GUILTY WI - LAKE GENEVA SUITCASE MURDERS, Laura Simonson & Jenny Gamez - #2

[Judy]

Anyone have guesses as to when/if charges will be filed in MN anywhere and/or in Kenosha County? I've still seen very little coverage of what happened and at what hotel it happened in Kenosha but that one story that discussed ownership changes of the hotel.

I'm not convinced Laura died at the hotel because she was found with the ball-gag in place and hands behind her back. It would seem to me (limited knowledge of BDSM) that she was being transported in that fashion for later fantasy...Maybe the goal was to keep her alive. It was a long ride back to West Allis with her head in a compromised position (neck flexed in suitcase) and gag in place. She may have died in the suitcase on the way to his house. Maybe that is why there is no proof she died at the hotel - I will be curious, too. LE must have a VIDEO of him leaving with the suitcase but I'm thinking laboratory results will have to prove if she died in the hotel or in the suitcase (or at his apartment).

Either way - there is something real fishy about not reporting the deaths. He never reported their deaths and attempted to dump them and get away with it. Knowing what we know about his personality while being a PO, he seems to me he is arrogant enough (narcissistic) to not give a darn of consequences and feels he's above the law...just my opinion.

 

[joyjoy]

I am going to do some searching for discussion about this case on the BDSM website I frequent. I haven't seen a ton of discussion about it. Also, in many amateur S&M bondage photos shared online, the participants wear masks or conceal their faces, which would make recognizing these ladies really difficult.

EDIT: Sorry, this was in reply to someone asking me if the case was well known enough in the BDSM community that people would recognize pictures of the victims if they stumbled upon them online somewhere.

 

[OhThatVictoria]

I am going to do some searching for discussion about this case on the BDSM website I frequent. I haven't seen a ton of discussion about it.

Look forward to what you find. I have done a bit of research. What I've discovered is that SZ seemed to be practicing BDSM in the extreme which would be referred to as "edge play". This (as you probably know) is a controversial topic within the BDSM community. My question is, did the women sign up for it or is this where he chose to take his scenes to commit murder? (Whether they signed a consent form - OR NOT - he murdered them.)

SZ and CnC (Consensual Non Consent) is a topic of the following blog:

(WARNING: Some individuals might find the content disturbing)

http://kinkytoo.com/forum/lifestyle-theory/589-death-by-s-m-or-but-you-didn-t-say-red?limitstart=0

and as an FYI, CnC is defined as: http://kinkipedia.wikidot.com/wiki:consensual-non-consent

Consensual non-consent, also called meta-consent and blanket consent, is a mutual agreement to be able to act as if consent has been waived. It is an agreement where comprehensive consent is given in advance, with the intent of it being irrevocable under most circumstances. This often occurs without foreknowledge of the exact actions planned.

Consensual non-consent is considered a show of extreme trust and understanding. It is controversial within BDSM circles, even often frowned upon due to concerns about abuse and safety. It is mainly limited to those in Owner/property and 24/7 Master/slave relationships.

In recent years the term has also been used for the practice in play sessions. In the past, the term consensual non-consent was reserved to committed relationships, while the play practice used the umbrella term of edge play. This expanded scope is contentious and the subject of acrimonious debates.
In limited parts of the online BDSM community, "consensual non-consent" is instead used to refer to rape play that includes the use of safe words. This use of the term is commonly frowned upon, especially among total power exchange lifestyle participants. Experienced practitioners of BDSM generally discourage others from using "consensual non-consent" to indicate rape play. This attitude arises from the belief that it is a miscommunication potentially leading to serious and irreparable psychological harm.

 

[Migmuu]

I'm not convinced Laura died at the hotel because she was found with the ball-gag in place and hands behind her back. It would seem to me (limited knowledge of BDSM) that she was being transported in that fashion for later fantasy...Maybe the goal was to keep her alive. It was a long ride back to West Allis with her head in a compromised position (neck flexed in suitcase) and gag in place. She may have died in the suitcase on the way to his house. Maybe that is why there is no proof she died at the hotel - I will be curious, too. LE must have a VIDEO of him leaving with the suitcase but I'm thinking laboratory results will have to prove if she died in the hotel or in the suitcase (or at his apartment).

Either way - there is something real fishy about not reporting the deaths. He never reported their deaths and attempted to dump them and get away with it. Knowing what we know about his personality while being a PO, he seems to me he is arrogant enough (narcissistic) to not give a darn of consequences and feels he's above the law...just my opinion.

There's evidence that Laura was killed in the hotel and was deceased when she was transported out by Zelich. I don't know anything beyond that, though.

 

[Judy]

Very interesting discussion on the BDSM site. I agree with this is not a BDSM issue but one of a murderer who murdered not once, but twice, knowing his participation and behaviors caused their deaths. But lets say the first death occurred as a result of edge play and it was an accident. (A few things come to mind). First, wouldn't anyone with a conscious feel horrified their partner died and refrain from edge play? Even if Jenny consented, HE KNEW it could kill her, and having one body already stowed away, wouldn't the thought that one can die of edge play slow him down, at least?

