WI WI - Mary Ellen Kaldenberg, 17, Kenosha, 14 Feb 1967

[McSpy]

Forgive me if I do anything wrong, this is my first post. With the feeling that this may have been done by a man and a woman, I have a theory. Is it possible that this was some sort of boyfriend and girlfriend killing a prior love interest of the boyfriend in order to make their love "pure" like the Texas Cadet murder of Adrianne Jones? The cuts to the face (perhaps to make her less beautiful?), the overkill (rage?) of the stabbing and the configuration of the body in a hearse (going to wear she belongs (in their minds)?) all read like a revenge killing for a lover's triangle to me.

I agree. It seems like jealousy was the driving force.

 

[McSpy]

@McSpy - regarding a P.I. (re)interviewing her friends. That is the definately a great place to start. Sometimes the person that is the most jealous can be someone who is very close to us. Obsessed....
Creepy stuff.

I wonder if crime stoppers could help with a reward or with some publicity. Maybe, some posters can be distributed throughout the town. Sometimes a reminder of the crime will help push someone to call with a tip.

 

[helpthevictims]

I keep going back to the renters.

Was there possibly a renter who was previously homeless? Perhaps he knew about the hearse because that's where he used to sleep. A renter would be somebody Mary Ellen knew and she might have accepted a ride from. The renter might know of her unplanned trip to the store and seized the opportunity.

To stab somebody, you have to be close to them. You are a foot from their face. The same would be true of the individual holding her down. The perp would be looking in her eyes as it happened.

IDK - I just can't imagine a high school rival doing that. But then, again, I am often shocked at what people do to each other.

jealousy is one of the oldest motivations to murder. I appreciate your thoughts but what do you believe a renters motive would be? There was no sexual assault of any type. I would venture to say that these borders were probably very poor and more than likely didn't even own cars. I'm sure the police checked all that out, but belive me they were lead to suspects for reasons being shared throught the town. I wondered about them too but no suspects there. thank you for you suggestions.

 

[helpthevictims]

I apologize if you have already answered this, but has a PI ever investigated this case? i think tracking down some of Mary Ellen's classmates and friends to see if there were rumors (that may be true) could lead to solving this crime. After all this time, someone may talk or have a change of heart about getting involved. If it was a case of jealousy and hate, the perp usually goes on and on about how they despise the person. Someone from back in 1967 may have a clue if Mary Ellen had enemies.

Well that just it, they have. LE has had someone thru the years as the suspect(s) had "shot off their mouths" about it and that is what has led them to believe what they belive. I am trying to track that person down. You know who you are and I would be forever grateful if you were to contact me. There are questions I feel you could answer. Please, you are the key to all of this and I know you would be offered immunity with LE. I believe you already have been since you went to them with what you knew. Your my only hope. Please contact me through private message and from there I would give you my number. I feel no anger toward you. It's not your fault what happened. PLEASE.

 

[helpthevictims]

Wouldn't Mary Ellen be 62 years old today? Perhap, Mr. Crane attended the same high school and was a classmate.

Yes and he was. He states he grew up with them and was friends with Mary Ellens brother. Robert Crane where are you????? Why won't you contact me? Why won't you contact LE? I would hope your motives are not just for profits of a book, but to offer the answers to this mystery. We should all be working together. PLEASE CONTACT ME ROBERT!!!!!!

 

[helpthevictims]

I wonder if crime stoppers could help with a reward or with some publicity. Maybe, some posters can be distributed throughout the town. Sometimes a reminder of the crime will help push someone to call with a tip.

You nailed it. That exactly what I want to do. However there is a time and a place for everything. LE and I have discussed this and I will be making a trip there as soon as I am able. I stinks to have to be patient, believe me. You must have been a fly on the wall when I expressed what I wanted to do" LOL Thank you.

 

[rosesfromangels]

@helpthevictims - May I suggest you contact the District Attorney's Office to discuss the possibility of bringing "Obstruction of Justice" charges against this individual as it relates to his involvement (and concealment) of crucial information related to this murder investigation. Further, you might look in to charges of "Intentional Infliction of Emotion Distress." What he has done is unconscionable;stating (and posting it all over the internet), that he knows who murdered your Cousin, and then not providing a name and details because he wants to profit from writing a d*mn book about it?! What a warped, horrible, human being. Get the District Attorney's office after this CREEP.

 

[mamashawn]

@helpthevictims - May I suggest you contact the District Attorney's Office to discuss the possibility of bringing "Obstruction of Justice" charges against this individual as it relates to his involvement (and concealment) of crucial information related to this murder investigation. Further, you might look in to charges of "Intentional Infliction of Emotion Distress." What he has done is unconscionable;stating (and posting it all over the internet), that he knows who murdered your Cousin, and then not providing a name and details because he wants to profit from writing a d*mn book about it?! What a warped, horrible, human being. Get the District Attorney's office after this CREEP.

