemption" is complete and utter bullcarp. A child is incapable of making their own health decisions, ergo a parent neglecting necessary health care is tantamount to the worst sort of child abuse. If their actions result in the child's death, it's tantamount to murder or at least manslaughter.

They should stick them in a jail cell and give them no food or water. They can then pray to Baby Jesus for manna from heaven and He keeps the skinhead in the next cell from having unnatural urges toward their person.

 

[concernedperson]

The completely illogical belief matrix that allows God to create the entire universe, allows God to create a system of laws that govern that universe (i.e., science), allows God to create a creature with the capacity of understanding/manipulating many of the laws of that universe (i.e., humans), yet does not allow man to use that knowledge.

And what is up with their complex about health? They don't pray that God bring them food to eat, they go to the store or grow it. They don't pray that God bring them water to drink, they go get it themselves out of the tap or from the well. They don't pray that God give them shelter, they either buy or build their home.

But one of their kids get sick they sit on their butt and expect God to do all the work. They use electricity, gas-powered engines, they've probably flown somewhere before, they probably have a computer, but Oh God No! we can't have our child taking medicine.

Cases like this should be against the law. That "prayer exemption" is complete and utter bullcarp. A child is incapable of making their own health decisions, ergo a parent neglecting necessary health care is tantamount to the worst sort of child abuse. If their actions result in the child's death, it's tantamount to murder or at least manslaughter.

They should stick them in a jail cell and give them no food or water. They can then pray to Baby Jesus for manna from heaven and He keeps the skinhead in the next cell from having unnatural urges toward their person.

Well, there you go a reasonable post about an unreasonable situation. Thanks for you input.

 

[philamena]

It is not a rare occurrence for parents to turn away from their children at the moment when their children need them most if their "faith" is in a religious leader or religious group, and one that has told them that if they put their child above what they have decreed is proper "obedience" to God, they themselves will be lacking in faith or disobedient to God.

Nope, I disagree.
Parenting skills shouldn't be placed below religious beliefs. MOST parents have enough common sense to take their sick child to the doctor. I don't 'get' why this topic is so full of debate. Especially when it's obvious most WS posters agree with using common sense.

 

[scarpetta]

Nope, I disagree.
Parenting skills shouldn't be placed below religious beliefs. MOST parents have enough common sense to take their sick child to the doctor. I don't 'get' why this topic is so full of debate. Especially when it's obvious most WS posters agree with using common sense.

I said that it is not rare for parents to turn away from their children and instead listen to a religious leader or leaders.

You are saying that it is actually rare for that to happen.

There are hundreds of religions in this world. There are quite a few that have been identified as extreme religions, and still they qualify as matching the definition of a religion.

There are also quite a few religions that have all the earmarks and characteristics of a cult, and they also still qualify as matching the definition of a religion.

All religions have leaders. One of the characteristics of a cult or an extreme religion is that the followers are expected to maintain an unquestioning acceptance of all of the beliefs and practices of that religion.

They are expected to do that without question even when it creates a situation where they have to choose between the wellbeing of their child and the expectations of their religious leaders. The child's well being can include anything physical, mental, or emotional. It is more often than not that members of cults and extreme religions do not place the mental and emotional wellbeing of their children above the beliefs and practices of their religion. Hundreds of examples can be cited to back up this claim.

The practices and expectations of these extreme religions have been widely documented. Both the direct as well as the residual effects that they have had on children have been widely publicized as well.

In almost all of these cases it was the parents themselves who gave authorization. Even when it fell severely short of the best interest of their child. In these cases, they turned away from the well being of their child in order to move in the direction of what was considered spiritual obedience.

Given how many of these groups and organizations exist, you are saying that it is rare for parents to turn away from their children in favor of obedience to their religious leadership.

I agree with you in that MOST parents would not do that. It is also true that most parents are not members of an extreme religion. But is it RARE for parents to do that? I think that you and I are not agreeing on the word "rare." But we are agreeing on the fact that religion should be placed below the needs to your children.