Okay, (scenario) I'm having sex with someone I met on a dating site and my partner has a heart attack and appears to be dying. I'm going to start CPR and/or I'm calling 911. If no cell phone is available I'd call the hotel operator. What has to be running through my mind to not notify anyone and to stuff his body in a suitcase, or bag, and haul him into my car dead?

It happens again - death by natural causes during sex. Now that I have two men who have died after sex, (BDSM or not), I'll keep them both in a freezer (indefinitely) and dispose of them when the smell gets too bad.

How can "consent" even be part of this defense? How can the fact he had some sex that resulted in his partner living afterwards, be part of this defense?

I've felt from the beginning that it's the conquest and need for total control that motivated SZ. Sex was his avenue. That's my hunch, anyway. The focus on BDSM and sex is a deterrent.

 

[Judy]

http://www.jrn.com/tmj4/news/Suspect-in-suitcase-deaths-to-enters-not-guilty-plea-267544031.html

Murder charges may be filed in Kenosha as early as next week. (very end of video)

 

[HauntsForHope]

"Chances are he has been involved with other women," said Stan Stojkovic, a professor of criminal justice at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. "The question is, did he kill them?"

It will take months to find out, Stojkovic predicted, as investigators continue searching Zelich's computer, other sources of evidence and "drilling the guy day and night" for more information.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/...has-checkered-past-b99309158z1-267276601.html

 

[ClaireNC]

http://www.jrn.com/tmj4/news/Suspect-in-suitcase-deaths-to-enters-not-guilty-plea-267544031.html

Murder charges may be filed in Kenosha as early as next week. (very end of video)

Thanks for posting that Judy and pointing out the comment at the end of the video. Hopefully, we'll see some movement on this case very soon. With him being former LE and how his past activities were glossed over, I've been concerned that this, too, would just be buried. Laura and Jenny deserve justice and this menace needs to be taken off the streets.

Also thanks OhThatVictoria for posting the link to the discussion page. Definitely an interesting discussion going on there.

Joyjoy, Looking forward to hearing about any discussions you find on the forum that you participate in.

 

[ClaireNC]

I'm not convinced Laura died at the hotel because she was found with the ball-gag in place and hands behind her back. It would seem to me (limited knowledge of BDSM) that she was being transported in that fashion for later fantasy...Maybe the goal was to keep her alive. It was a long ride back to West Allis with her head in a compromised position (neck flexed in suitcase) and gag in place. She may have died in the suitcase on the way to his house. Maybe that is why there is no proof she died at the hotel - I will be curious, too. LE must have a VIDEO of him leaving with the suitcase but I'm thinking laboratory results will have to prove if she died in the hotel or in the suitcase (or at his apartment).

Either way - there is something real fishy about not reporting the deaths. He never reported their deaths and attempted to dump them and get away with it. Knowing what we know about his personality while being a PO, he seems to me he is arrogant enough (narcissistic) to not give a darn of consequences and feels he's above the law...just my opinion.

Since NMA mentioned the kidnapping fantasy she discussed with SZ, I've also wondered if they died in the suitcases that they were found in. However, if that were the case, why wouldn't Zelich admit to that? Why would he say he "caused their deaths" in the hotel rooms? It seems like the accident during consensual sex defense would be more believable if he said they agreed to a kidnapping fantasy that involved a suitcase and they died while we were playing out the fantasy. GWIM?

 

[ClaireNC]

There's evidence that Laura was killed in the hotel and was deceased when she was transported out by Zelich. I don't know anything beyond that, though.

Do we know that there is evidence that Laura was killed in the hotel room? Or, is that just what Zelich claimed?

 

[Judy]

Do we know that there is evidence that Laura was killed in the hotel room? Or, is that just what Zelich claimed?

To my knowledge there is no evidence of where they died.

 

[Migmuu]

Do we know that there is evidence that Laura was killed in the hotel room? Or, is that just what Zelich claimed?

Yes, there's actual evidence she was killed in the hotel room that both LE and Laura's family are aware of. It's just that the evidence LE has right now can't be released to the public yet.

I don't know what Zelich has said about it, but I wouldn't trust anything he says unless it's confirmed by LE.

 

[ClaireNC]

Yes, there's actual evidence she was killed in the hotel room that both LE and Laura's family are aware of. It's just that the evidence LE has right now can't be released to the public yet.

I don't know what Zelich has said about it, but I wouldn't trust anything he says unless it's confirmed by LE.

How do you know this? Was the fact that they have evidence that she died in the hotel room reported on in the media?

I don't trust anything Zelich says either.

 

[OhThatVictoria]

The link / discussion that I posted is not easy to follow but demonstrates how divergent opinions are about what activities constitute safe / acceptable and if certain forms of BDSM should even be embraced within the community. Clearly, devotees of the BDSM lifestyle don't want to own SZ as "one of their own". Seems to me that the defense is blowing smoke up our (yannow). It also appears that SZ has spoon fed this defense to his atty.

