GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[southcitymom]

......."The right of every person to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of conscience shall never be infringed." .....

Good find. I'd love to read this book. It is a thorny public policy issue - just not black and white on any level. That's why this thread has been so long!

 

[jubie]

The parents feel persecuted? The prosecutors feel ambivalent? How about Kara? Where is her voice in all of this? She will never have the opportunity to grow up and make the choice of life or death for religion for herself.

I think if these parents that opt for prayer over medicine are so sure that they're child will get well they shouldn't have a problem with the law applying to them.




J.

 

[Truly]

I stopped post on this thread because a post I made upset a WSer that I like and care for and I had to apologize - that always tells me its time for a little cooling off period.

Way to shift the blame onto the person you hurt and make yourself out to be the injured party. Care to try this again?

You did not take responsibility for how your behavior had hurt her, nor did you apologize for it. You told her you were sorry for her feelings.

Classic.

 

[scarpetta]

So it only took 8 days to come to the conclusion that prayer alone would not bring about their healing.

It is now a business transaction that can speed up that process.

 

[scarpetta]

That is one big block of swiss cheese.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

Way to shift the blame onto the person you hurt and make yourself out to be the injured party. Care to try this again?

You did not take responsibility for how your behavior had hurt her, nor did you apologize for it. You told her you were sorry for her feelings.

Classic.

Foolishness. scm thanks for explaining, though you weren't obligated and I hope you and the other poster have worked things out and all is well. If I offended anyone, I ask for forgiveness too.

 

[southcitymom]

Way to shift the blame onto the person you hurt and make yourself out to be the injured party. Care to try this again?

You did not take responsibility for how your behavior had hurt her, nor did you apologize for it. You told her you were sorry for her feelings.

Classic.

I apologized to her directly in post 305 on this thread. I am sorry that I had hurt concerned's feelings, which is why I apologized.

 

[southcitymom]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That is one big block of swiss cheese.

 

[Paladin]

I don't think these parents need to be charged with anything. Their decision led them to their ultimate punishment.

 

[scarpetta]

If I offended anyone, I ask for forgiveness too.

Me too!

 

[southcitymom]

I don't think these parents need to be charged with anything. Their decision led them to their ultimate punishment.

Absolutely, Paladin. Though some excellent points have been made regarding charging them to send a strong message to others. Scarpetta posted a link about a church that changed it's policies about faith vs. medical healing because members kept getting charged.

 

[scarpetta]

I don't think these parents need to be charged with anything. Their decision led them to their ultimate punishment.

They let her linger for days suffering. Instead of medical attention they got on the phone with their leader David Eells, and he prayed with them and apparently did not advise them to seek medical help. They chose his advice. She slipped into a coma finally and they called relatives and let them know she had, and STILL they are not the one's who called 911.

Do you mean that you believe in hell and that they are headed there, and so who cares if they are free to do this again in the meantime?

Or do you mean that their punishment is the amount that they now feel bad about for the deliberate decisions they made while they never reached for the phone and watched her die instead? I don't think you mean this second option because their version of feeling bad about something and your version of feeling bad about something is likely 2 very different versions.

 

[Truly]

Absolutely, Paladin. Though some excellent points have been made regarding charging them to send a strong message to others. Scarpetta posted a link about a church that changed it's policies about faith vs. medical healing because members kept getting charged.

Actually, the laws were changed in response to so many children dying because the 'church' was teaching parents to refuse medical treatment for their kids. This is not some hypothetical where the kids go skipping off to play. These kids are dead. The decision these parents made led to their daughter's ultimate punishment. They still need to face their own.

 

[southcitymom]

They let her linger for days suffering. Instead of medical attention they got on the phone with their leader David Eells, and he prayed with them and apparently did not advise them to seek medical help. They chose his advice. She slipped into a coma finally and they called relatives and let them know she had, and STILL they are not the one's who called 911.

Do you mean that you believe in hell and that they are headed there, and so who cares if they are free to do this again in the meantime?

Or do you mean that their punishment is the amount that they now feel bad about for the deliberate decisions they made while they never reached for the phone and watched her die instead? I don't think you mean this second option because their version of feeling bad about something and your version of feeling bad about something is likely 2 very different versions.

I can't speak for Paladin, but I agreed with him because I don't think these parents wanted their daughter to die. A child dying is one of the worst things a parent can endure and they will endure this forever. Going to jail or being put on probation or whatever will happen if they get charged pales in comparison to that cold hard reality.

They made an unorthodox choice to help her and it didn't work and many feel like they were negligent and are culpable. That's all for the courts to handle, I guess. But there's nothing that leads me to believe they wanted the result they got and that's what I think is so punishing.

Do you know if their other children are still out of the house? This must be so brutal on them.

 

[scarpetta]

I can't speak for Paladin, but I agreed with him because I don't think these parents wanted their daughter to die.

SCM, the issue is not did they want their child to die....

The issue is did they want other things more than they wanted her to live.

 

[scarpetta]

A child dying is one of the worst things a parent can endure and they will endure this forever. Going to jail or being put on probation or whatever will happen if they get charged pales in comparison to that cold hard reality.

For all of those parents that you are speaking for who consider it one of the worst things that they could ever endure......even the threat of "that cold hard reality" causes a feeling of panic and terror that makes it impossible for them to not run screaming for help.

"Cold hard reality" is not how these parents interpreted their daughter slipping into a coma. As a matter of fact, I suspect that their reality has had very little to do with actual reality at all.

 

[southcitymom]

SCM, the issue is not did they want their child to die....

The issue is did they want other things more than they wanted her to live.

Well, for me, in terms of them already being punished for life, that is at least one of the issues. It wouldn't be punishment if they had wanted the outcome they got.

That's what I was trying to say - though perhaps not clearly!

 

[scarpetta]

Well, for me, in terms of them already being punished for life, that is at least one of the issues. It wouldn't be punishment if they had wanted the outcome they got.

That's what I was trying to say - though perhaps not clearly!

How are they already being punished for life? Are you saying that they now feel bad enough about it to cause them internal torment and grief over it for the rest of their lives?

Can you provide a link or evidence indicating that they have received a brand new normal functioning conscience that has the capacity to feel that way?

If you can't, then the only measuring stick we are left with to measure their remorse, is the one that they themselves used to measure the potential for loss to begin with.

I think it would boggle your imagination to know just how quickly appropriate remorse can morph into "It was just God's will" and render all parties involved instantly blameless and grief free.

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080326/WDH0101/803260644/1981

Posted March 26, 2008

Girl who died was student at Riverside
Wausau Daily Herald
An 11-year-old town of Weston girl who died Sunday had previously attended the D.C. Everest Area School District.
Madeline Neumann, known by her middle name, Kara, was enrolled in the fifth grade at Riverside Elementary School until December when her parents took her out of class, said Beth Schultz, secretary to the superintendent.
Riverside Elementary Principal Patty LesStrang did not have her records at home, but recalled that Kara had been a student at the school for the past few years.
"I feel just sick about the loss," LesStrang said. "She was a very sweet girl and I know she will be greatly missed by her friends and those who knew her."
Kara's parents, Dale and Leilani, had moved to the town of Weston from California in 2006. Dale Neumann has relatives in the area, and Leilani co-owns Monkey Mo Coffee to Go with business partner Lynn Wilde.
The entire Neumann family, including Kara and three older siblings, have worked at the coffee shop.
The answering machine at the family's home includes the greeting, "What you do for others, God will do for you." No one answered the phone Tuesday.

 

[scarpetta]

"The answering machine at the family's home includes the greeting, "What you do for others, God will do for you."

Well, then again, maybe they are afraid.