WI WI - Milwaukee, WhtFem 40-60, UP7792, MickeyMouse watch, wedd'g ring w/ 'Emiliano 28-1-1953', May'74

[UnlicensedPI]

I was looking at the watch. It could be nothing of course, but I am reading R 1/2, and at first I thought it said Norwegianoa...or something, but when I zoomed in it looked more like Nouvagianoa...I am unable to make out the last letter.

Brand: Bradley, Swiss made, Walt Disney production.

It appears the mickey mouse design was fairly recent, since the one in 1972 had a more old-fashioned style to it, whilst around, cirka 1975, Mickey Mouse took on that pink face, and rounder shape that we are familiar with today.
So this watch is from somewhere between 1972 and 1974 when she died.

1972 mickey watch
View attachment 296645

"CIRKA" 1975 Mickey
View attachment 296646

Jane Doe's watch

Source

It definitely says Norwegian-something. It could be oah, oahl, ouh, ouhl, cah, cahl...

I think the R 1/2 means refers to right wrist and the band size, but I'm not completely sure. If it was a right wrist watch, she was likely left handed.

 

[UnlicensedPI]

Her Independent Lock Co key is from Fitchburg, MA. The company closed in the 70s. Her jacket was also manufactured in Boston. I don't know how far outside Boston these items could have traveled. If they stayed close to the area, it could be where she was living before making her way out to WI.

 

[buyerninety]

Mireille, UnlicensedPI
I don't think it has any particular relevancy, but to
satisfy your curiousity, it would be;
'Norwegian Oak' - there seems to be some support
for thinking that that type of oak has that type of
grey colour (like the watch band colour).

[URL]https://productsdirect.com/mannington-norwegian-oak-oak-elk-nrw06elkt1.html[/URL]

 

[UnlicensedPI]

UnlicensedPI
I don't think it has any particular relevancy, but to
satisfy your curiousity, it would be;
'Norwegian Oak' - there seems to be some support
for thinking that that type of oak has that type of
grey colour (like the watch band colour).

[URL]https://productsdirect.com/mannington-norwegian-oak-oak-elk-nrw06elkt1.html[/URL]

That looks right, thank you! I agree, it's probably not relevant. These watches were mass produced. There are a ton of other Does with watches like it.

 

[carbuff]

UnlicensedPI
I don't think it has any particular relevancy, but to
satisfy your curiousity, it would be;
'Norwegian Oak' - there seems to be some support
for thinking that that type of oak has that type of
grey colour (like the watch band colour).

[URL]https://productsdirect.com/mannington-norwegian-oak-oak-elk-nrw06elkt1.html[/URL]

"Isn't it good Norwegian wood..."

 

[Susikatze]

"Isn't it good Norwegian wood..."

I had the same thought...used to be a Beatles buff in my teens (i am in my 30's, lol).

 

[carbuff]

I had the same thought...used to be a Beatles buff in my teens (i am in my 30's, lol).

Oh you sweet young thing...(that's another song, from when I wasn't quite a teen )

 

[CreatureIDontKnow]

I also live in Milwaukee. Happy to help in any way I can.

 

[Lwieckowicz]

What do you guys think? On ancestry.com I found an Emiliano Vargas who was married on January 28th 1953 to an Ysabel Lopez who was around 16 at the time in Hidalgo Mexico. He has a date of death of 2/2/59 in Mexico but there is no further information about his wife she has no death date listed. Can anyone else see more? I was wondering if she came to the United States by chance and if she wore the ring still?

 

[madamx]

Her Independent Lock Co key is from Fitchburg, MA. The company closed in the 70s. Her jacket was also manufactured in Boston. I don't know how far outside Boston these items could have traveled. If they stayed close to the area, it could be where she was living before making her way out to WI.

I wonder if they or she had ti Boston and had family there?

 

[Lwieckowicz]

I found something that might be relevant, but I don't know enough about Latino naming conventions to be sure. I know the first surname is paternal, second is maternal, but I'm confused about Emiliano. Would he be Vargas Felix or Vargas Lopez? Would Isabel's married name be Vargas Lopez or would she take Emiliano's surnames? I'm also working with Google translate, so if any Spanish speakers can better translate... Relevant sections snipped by me:

DOF: 06/07/1976
RESOLUTION on recognition and titling of communal assets of the town of San Mateo, Municipality of Acaxochitlán, Hdo
The 158 community members found in the census are:
116.- Emiliano Vargas López
DOF - Diario Oficial de la Federación

There's an Isabel Vargas but she's Isabel Vargas Jimenez, and I'm assuming she's not the same woman. If our Isabel isn't listed in this document, does that mean she's not in Acaxochitlan anymore? Would she be counted in this census if she didn't own property/land?