I'm trying to imagine how the defense is going to posture the BDSM lifestyle when WTMJ's story referred to collarme/collarspace as an X-Rated web site. Introducing BDSM at trial in WI will be like bringing a stripper to a church bake sale. I don't mean to make light of this heinous crime but "my lands", (as my Grandmother used to say), this is going to get interesting.

 

[KDub]

How will the charges not hold up in court? Hiding a corpse....they didn't die the day before he dumped them on the side of the road, he hid them in a suitcase and kept them there for a very long period of time. He obviously took precautions in making sure the bodies were not found previous (including when the cops searched his apartment on earlier visits).

 

[Rallygrrl]

My guess is that the attorneys are playing up the BDSM aspect to distract the public. They did that with Dahmer regarding his involvement in the LBGT community (back then, being gay was still a "fringe" in the Milwaukee community). It is one of those, "Well, the victims were involved in something 'subversive' so they must have deserved it" sort of tactics.

 

[OhThatVictoria]

My guess is that the attorneys are playing up the BDSM aspect to distract the public. They did that with Dahmer regarding his involvement in the LBGT community (back then, being gay was still a "fringe" in the Milwaukee community). It is one of those, "Well, the victims were involved in something 'subversive' so they must have deserved it" sort of tactics.

absolutely. demonize the lifestyle so that people cluck on the sidelines. ignore that man behind the curtain . . .

 

[Migmuu]

How do you know this? Was the fact that they have evidence that she died in the hotel room reported on in the media?

I don't trust anything Zelich says either.

Yes, it was reported in the media:
ABC 7 Chicago: ''Zelich also has a public defender in Olmsted County, Minnesota, where Simonson died in November in a Rochester hotel.''

Daily Mail: ''Police in Rochester announced they have evidence suggesting that Simonson was killed at the Microtel Inn and Suites in town where the victim and Zelich allegedly stayed together on the night of November 2.''

KARE 11: ''...Police said they expect him [Zelich] to be charged with homicide in Minnesota because they believe Simsonson died in a hotel there [...] Investigators have collected evidence from the hotel and interviewed people who stayed there on those days.''

Sorry for being vague before; I wasn't sure if it had been reported in the media. I also believed it was possible that Laura was alive when Zelich took her out of the hotel, but I checked with someone who confirmed that yes, Laura was deceased by that time. They still haven't said what evidence they found in the room, though.

 

[Rallygrrl]

Fact is, murder is murder, no matter what the circumstances. SZ was a former LE officer. He, better than anyone, should have known to call for help if these victims' deaths were truly accidental. Whether it was just plain narcissism or fear of his "secret life" being exposed, it does not matter. But I doubt that is the TRUE reason these women passed. I suspect he simply killed them, on purpose, for his own sick satisfaction. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Hopefully, a jury of his peers will see through the BS his defense attorneys will spin. Luckily, over the past 20 or so years the Wisconsin community has become more liberal regarding issues involving sex and sexuality. Nothing is really that shocking anymore...especially following the Dahmer trial and the utter devastation it caused amongst those in our community as a whole, not just in the LBGT community. No one really trusts the police anymore following the horror regarding Konerack Sinthsasomphone. We now KNOW what happened and how young Konerack was returned to Dahmer by LE and the outcome. So, following that devastation, we all know there are some bad eggs on the police force.

I am confident that a jury is not going to just buy any crud the defense might spin that "leaving the suitcases in the open" constitutes a willingness to turn over the victims' remains to the police. C'mon!

And the fact that SZ had other "girlfriends" who lived means absolutely nothing. So, what? I happen to know someone who met Dahmer on several occasions and he told me Dahmer was a very nice guy and he never had any bad or strange interactions with him. In fact, he referred to Dahmer as "a REALLY nice guy" and was shocked when he found out the atrocities Dahmer committed. Thing is, serial killers and/or sociopaths are VERY GOOD at putting out there to everyone around them that they are "perfectly normal" (in some cases, too normal). So, it would make sense that SZ would have a few women here and there that did not experience anything unusual or fearful. Serial killers often prey on those who can "disappear" unnoticed. Those who have strong family and friend connections are not suitable, since people will notice if they are suddenly not around.

Thing is, with SZ, we have a situation where many people have complained about his behaviors. That is where this gets dicey. It appears SZ was on the radar, but no one in LE did anything. That is police negligence. You have to also keep in mind that Milwaukee Police are also under the microscope right now for recent cases regarding illegal cavity searches and other abuses, especially towards those in the African-American community. On another note, while West Allis police are a different jurisdiction, West Allis is still in Milwaukee County. That is like the UW-Milwaukee police. Yes, the Milwaukee Police Department allows UWM to police itself and the surrounding community, but if something really bad happens, MPD takes over.

 

[Judy]

Introducing BDSM at trial in WI will be like bringing a stripper to a church bake sale.

(spit out my coffee reading this one)

:tyou:

It's the first time I laughed while reading this thread since it started. Thank you OhThatVictoria! Living in Milwaukee, I know this is so true! And, for the size of Milwaukee, it's full of churches and cathedrals (lots of history here), not to mention the statue of The Fonz smack dab in the downtown area. Can anybody say...conservative?