Found Deceased WI - Kathleen Ryan, adult, teacher, car found burned with body inside, St. Francis, 2 Feb 2019 #2

[Boston Corbett]

What, given this situation, is the most plausible: burning to death in a vehicle entirely accidentally, or suicide? Or is there a middle ground here - death by misadventure?

 

[evilwise]

"Death by misadventure" is really just a thing in the UK.

Manner of death - Wikipedia

 

[kay74]

Well this is shocking, but I don't believe it's suicide, mainly because she was in the "passenger" seat and the car was put in someone's driveway. IMO something happened in that mall parking lot. She looked vulnerable and someone took advantage of this. It had nothing to do with her problems.

 

[Boston Corbett]

Accident: her car somehow malfunctioned and she died as a result.
Suicide: she intentionally killed herself.
Misadventure: she stopped for reasons unknown and ignited herself accidentally.

 

[Boston Corbett]

"Death by misadventure" is really just a thing in the UK.

Manner of death - Wikipedia

It's a descriptive term elsewhere, a legal term in parts of the UK.

 

[evilwise]

Accident: her car somehow malfunctioned and she died as a result.
Suicide: she intentionally killed herself.
Misadventure: she stopped for reasons unknown and ignited herself accidentally.

You can use any terms you want, I suppose but when you literally use the word "accident" in your own definition of "misadventure" you can see how others might find it redundant.

In the UK it has a subtext of victim blaming i.e. "died as a result of knowingly dangerous activity" but it's a nebulous criteria. Either you intend to die or you don't.

That Wikipedia article I linked actually contains some references to claims and studies that suggest the standards used everywhere to classify and record causes of death are in need of serious revision and I have to agree. A particularly morbid sort of research scientist could probably make a name for themselves and contribute greatly to society.

 

[Boston Corbett]

You can use any terms you want, I suppose but when you literally use the word "accident" in your own definition of "misadventure" you can see how others might find it redundant.

In the UK it has a subtext of victim blaming i.e. "died as a result of knowingly dangerous activity" but it's a nebulous criteria. Either you intend to die or you don't.

That Wikipedia article I linked actually contains some references to claims and studies that suggest the standards used everywhere to classify and record causes of death are in need of serious revision and I have to agree. A particularly morbid sort of research scientist could probably make a name for themselves and contribute greatly to society.

To be more clear then:

Misadventure - perhaps she had become inebriated while driving and stopped and her cigarette ignited spilled alcohol on her person.

I do think she suicided, however.

 

[Kittybunny]

While looking for information about a different case on the Wisconsin Circuit Court Access website earlier today, Kathleen popped into my head. So I decided to do a search on her and came across some information that I had never seen before.

To make sure this was who I thought it was, I read her obituary again (it was). I also saw that she had moved to Milwaukee only in 2015 and lived in Minnesota previously, so I decided to do the same on the Minnesota Public Access website, and came across even more information.

I am not going to discuss in detail what I've found because to me, it is heartbreaking and so tragic. And, clearly, Kathleen was much, much more than that. I am only mentioning it because it has really given me a new perspective on what might have happened to her.

Wisconsin Circuit Court Access: Wisconsin Circuit Court Access

Kathleen Ann Ryan obituary: View Kathleen Ryan's Obituary on fdlreporter.com and share memories

Minnesota Public Access: Minnesota Judicial Branch - AccessCaseRecords

Rest in peace. What an amazing, strong woman she was.

Thank you so much for not giving up on Kathleen's case and going above and beyond to help provide big clues as to what might have happened and why nothing was making sense - LE's statements and subsequent silence, why no updates, why no evidence of foul play, etc, and eventually why the silence and acceptance for family. It's very possible that they knew things all along that we didn't.