That’s the persons who wedding license I found

 

[UnlicensedPI]

That’s the persons who wedding license I found

Yes, I posted their marriage license on post #95 of this thread

 

[Cryptic]

Would Isabel's married name be Vargas Lopez or would she take Emiliano's surnames?

Women in Hispanic countries do not usually take their husband's names. Rather, they retain their birth last names after the marriage.

As a result, after her marriage, Isabel's name would be: Isabel Vargas Lopez.

On the relatively rare occasion that a women from a Hispanic country takes her husband's name, she still retains her paternal last name. The addition of the husband's last name is denoted by adding "of" (de is Spanish) to her names.

Thus....

Isabel Vargas de (husband's paternal last name)

 

[Cryptic]

There's an Isabel Vargas but she's Isabel Vargas Jimenez, and I'm assuming she's not the same woman. If our Isabel isn't listed in this document, does that mean she's not in Acaxochitlan anymore? Would she be counted in this census if she didn't own property/land?

I dont think its a census. Rather, it seems to be an ejido type recognition. Going back into Mexican historical trivia......

Following one of their many civil wars, a peace treaty was reached where wealthy Mexicans ceded about 20% of their land to poorer Mexicans.

But.... the land was not given to the new owners as individuals. Rather, the land was placed in a communal trust. It could then be used by all the members of a community according to various internal rules.

Anyways..... The record in question seems to be a computerized version of an older document saying something to the effect of:

- The following people are recognized / acknowledged as members of community "C" (lists them out)
- Community members have access to the following communal land plots (lists them out).

My very general knowledge is that rules regarding when somebody is "de listed" from an ejido type arrangement vary alot. It could well mean that the person moved away and is no longer considered a member of the community.

 

[Friday Fan]

I found something that might be relevant, but I don't know enough about Latino naming conventions to be sure. I know the first surname is paternal, second is maternal, but I'm confused about Emiliano. Would he be Vargas Felix or Vargas Lopez? Would Isabel's married name be Vargas Lopez or would she take Emiliano's surnames? I'm also working with Google translate, so if any Spanish speakers can better translate... Relevant sections snipped by me:

DOF: 06/07/1976
RESOLUTION on recognition and titling of communal assets of the town of San Mateo, Municipality of Acaxochitlán, Hdo
The 158 community members found in the census are:
116.- Emiliano Vargas López
DOF - Diario Oficial de la Federación

There's an Isabel Vargas but she's Isabel Vargas Jimenez, and I'm assuming she's not the same woman. If our Isabel isn't listed in this document, does that mean she's not in Acaxochitlan anymore? Would she be counted in this census if she didn't own property/land?

Per Spanish naming:
If Isabel Jimenez married Emiliano Vargas Lopez, her married name would be Isabel Vargas Jimenez

What happens is, when people immigrate to the US, they "generally" flip to our customs, but sometimes they don't, so it can cause confusion.

So, if she had been in US for awhile, her name could also have been Isabel Jimenez Vargas.

In both US and Mexico her name is also Isabel Vargas.

BTW: The Bishop of the Green Bay Diocese was Aloysius during this time.
Aloysius John Wycisło - Wikipedia

St. Aloysius was popular with the local Slavic/Polish community. (I just found out Aloysius was Italian...I always thought he was Polish)
Other ethnic groups often adapt to local customs.

Probably mentioned earlier, there was a St Aloysius Church in the Milwaukee area: Last Masses to Be Held at St. Aloysius Parish - Catholic Herald

 

[Friday Fan]

personally to think there is a Jesuit connection as there are several more popularaints that have teens and students as their patronage. I've never know anyone who wore a St. Aloysius medal and I spent more time than I care to acknowledge in Catholic school.
I agree that her profile screams Native American. The Jesuits were very active (and still are to a great extent) with the indigenous populations of the Americas and had settled in Wisconsin as early as 1667.

.