 

[philamena]

But we are agreeing on the fact that religion should be placed below the needs to your children.

That is correctamundo sista.

 

[scarpetta]

I don't 'get' why this topic is so full of debate. Especially when it's obvious most WS posters agree with using common sense.

Philamena, I think there is so much debate about this topic because it is a crime. And like in so many of the other thousands of threads here on WS, a child died in the commission of that crime.

The cycle that usually takes place here is this....

We read about it in the news.

We are outraged.

We want to know how it happened.

We want to know the identity of the person responsible.

We want to know why it happened.

We talk about what the consequences should be.

We follow it until we discover what the consequences actually were.

We talk about possible solutions for preventing it from ever happening again.

It seems right now with this particular crime we are at the "why it happened" stage.

 

[philamena]

Scarpetta,
You of course are right. I was a bit fast in posting earlier tonight. I should have read this thread again before posting while American Idol was on.

I have to admit I'm incensed that a beautiful young child was allowed to suffer and die a possibly painful and needless death. Her parents trusted her care to God without medical treatment. God gave people brains so they could become doctors if they wanted to pursue that profession.
I have 2 grown children. When each was little and when each one got sick, I prayed that they'd be OK UNTIL I got them to the doctor. I took my first child whenever she ran a fever or looked sick. I'm sure I was overly worried but I damn sure never took the chance of my child dying while denying her medical treatment.

Yes, my heart is broken because this little girl died.

 

[sherri79]

i try to ignore the people that can not see the difference between someone that believes and fanatics. this thread has not upset me anywhere near as much as most the treads on similar on topics. most of us over all have tried to show respect to people who did not agree with us. most have spoken honestly about how they feel without the need for rhetoric like "magical thinking" to refer to all that believe in god. since the guilty party in this thread is a believer it would be a chance for many to attack all that believe. for the most part that has been avoided in this thread. i want to thank those that allowed me to participate in a debate on such a sensitive topic without feeling attacked. i just wish the debate had been in theory only.

 

[scarpetta]

Scarpetta,
You of course are right. I was a bit fast in posting earlier tonight. I should have read this thread again before posting while American Idol was on.

I have to admit I'm incensed that a beautiful young child was allowed to suffer and die a possibly painful and needless death. Her parents trusted her care to God without medical treatment. God gave people brains so they could become doctors if they wanted to pursue that profession.
I have 2 grown children. When each was little and when each one got sick, I prayed that they'd be OK UNTIL I got them to the doctor. I took my first child whenever she ran a fever or looked sick. I'm sure I was overly worried but I damn sure never took the chance of my child dying while denying her medical treatment.

Yes, my heart is broken because this little girl died.

I agree Philamena, this is a heartbreaking topic. I also agree with Sherri in that everyone has really shown a lot of respect for one another. SCM was definitely in the minority as well as a couple of others and we all went back and forth, and without the sniping or hitting below the belt.
Usually a subject that needs to be aired is always a difficult one and has the potential to get heated.
A big thank you from me too to all of you who participated.
I look forward to finding out more about this story and all the things that we can possibly dissect and learn from.

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080401/WDH0101/804010627/1981
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]April 1, 2008
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Shop reopens after girl's death[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]WESTON -- The owner of Monkey Mo Coffee To Go reopened the shop Monday, eight days after her 11-year-old daughter died from an untreated complication of diabetes. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The store is co-owned by Leilani Neumann, the mother of Madeline Kara Neumann, who died after her parents prayed for healing instead of taking her to a doctor. The store had been closed since Kara's death. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Neumann family has hung a memorial with dozens of photos of Kara on a wall. Several plants with cards of encouragement are in the corner by the front door. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Customers returned to the business Monday for a cup of coffee despite rainy and snowy roads.

Leilani Neumann clarified Tuesday that the ownership of the store will be transferred to Carolyn Wyatt, who was at the store Monday for training with her two daughters, Rachel, 20, and Natalie, 18.