Yes and he was. He states he grew up with them and was friends with Mary Ellens brother. Robert Crane where are you????? Why won't you contact me? Why won't you contact LE? I would hope your motives are not just for profits of a book, but to offer the answers to this mystery. We should all be working together. PLEASE CONTACT ME ROBERT!!!!!!

Have LE contact him. His address and phone # can be found online. Rosesfromangels posted the link above.


I can't access the ancestry site, so I can't read the original posts, but you stated that he knew who the killer was, and he was also looking for another female classmate. What if he and the other classmate were the other two points of this (speculated) love triangle? Just my opinion.

Even if he's not, I agree what what I quoted first. His withholding information is NOT helping the case. And as far as I can tell, this "book" would be his first. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

 

[McSpy]

Have LE contact him. His address and phone # can be found online. Rosesfromangels posted the link above.


I can't access the ancestry site, so I can't read the original posts, but you stated that he knew who the killer was, and he was also looking for another female classmate. What if he and the other classmate were the other two points of this (speculated) love triangle? Just my opinion.

Even if he's not, I agree what what I quoted first. His withholding information is NOT helping the case. And as far as I can tell, this "book" would be his first. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I think LE should question him, but I don't think they can hold him on anything. Perhaps, he can be of help. LE has been stuck. It looks like he went to school with Mary Ellen, so I'm thinking he may have some insight LE needs to solve this case. Somebody said he could be charged with obstruction of justice. There is no proof of that and he could stay mute if he wishes. It is better to befriend him to see if he has anything worthwhile for LE to move this case forward.

 

[mamashawn]

I think LE should question him, but I don't think they can hold him on anything. Perhaps, he can be of help. LE has been stuck. It looks like he went to school with Mary Ellen, so I'm thinking he may have some insight LE needs to solve this case. Somebody said he could be charged with obstruction of justice. There is no proof of that and he could stay mute if he wishes. It is better to befriend him to see if he has anything worthwhile for LE to move this case forward.

If he truly wanted this case solved why hasn't he shared what he knows with the police? He started posting that he had information--that he knew who murdered her--back in 95.

And IIRC, the cousin has contacted him trying to befriend him, but he has not responded.

I don't know if they could hold him for anything or charge him with anything specific, but I do know that his actions (or inactions) are suspicious.

 

[Robin Hood]

I'm going to do more investigating but thought I'd mention John Norman Collins aka Chapman.
By all accounts he was a weird guy. He murdered a woman (who had just nipped out to post a letter) while on holiday in California as well as in the Michigan area.
Michigan murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Robin Hood]

Some newspaper links that mention Mary Ellen

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=5974,1543022&dq=mary+ellen+kaldenberg&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=3614,1475002&dq=mary+ellen+kaldenberg&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=7233,2056085&dq=mary+ellen+kaldenberg&hl=en

 

[McSpy]

If he truly wanted this case solved why hasn't he shared what he knows with the police? He started posting that he had information--that he knew who murdered her--back in 95.

And IIRC, the cousin has contacted him trying to befriend him, but he has not responded.

I don't know if they could hold him for anything or charge him with anything specific, but I do know that his actions (or inactions) are suspicious.

He is definitely someone LE should question. He may have some insight or a tip for them. I just don't think he can be held on an obstruction of justice charge. I do agree that he does seem suspicious. Anyone, who writes a crime book likes contact with the family of the victim and/or perp for background info, leads, and context. According to what you have said, he hasn't contacted Mary Ellen's family in any way. How can someone write a good book without knowing everything about Mary Ellen? Perhaps, he is a novice or just bad at it?

 

[McSpy]

I'm going to do more investigating but thought I'd mention John Norman Collins aka Chapman.
By all accounts he was a weird guy. He murdered a woman (who had just nipped out to post a letter) while on holiday in California as well as in the Michigan area.
Michigan murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This guy seems to fit somewhat as far as MO, especially the shoe placement. Although, there was no stabbing involved:

In late March 1969, Jane Mixer was found in Denton Cemetery, just off of Michigan Avenue, a few miles east of Ypsilanti, in Van Buren Township, Michigan. A law student at the University of Michigan, she had been shot and strangled. Her shoes and a copy of Joseph Heller's novel Catch-22 were placed by her side. Initially her death was thought to be related to this sequence of homicides; however, in 2005, 62-year-old Gary Leiterman, a former nurse, was convicted of murder in the death of Jane Mixer.[1][2]

 

[McSpy]

Here is more on Gary Leiterman:

Leiterman grew up outside Detroit and lived near Ann Arbor as a young man. After a stint in the Navy, he had worked as a traveling pharmaceutical salesman in that region in the late 1960s.

