Wikileaks takes on the LDS AND Scientology!

[Karole28]

Okay. I stand corrected. :innocent:

:blowkiss:

Watch this

 

[Salem]

I feel safe quoting South because I know she is a poster that doesnt mind when others disagree. We could use about 50 more people with that mind set and have some great discussions!:dance:

South, you said that "Bashing is often part of debate because people find some modes of worship evil, dangerous, illegal and/or insane and they can't help but speak out against that"

If people find a religion insane or evil or any of the other things you mentioned above, they SHOULD speak out. Most definitely! I am just thinking that can be done w/o bashing. Bashing is when the emotion kicks in. Things become ALL bad or ALL good. There is nothing left to generate conversation with at that point.

I have seen some amazing conversations take place here at WS on incredibly difficult topics with strongly held opinions and no bashing. Those are the posters I am most impressed with. And that most especially includes the ones who are on the opposite side of the argument from me.

But I think that I am being idealistic, whereas South is being realistic.

Great post Glow! I agree people should speak out, not just about religion, but anything insane or evil and especially when it involves the unwilling or coercered participation of another human being or helpless animal.

And I think Blaize's comments were very appropriate. We should not be reluctant to explore new ideas, read other ideas, or to research something on our own if we are so inclined.

This thread was started based on reports published from what I gather to be a "respected" source regarding some religious practices. It is in the "up to the minute" thread, which is an "open" forum for current events. I know nothing of Scientology but I have read a portion of Hubbard's book. I found it very interesting, actually. It's been a long time, but I liked all that talk about "getting free" from all your ills without a dr's help. And I actually was baptised a mormon, but I am definitely a nonpracticing one.

I would venture to say there are some positives about both religions, however that would never negate the need to investigate alleged illegal or harmful behavior practiced by such an institution. Some folks who join such religions can be very vunerable and its a good thing to keep a "watch" out. Not to pry necessarily, but to kind of keep a "finger on the pulse" kind of like one might watch the economic rollercoaster.

To make a long post short - I say sleuth away on this stuff! It appears there is more to the story......

Salem

 

[Details]

And there is bashing, and there are people who consider any disagreement or different opinion, particularly when accompanied by unpleasant truths and facts to be bashing. I'd consider a lot of overheated rhetoric unaccompanied by facts to be bashing, but when the facts are there - then it's a substantiated opinion, not a bash.

 

[southcitymom]

I feel safe quoting South because I know she is a poster that doesnt mind when others disagree. We could use about 50 more people with that mind set and have some great discussions!:dance:

South, you said that "Bashing is often part of debate because people find some modes of worship evil, dangerous, illegal and/or insane and they can't help but speak out against that"

If people find a religion insane or evil or any of the other things you mentioned above, they SHOULD speak out. Most definitely! I am just thinking that can be done w/o bashing. Bashing is when the emotion kicks in. Things become ALL bad or ALL good. There is nothing left to generate conversation with at that point.

I have seen some amazing conversations take place here at WS on incredibly difficult topics with strongly held opinions and no bashing. Those are the posters I am most impressed with. And that most especially includes the ones who are on the opposite side of the argument from me.

But I think that I am being idealistic, whereas South is being realistic.

You really are absolutely right and since I usually live in Ideal-Land, I should have caught myself. I guess what I meant to get across is that "bashing" is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe it's like porn - hard to define, but I know it when I see it.

I don't mind at all when people question - even angrily - other religions. I, like you, adore most of the discussions that take place here along those lines. But I do not like when things turn abusive, because there is just no need.

I like that you attached bashing to emotion. I never really thought about it in those terms. Thanks for diagreeing with me, Glow - you know how much I love it when you do that!!:blowkiss:

 

[southcitymom]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Then do what you came here to do!!!!!

Quit making me laugh. I'm trying to have serious discussion here!