Neumann told the newspaper the ownership change and training new workers will give the family "time to heal." [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Neumann declined to answer questions about Kara's death. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The store opened in early 2007 at 3910 Schofield Ave. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Carolyn Wyatt said her family is moving to the Wausau area from California. She said she has known the Neumanns for more than 20 years and had planned to move to Wisconsin to work with the Neumann family. Kara's death sped up those plans, she said. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The store will be open 5:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Monday through Friday, 7 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Saturday and 8 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Sunday. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[scarpetta]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com...?AID=/20080331/GPG0101/803310535/1207/GPGnews

March 31, 2008

Wausau girl's death brings forward issues of religious freedom, public safety
By Robert Mentzer
Gannett Wisconsin Media


WAUSAU — Wisconsin's Constitution, adopted 160 years ago, declares that "The right of every person to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of conscience shall never be infringed."


Wisconsin law specifically exempts from punishment parents who treat their children "through prayer alone in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."
But Shawn Peters, a University of Wisconsin-Madison scholar who wrote "When Prayer Fails," a book about faith healing and the law, said "It's more of a complex issue than it might appear on first glance. It's a really thorny public policy issue."


Those thorns have never been sharper than they are now in Marathon County, where District Attorney Jill Falstad must balance religious freedom and public safety as she decides if criminal charges are appropriate in the case of Madeline Neumann.
Madeline, 11, died March 23 after her parents, Leilani and Dale Neumann, opted to pray for her recovery from a diabetic reaction rather than seek medical help.


To some, Falstad's course seems clear, but Peters said her decisions aren't so easy.
For example, for Christian Scientists, whose "entire religion is predicated on refusing treatment of modern, secular medicine," eliminating that legal exemption amounts to outlawing their religion, Peters said. In most states, exemptions like Wisconsin's were adopted in the early 1900s as a result of pressure from Christian Science groups.
But the law is only one complicating factor in cases like Madeline's.


"The prosecutions are very unsatisfactory all the way around," Peters said. "The parents feel they're being persecuted, and the prosecutors feel ambivalent about dragging grieving parents into a trial in front of a jury."
— Robert Mentzer writes for the Wausau Daily Herald.

 

[southcitymom]

i try to ignore the people that can not see the difference between someone that believes and fanatics. this thread has not upset me anywhere near as much as most the treads on similar on topics. most of us over all have tried to show respect to people who did not agree with us. most have spoken honestly about how they feel without the need for rhetoric like "magical thinking" to refer to all that believe in god. since the guilty party in this thread is a believer it would be a chance for many to attack all that believe. for the most part that has been avoided in this thread. i want to thank those that allowed me to participate in a debate on such a sensitive topic without feeling attacked. i just wish the debate had been in theory only.

I agree, sherri, with you and scarpetta that this has been a fascinating thread about a complicated subject. I have learned a lot about many things - including our collective faith (or lack thereof) in prayer and also the limits we put on this faith. I too wish our debate had been completely theoretical.

One interesting post by pedinurse talked about how certain people's religion do not allow blood transplants and how the medical staff would go to bat to get a patient a blood transplant - and, in the end, the family was very glad that someone was able to sidestep their belief system. The family wanted medical help for their loved one, but did not want to be shunned by their church community. That also goes back to touch on the Religious Leader opinion that scarpetta posted about.

Now the parents in this case were not involved in a formal church, I don't think. I know there was a group of likeminded people who studied the Bible together. So I do not think anyone "told" the parents formally - nope, no medical treatment allowed.

For now, I am interested in learning more about their belief structure and how that structure may have helped lead to this young girl's death. I am still unclear (coma notwithstanding, because I can comprehemd that certain people of faith may see a coma as an altered state brought about by God to heal) whether or not and when the parents knew how critical their child's condition was.

Also - why did they have medical insurance and what role did medicine play in their life? Just in general, I want to know where they drew those lines in the sand prior to this event.

I stopped posting on this thread because a post I made upset a WSer that I like and care for and I had to apologize - that always tells me its time for a little cooling off period.

But, I can't stay away!