As a recovered alcoholic, all the pieces started to fall into place with the information you found, at least for me. Out of respect for her family I won't go into many speculative details because I really don't know if her record had anything to do with what happened, but I will just say that I personally had one really bad incident in which I had every intention of going to a family event but of course, had to stop at the liquor store because, well, because I needed it. I drank quite a bit in the parking lot and then kept drinking from the open bottle with me in the car, and (horribly ashamed and guilty about this) drove about 30 minutes before getting completely disoriented and ending up in the middle of nowhere, lost. I finally found a parking lot at an abandoned strip mall and pulled in there to sleep it off. Anything really could have happened to me, or worst I could have hurt someone else.

I was firmly in the foul play camp, but now, I think suicide is possible, but that it is highly probable that a combination of circumstances, coincidences and mishaps led to her tragic death. My heart aches for her no matter what happened; there but for the grace of God go I.

Prayers for her friends and families. I am not sure they will ever feel closure over this no matter what.

Edited to add: @Boston Corbett - I too would use the term "death by misadventure" to describe what might have happened to Kathleen, regardless of what the legal definition of it is. I also heard it used in the bizarre Elisa Lam case (woman drowned in water tanks atop hotel roof) and think it definitely could apply here.

 

[Boston Corbett]

Thank you so much for not giving up on Kathleen's case and going above and beyond to help provide big clues as to what might have happened and why nothing was making sense - LE's statements and subsequent silence, why no updates, why no evidence of foul play, etc, and eventually why the silence and acceptance for family. It's very possible that they knew things all along that we didn't.

As a recovered alcoholic, all the pieces started to fall into place with the information you found, at least for me. Out of respect for her family I won't go into many speculative details because I really don't know if her record had anything to do with what happened, but I will just say that I personally had one really bad incident in which I had every intention of going to a family event but of course, had to stop at the liquor store because, well, because I needed it. I drank quite a bit in the parking lot and then kept drinking from the open bottle with me in the car, and (horribly ashamed and guilty about this) drove about 30 minutes before getting completely disoriented and ending up in the middle of nowhere, lost. I finally found a parking lot at an abandoned strip mall and pulled in there to sleep it off. Anything really could have happened to me, or worst I could have hurt someone else.

I was firmly in the foul play camp, but now, I think suicide is possible, but that it is highly probable that a combination of circumstances, coincidences and mishaps led to her tragic death. My heart aches for her no matter what happened; there but for the grace of God go I.

Prayers for her friends and families. I am not sure they will ever feel closure over this no matter what.

Edited to add: @Boston Corbett - I too would use the term "death by misadventure" to describe what might have happened to Kathleen, regardless of what the legal definition of it is. I also heard it used in the bizarre Elisa Lam case (woman drowned in water tanks atop hotel roof) and think it definitely could apply here.

Excellent response. I agree with you about inmyhumbleopinion's work here too.

 

[inmyhumbleopinion]

Thank you so much for not giving up on Kathleen's case and going above and beyond to help provide big clues as to what might have happened and why nothing was making sense - LE's statements and subsequent silence, why no updates, why no evidence of foul play, etc, and eventually why the silence and acceptance for family. It's very possible that they knew things all along that we didn't.

As a recovered alcoholic, all the pieces started to fall into place with the information you found, at least for me. Out of respect for her family I won't go into many speculative details because I really don't know if her record had anything to do with what happened, but I will just say that I personally had one really bad incident in which I had every intention of going to a family event but of course, had to stop at the liquor store because, well, because I needed it. I drank quite a bit in the parking lot and then kept drinking from the open bottle with me in the car, and (horribly ashamed and guilty about this) drove about 30 minutes before getting completely disoriented and ending up in the middle of nowhere, lost. I finally found a parking lot at an abandoned strip mall and pulled in there to sleep it off. Anything really could have happened to me, or worst I could have hurt someone else.

I was firmly in the foul play camp, but now, I think suicide is possible, but that it is highly probable that a combination of circumstances, coincidences and mishaps led to her tragic death. My heart aches for her no matter what happened; there but for the grace of God go I.

Prayers for her friends and families. I am not sure they will ever feel closure over this no matter what.