 

[Ciara]

I dont agree with bashing. I do think its ok to have an opinion and I do think that those opinions depend on whether we see something as a Religion or as a Cult. Personally, I dont see Scientology as a Religion and thats my opinion

 

[Malapoo]

I didn't realize a lot of Mormon literature was secret and not even the female members can see it. That bothers me. I believe that true religion should be open and available to all - members or not - male or female. If they have "secrets" it makes me skeptical and suspicious.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

As long as they've not harming people, stealing or engaging in other illegal practices then they should be given the respect or disrespect depending on your stance that any other religious group gets.

And that is exactly what Scientology does. The simple fact is that the CoS is organized crime masquerading as organized religion.

I had a brief taste of their tactics in the early 1980's when a Scientologist friend invited me to a class on "Communication". It really should have been called "Brain-Washing 101". It was designed to produce an altered state of awareness to reduce a person's resistance to the CoS's sales pitch.

And a sales pitch it was. Scientologists will not tell you that to acheive "clear" (their version of spiritual perfection), it will cost a person hundreds of thousands of dollars! Resistance based on financial concerns are ridiculed as the "you don't really want to get better". Customers are badgered to borrow the money for classes from family and friends. When those people properly refuse to loan the money, the church brands thems as bigots against Scientology.

My friend eventually lost his job as a manager because the church convinced him to ask his employees to take out a second mortgage on their homes to finance his spiritual growth. Again, the church told him that he was the victim of anti-Scientology discrimination. But not to worry, the church offered him a job - all he had to do was sign a promissary note for tens of thousands of dollars to be trained at the church's HQ in Florida. After his training, he returned and worked 80 hour weeks for the church. He received his first paycheck for 160 hours of work of...$14. He immediately called me to get him out of this situation and I helped him disappear from the church's prying eyes. Church goons visited my house a few times, making thinly-veiled threats (both spiritual and financial). Eventually, they gave up and went away.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

Thank you Dr. Doogie for your comments.

If we are here to sleuth, then by all means share experiences and insights that are specific. I think general hatred or dislike of groups is what irritates me.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Another little insight to what Scientology is all about:

Because my friend was farther down the brainwashing path than I was, I ended up attending a meeting that I was not "ready" to hear. The leader spoke about submitting to the Church's authority. Now I know that mainstream churches of all faiths will ask for the same sort of commitment from their members, but here is the difference: the Scientologists specifically stated that one of the duties of a church member was to "pay midnight visits to our enemies". Somehow, I don't think that these visits were to pass out pamphlets.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Clearly, I'm no fan of Scientology and I wish it never touched my familys life but I have always attempted to discuss not only the negative changes in my brother since he joined but some positive changes in him as well. Granted, there are far more negative changes but I'm not about to begrudge the positives!

Like many things in life, Scientology isn't simply black or white.. there are many, many shades of gray involved. I'm not gonna get into all the Scientology stuff again though.. every time a Scientology thread is made I feel like a broken record LOL.

 

[southcitymom]

Clearly, I'm no fan of Scientology and I wish it never touched my familys life but I have always attempted to discuss not only the negative changes in my brother since he joined but some positive changes in him as well. Granted, there are far more negative changes but I'm not about to begrudge the positives!

Like many things in life, Scientology isn't simply black or white.. there are many, many shades of gray involved. I'm not gonna get into all the Scientology stuff again though.. every time a Scientology thread is made I feel like a broken record LOL.

I always appreciate your input on this subject, OLG!:blowkiss:

 

[Salem]

Nice post Adnoid - I admit that I often find myself in a place where I can not intellectually refute something "on the spur of the moment." I have to go away and figure out "why" I feel the way I do about something. I am going to memorize your words about mentally substituting "I cannot intellecutally refute" whatever it is I'm hating at the moment and keep quiet until I can "intellectually refute" it.

Some things become very "emotional," especially religion and it is hard to work from an intellectual mind frame.

I think there can be good in most religions, along with bad. Maybe we should take all the good and start the "good" religion. Never work though, because what some would think was good, others would think was bad. Its that uniqueness in all of us that helps to frame our "spiritual aura."

Salem

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Religion choices will always be a part of our lives and discussion. I do not believe there is "the one" faith, but I do believe that the heart of the person who chooses their faith is true to themselves and their faith.