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_news/L/LEITERMAN_gary.php

I wonder how big his sales region was at the time or if there would have been another reason he could have been in Wisconsin. Note that in the Jane Mixer murder, she was left in a cemetary. A hearse and a cemetary are symbols with the same meaning.

I could be way off on this, but there seems to be a similar MO.

 

[lucasd]

Being a Kenosha resident when this happened and currently, I do not see a link between the cases. There were many bars and factories in the neighborhood, but in my opinion I believe that this was done with the involvement of a girl. My sister was Mary Ellens friend and according to her Mary was shy and it may be that someone did not like the idea of her having a boyfriend or that particular boyfriend.

 

[McSpy]

Being a Kenosha resident when this happened and currently, I do not see a link between the cases. There were many bars and factories in the neighborhood, but in my opinion I believe that this was done with the involvement of a girl. My sister was Mary Ellens friend and according to her Mary was shy and it may be that someone did not like the idea of her having a boyfriend or that particular boyfriend.

Interesting . . .this was my intial feeling when I first read about this case. I had a feeling that a female committed this crime out of jealousy or envy of some sort. Did your sister have any idea who the girl may be? Did Mary ever make a comment to your sister about a particular girl acting mean or odd to her?

 

[lucasd]

Interesting . . .this was my intial feeling when I first read about this case. I had a feeling that a female committed this crime out of jealousy or envy of some sort. Did your sister have any idea who the girl may be? Did Mary ever make a comment to your sister about a particular girl acting mean or odd to her?

My sister said that Mary Ellen was very shy but they did walk to school together when they went to Lincoln. They did not attend the same high school due to the district boundries so they did not see too much of each other after Jr. High. This has been haunting her since it happened. Although the town was small it was considered to be "little chicago" because it is situated between Milwaukee and Chicago. Kenosha is notorius for the amount of taverns especially in the area where Mary Ellen was discovered. I am trying to dig up as much information as I can because I believe the family deserves to know why this happened.

 

[McSpy]

My sister said that Mary Ellen was very shy but they did walk to school together when they went to Lincoln. They did not attend the same high school due to the district boundries so they did not see too much of each other after Jr. High. This has been haunting her since it happened. Although the town was small it was considered to be "little chicago" because it is situated between Milwaukee and Chicago. Kenosha is notorius for the amount of taverns especially in the area where Mary Ellen was discovered. I am trying to dig up as much information as I can because I believe the family deserves to know why this happened.

Was there any rumors going around at the time of a suspect? Sometimes kids talk. Did your sister and Mary Ellen have mutual friends, who may know something or have an idea of may have happened?

I have a feeling the police were concentrating on a male as being the perp, because the murder happened in the early 60s. The thinking back then was old fashioned or pretty narrow sometimes, so they may not have thought about the possibility of a female being responsible.

 

[shadowangel]

I just finished reading through the thread, and have a few random thoughts...

I'm passingly familiar with the murders of Sharon Malone and Cheryl Packard, mentioned in one of the posted articles in reference to Mary Ellen's murder. I had read about their case while researching the February 1966 murder of Debbie Fijan. As I recall, 27 year old (at the time) Robert Kramer--who had already been convicted of previous assaults in the area--was tried and convicted of their murder and thought to be involved in other stabbing murders in the area in the same time frame.

Robert Kramer is kinda (and uncomfortably) similar to Robert Crane, mentioned in previous posts as allegedly claiming to have inside knowledge of Mary Ellen's murder.

And while on the subject of Debbie Fijan, its hard not to mention Richard Otto Macek, whom we discussed in depth on Debbie's thread. Macek, though a resident of the Chicago, IL area, is known to have committed at least four murders in WI (one, at a hotel in Lake Geneva---some 30 or 40 miles from Kenosha). Macek was incarcerated in late '67, released in '71, and committed his first confirmed murder in '72. Some of us who have been researching the Debbie Fijan murder feel that he most likely starting killing after the death of his father in early '66.
Debbie was murdered almost one year to the day before Mary Ellen disappeared.
It's been mentioned in this thread that Mary Ellen had cuts on her face---Macek's signatures, if you will, were biting his victims and cutting the faces (specifically, around the eyes).

On another note, I personally feel that her being found in a hearse was incidental to her murder. The vehicle, a 1948 Packard, would have presented itself as a convenient location to hide Mary Ellen's body (or to commit the actual murder). These vehicles, converted to hearses by the Henney Auto Co, had cavernous interiors. Known as 3-way Side Service hearses, they had large doors on both sides (behind the driver and passenger doors) allowing the caskets to be placed inside from the sides as well as the back. This particular Packard had been painted white with blue lettering advertising a local tavern, and didn't present the typical ominous presence that we associate with a hearse.