Edited to add: @Boston Corbett - I too would use the term "death by misadventure" to describe what might have happened to Kathleen, regardless of what the legal definition of it is. I also heard it used in the bizarre Elisa Lam case (woman drowned in water tanks atop hotel roof) and think it definitely could apply here.

So glad that you are here with us. Thank you so much for sharing.

 

[LarkBunting]

Well, sheeit. This new information just took me from a strong belief her death was a homicide, to wondering very much if it wasn’t a case of “misadventure.”
Thank you very much to inmyhumbleopinion for finding the information.
So very sad. Whatever happened, her family loved her and misses her.

 

[kay74]

If it was a "misadventure", WHY would she be in the passenger seat?!

 

[PayrollNerd]

Thank you so much for not giving up on Kathleen's case and going above and beyond to help provide big clues as to what might have happened and why nothing was making sense - LE's statements and subsequent silence, why no updates, why no evidence of foul play, etc, and eventually why the silence and acceptance for family. It's very possible that they knew things all along that we didn't.

As a recovered alcoholic, all the pieces started to fall into place with the information you found, at least for me. Out of respect for her family I won't go into many speculative details because I really don't know if her record had anything to do with what happened, but I will just say that I personally had one really bad incident in which I had every intention of going to a family event but of course, had to stop at the liquor store because, well, because I needed it. I drank quite a bit in the parking lot and then kept drinking from the open bottle with me in the car, and (horribly ashamed and guilty about this) drove about 30 minutes before getting completely disoriented and ending up in the middle of nowhere, lost. I finally found a parking lot at an abandoned strip mall and pulled in there to sleep it off. Anything really could have happened to me, or worst I could have hurt someone else.

I was firmly in the foul play camp, but now, I think suicide is possible, but that it is highly probable that a combination of circumstances, coincidences and mishaps led to her tragic death. My heart aches for her no matter what happened; there but for the grace of God go I.

Prayers for her friends and families. I am not sure they will ever feel closure over this no matter what.

Edited to add: @Boston Corbett - I too would use the term "death by misadventure" to describe what might have happened to Kathleen, regardless of what the legal definition of it is. I also heard it used in the bizarre Elisa Lam case (woman drowned in water tanks atop hotel roof) and think it definitely could apply here.

Your response highlights your good character. Thank you for sharing and providing insight. I am glad you are here with us. Stay safe and well.

 

[Boston Corbett]

If it was a "misadventure", WHY would she be in the passenger seat?!

Because it perhaps afforded a more comfortable accomodation than drinking in the driver's seat, if she had stopped there for that reason.

 

[Via Marple]

Don't know if anyone has researched cars catching fire, but it could be another angle ...

2009 Pontiac G6 Fire Due To Power Steering Fluid Leak | CarComplaints.com



pontiac g6 Problems
(Find on page with 'fire', many instances)

Shamelessly quoting myself....
(Go to original post for cars catching fire examples)

Now that @inmyhumbleopinion has found a reason why she might have stopped there, the above theory might still be valid, as to how it happened.

I think it's time to let her RIP

 

[cluciano63]

A tragic accident sounds very likely with this new information...though I never felt foul play was likely. But I doubt if there can ever be a certainty, unless of course there was a note. Jmo

 

[inmyhumbleopinion]

I'm watching an episode of Dr G right now and totally made me think of Kathleen. This guy was intoxicated, turned on the AC in his car and decided he was too drunk to drive, so he left the car running, got into the passenger side to sleep it off and the car started on fire killing him. I know the incident with Kathleen happened in February, why would she have the AC on? Well, I get really bad hot flashes and anxiety and have to put the AC on in the car when I'm not feeling well. Not saying she was intoxicated but maybe something like this happened to her? Or maybe she just wasn't feeling good, pulled over the car with it and the heater running, passes out and the car started on fire? Could a heater start a fire? I've never thought that she committed suicide, all MOO.

I just watched the episode. I’m so glad you mentioned it on here.