St. Aloysius could point to Native American in Wisconsin.
In the late 70s, Native Americans often dated Mexican-Americans. I don't know if the trend was popular back in 1953.

St. Aloysius is popular in Wisconsin...
A St. Aloysius medal in Wisconsin doesn't really indicate ethnicity, but I would assume it would be more likely associated with Native Americans than Latinos, but cultures often adapt/adopt.

There is a post-mortem on the Milwaukee County Medical Examiners site...
I can't tell Italian noses from Native-American noses. However, I'm inclined to believe she's NA or Latino.
Unidentified People | Milwaukee County Medical Examiner

 

[Cryptic]

Per Spanish naming:
If Isabel Jimenez married Emiliano Vargas Lopez, her married name would be Isabel Vargas Jimenez

A gentle correction:

That is not the Spanish naming format followed in Mexico or the Spanish countries that I am familiar with.

In Mexico, women almost all women retain their birth last names. If a Mexican woman takes her husband's last name, it is done through the "de" denotation.

Thus....

Isabel Jimenez ( apparent lack of a paternal last name strongly implies out of wedlock birth) marries Emiliano Vargas Lopez. Her new married name is:

- Isabel Jimenez -or-
- Isabel Jimenez de Vargas

 

[Friday Fan]

A gentle correction:

That is not the Spanish naming format followed in Mexico or the Spanish countries that I am familiar with.

In Mexico, women almost all women retain their birth last names. If a Mexican woman takes her husband's last name, it is done through the "de" denotation.

Thus....

Isabel Jimenez ( apparent lack of a paternal last name strongly implies out of wedlock birth) marries Emiliano Vargas Lopez. Her new married name is:

- Isabel Jimenez -or-
- Isabel Jimenez de Vargas

I did not know this...

I'm looking at hubby's records. All records for women in Mexico are in their maiden names. (from what I can see of death records, which aren't many)

However, one of his great grandmothers was born in 1874 came to the US in 1923 as a widow, she died in 1929. Her maiden name was Hernandez, she married a Puente. Her death certificate is: H De Puente. Headstone is Puente.

On other hand, one of his grandmothers was born in Mexico in 1897, she came to the US in 1912. (Age 14). Her maiden name was Ramirez, she married a Medrano. In the 1920 Census, she is Carmen Medrano US format. Her death certificate in 1970 is Carmen R Medrano.

(Names changed to protect the living..LOL)

 

[Cryptic]

I did not know this...

I'm looking at hubby's records. All records for women in Mexico are in their maiden names. (from what I can see of death records, which aren't many)

However, one of his great grandmothers was born in 1874 came to the US in 1923 as a widow, she died in 1929. Her maiden name was Hernandez, she married a Puente. Her death certificate is: H De Puente. Headstone is Puente.

On other hand, one of his grandmothers was born in Mexico in 1897, she came to the US in 1912. (Age 14). Her maiden name was Ramirez, she married a Medrano. In the 1920 Census, she is Carmen Medrano US format. Her death certificate in 1970 is Carmen R Medrano.

The Puente and Carmen R. Medrano variations are US in origin and not per Spanish custom.

As you stated earlier, these US variations could well be the result of immigrants adapting to US naming formats, or using a hybrid naming format following their arrival into the US.

Or.... they could be the result of US officials, to varying degrees, just anglicizing naming formats without consulting the immigrant. The motivations could have been paternalism, a desire to help the immigrant adapt, or an attempt to follow a Spanish naming format that they did not understand.

 

[Cryptic]

St. Aloysius could point to Native American in Wisconsin.
In the late 70s, Native Americans often dated Mexican-Americans. I don't know if the trend was popular back in 1953.

I suspect it was even more common in 1953.

A few generations ago in small town Wisconsin it was generally expected that whites marry not only other whites, but also marry with in their ethnic sub group (WASP to WASP, Polish to Polish, Irish to Irish etc.). Failure to do so raised eyebrows and possible family opposition.

As Native Americans were not white, their marriage options to whites of any sub ethnicity at that time was going to be limited. Same with the small number of Mexican immigrants in Wisconsin at that time.

If no Hispanics were available for dating, substituting in whites was going to be problematic to varying degrees. But.... NAs and Hispanics can have similar appearances and a lot of Wisconsin NAs are also Catholic. Thus, smoother sailing dating wise.