That said, there will always be some people out there who will take advantage of their religion for their own needs/wants. They are the people who hurt, to the very essence, the basis that faith is based on. No matter if you are a Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Sciencetology (sp?)..whatever is out there. The extreme focus of these people hurt them.

Then, you have those who are so fixed on their own faith that they forget the very basics. Fervent religious who cannot see beyond their own "place" outside to others. There is judgement because others do not "get it" and therefore are lessor than.

Debating and learning from others of a different faith is *always* good. I may agree/disagree, but I can walk away with that new knowledge that I had not known before. Learning a new respect for those who are not from a faith that I am. That is good.

I am a born christened Catholic, schooled by the Mercy nuns, loved the way the church held me dear back in the 70's, and have not been an active participant for quite a few years. Personal as well as questioning is the reason. However, I ***know*** I have a Higher power beside me all the time and that Power knows my heart and soul. That is good.

So, I see no bashing when it comes to differences of thought. I see an opportunity to learn. I do not believe there is "the one" religion, but I think we should always be careful not to lose ourselves within it. Higher power gave to/for us. I do not think that Power would be happy if we lost ourselves and those around us do to "people" who try and control the goodness and heart of a faith we choose. Then we have lost the whole point of faith beyond us. Did that make sense?

Just sharing my very humble opinion...

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Nice post Adnoid - I admit that I often find myself in a place where I can not intellectually refute something "on the spur of the moment." I have to go away and figure out "why" I feel the way I do about something. I am going to memorize your words about mentally substituting "I cannot intellecutally refute" whatever it is I'm hating at the moment and keep quiet until I can "intellectually refute" it.

Some things become very "emotional," especially religion and it is hard to work from an intellectual mind frame.

I think there can be good in most religions, along with bad. Maybe we should take all the good and start the "good" religion. Never work though, because what some would think was good, others would think was bad. Its that uniqueness in all of us that helps to frame our "spiritual aura."

Salem

I'm not so sure you can intellectually refute a belief. Faith is within a person's heart and soul. It's personal. I do not believe debating the Bible or any other Holy Book. Because they are written not as fixed words, but as lessons. I do not mean to take away their importance, but I see them as a guide. Not as written words that should be taken verbatim.

 

[Glow]

I think there can be good in most religions, along with bad. Maybe we should take all the good and start the "good" religion. Never work though, because what some would think was good, others would think was bad. Its that uniqueness in all of us that helps to frame our "spiritual aura."

Salem

What a beautiful thought Salem!

 

[Salem]

I'm not so sure you can intellectually refute a belief. Faith is within a person's heart and soul. It's personal. I do not believe debating the Bible or any other Holy Book. Because they are written not as fixed words, but as lessons. I do not mean to take away their importance, but I see them as a guide. Not as written words that should be taken verbatim.

I'm not sure Data about the "intellectually refute" part. I think we have an "inner intellect" that is based on our emotional, mental, spiritual makeup. For example, do you remember when you were just a kid and had to make a choice about something? You kind of knew one of those choices was wrong. Couldn't put why it was wrong into words, but you knew. To me that is the "inner intellect" and it comes into play as you work through the decision. There are some of us, I would venture to assume, that made the wrong choice and some that made the right choice. For those who made the wrong choice, there are probably a variety of reasons why. Maybe one really wanted whatever it was, another maybe just to see what would happen, and even another who was looking for the attention the wrong-doing would bring. Working through the decision brings into play all those "emotional, mental, and spiritual" intellects within the individual. Generally without any acknowledgement that the final decision is based on a combination of all of those things.

Because of my belief, as I explained above, Adnoid's words hit home for me. Being older now and having some capacity for exploring my own emotional, mental and spiritual framework, I should no longer disengage from a conversation just because it "doesn't jive" with me. I should be able to step back, explore what "doesn't jive," ask myself why and then respond with a positive, intellegent, rebuttal (or agreement) as the case warrants. I think this exploration of our inner intellect is how we truly learn and our capacity for tolerance grows.

I do agree with your outlook on religion. I believe in a higher power and in goodness, kindness and love for humanity without following any "traditional" or structured worship pattern and that the bible is a guide for learning and growing.

Salem