For those who may be interested, here is a little more info.:
“Burning Questions”
Dr. G: Medical Examiner: Season 2, Episode 5
Air Date: September 16, 2005
“After a night of drinking, a 23-year-old man is found dead in a burning car in a parking garage. Since the man was not able to get out of the car, investigators hypothesize that he was dead or unconscious when the fire started. Dr. G and crime scene investigators work to find out how the man died and who or what started the fire.”

I was able to watch it for no additional charge with Amazon Prime (Season 2, but Episode 4 on there):
Amazon.com: Watch Dr. G: Medical Examiner | Prime Video

Some of the things I found interesting:
1. The attendant at the parking garage (this happened in downtown Orlando) had seen the man, appearing to be asleep in the passenger seat, just a half-hour before he heard a loud noise (it was the tires exploding, the investigators believe) and called 911; when the fire was extinguished, his remains were “charred beyond recognition.”

2. Investigators are confident the man was alive after the fire due to the soot found in his trachea and lungs;

3. COD: Respiratory system failure due to vapor and smoke; MOD: Accident;

4. Fire investigator believes the fire started in the driver’s seat, at the seat level or under the dash;

5. Investigators were unable to find evidence of arson or accelerants;

6. A fluid sample was taken for toxicology: there was no presence of illicit substances; the man’s BAC was 0.2 (“A BAC of 0.0 is sober, while in the United States 0.08 is legally intoxicated, and above that is very impaired.[1]”);

7. Investigators theorize the man moved to the passenger seat to get comfortable.

 

[inmyhumbleopinion]

If it was a "misadventure", WHY would she be in the passenger seat?!

Because it perhaps afforded a more comfortable accomodation than drinking in the driver's seat, if she had stopped there for that reason.

So while looking for the Dr. G. episode, I came across the following. Something I had never even considered before:
“By Christopher Coble, Esq. on July 10, 2015 4:08 PM

No one wants to get a DUI. But sometimes we don't realize how intoxicated we are until sitting down behind the wheel.

If you have that moment of clarity, can you just pull over and try and sleep it off? Or can you get charged with DUI, even if you weren't driving at the time?

Take Extra Precautions for the Best Chance at Avoiding a DUI

Even though you tried to do the right thing and not drive, you may have to take a few extra steps to make sure you hopefully don't get arrested. For the best chance at avoiding a DUI, make it clear that you're actually sleeping, and not taking a driving break.

For example, don't sleep in the driver's seat; instead, move to the back seats or at least the passenger seat. Also, don't have your keys on your person. If you place the keys in the trunk, you may be in a better position to convince a police officer that you had no intention of driving.“ (BBM)
How to Sleep It Off in Your Car Without Getting a DUI

“Operating or in Actual Physical Control
However, in the majority of states—Arkansas, Nebraska, and Washington included—being caught sleeping drunk behind the wheel can lead to a DUI conviction. That’s because the DUI laws of most states prohibit ‘operating’ or ‘being in actual physical’ control of a vehicle while under the influence. So, driving is sufficient but not required for a conviction.

[SBM]

Some Factors that Might Come Into Play
A jury will generally look at all the circumstances of a case in determining whether an impaired motorist was operating or in actual physical control of the vehicle. Typically, the closer the driver was to being able to set the car in motion, the more likely the jury is to convict. So, an impaired motorist found sleeping in the back seat with the motor shut off might have a good shot at beating the charge. But a drunk motorist who’s caught draped over the steering wheel with the car running is more likely to be convicted.” (BBM)
Can I Get a DUI for Sleeping Drunk in my Car?

 

[Boston Corbett]

Take Extra Precautions for the Best Chance at Avoiding a DUI

For example, don't sleep in the driver's seat; instead, move to the back seats or at least the passenger seat.

(snip)

This ^ -- this I think explains it best, her presence on the passenger side.

 

[whereareyou]

Thanks for taking notice of my post about the Dr. G episode and the link to it. I seriously think this is a plausible scenario of what happened to Kathleen.