Woman dies after being denied transport on 3 airlines

[OneLove]

Your argument does not reflect the link above. It says that KLM transported the couple to Europe and asked them about their plans for return travel. So KLM had seen the woman and had knowledge of her situation.

And how long had it been since her previous flight getting TO Europe? And was the airline aware that she required dialysis for the duration of her stay in Europe? Were they informed when she deplaned in Europe that she would refuse dialysis and medical care for her health conditions? For that matter, since your supposition is that, since they GOT her there, they were accountable and responsible for getting her home too, were they informed before she left the USA that she would be refusing needed medical treatment while in Europe and would therefore be too large to fit within a seat with a seatbelt buckled for the return trip? And that her body would be so toxic from lack of dialysis that she would be NEAR DEATH when boarding the plane for her return trip?

If they knew NONE of these vital factors, how can they be held responsible for HER decisions?

And, finally, what would you have had the airline do to insure her safety on board AND the safety of the entire crew and all the passengers? Keep in mind, whatever your nifty solution is, it would have to be done quickly to insure takeoff on time.

 

[krkrjx]

I think that since the airline got her there, they should have been able to get her home.

But it is true that sometimes a decision made in one airport may not be the same decision made in another airport. My adult daughter was in a wheelchair, had serious breathing issues and a feeding tube. I often have to take her out of state to see specialists that are not available here. The first time we went, we flew. We left our home town without incident and the airline was extremely accommodating. Landed at O'Hare, went to our appointment, then back to O'Hare for our return flight. And there is where we ran into many difficulties. We did eventually board a flight home, but since then I have driven many, many miles to get her to her appointments. It's a hassle but not as much as trying to fly when you have specific needs that might not easily be met.

I do not see how the airline in this situation can be held accountable. This woman had health issues of longstanding, and those issues caused her death.

 

[OneLove]

Actually, under U.S. law, the airline is responsible for accommodating passengers with disabilities. European law is still evolving, but has similar requirements. (In this case, I don't know whether U.S. law or European Union law would prevail.)


http://www.disabilitytravel.com/airlines/air_carrier_act_details.htm


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...fusals-european-commission-warns-7851102.html

I don't believe "near death" is considered a disability as such covered under US law, or any other country's law, for that matter.

Especially near death from lack of needed medical care.

Even more so for near death due to lack of needed medical care that the airline cannot provide during the duration of a long overseas flight. :crazy:

 

[Nova]

And how long had it been since her previous flight getting TO Europe? And was the airline aware that she required dialysis for the duration of her stay in Europe? Were they informed when she deplaned in Europe that she would refuse dialysis and medical care for her health conditions? For that matter, since your supposition is that, since they GOT her there, they were accountable and responsible for getting her home too, were they informed before she left the USA that she would be refusing needed medical treatment while in Europe and would therefore be too large to fit within a seat with a seatbelt buckled for the return trip? And that her body would be so toxic from lack of dialysis that she would be NEAR DEATH when boarding the plane for her return trip?

If they knew NONE of these vital factors, how can they be held responsible for HER decisions?

And, finally, what would you have had the airline do to insure her safety on board AND the safety of the entire crew and all the passengers? Keep in mind, whatever your nifty solution is, it would have to be done quickly to insure takeoff on time.

I don't think the sarcasm is necessary, but you raise many good questions and I have no doubt some or all will be raised if the case ever gets to trial. (As I said above, I don't think KLM will let it get that far. The bad publicity won't be worth it.)

We don't know whether the woman was told to report to the Amsterdam airport early to accommodate the extra preparation time you mention. She may well have been and she may have arrived as required. There's nothing to suggest that her arrival time at the airport was a factor in her being denied a seat on the flight.

But why is the dead woman the only one with any responsibility here? Did KLM TELL her she would be denied passage if she put on X inches of water weight? After all, surely KLM is a better judge of its seat-belt extenders than a diabetic American-Hungarian woman!

 

[Nova]

I don't believe "near death" is considered a disability as such covered under US law, or any other country's law, for that matter.

Especially near death from lack of needed medical care.

Even more so for near death due to lack of needed medical care that the airline cannot provide during the duration of a long overseas flight. :crazy:

"I don't believe" you are a lawyer. Neither am I, but, no, "near death" is not the disability in question.

And if there is a trial (I still don't think it will happen), one issue may be the woman's overall health. But the counter-argument will be that the strain of driving all over Central Europe contributed to her demise.

 

[Nova]

I think that since the airline got her there, they should have been able to get her home.

But it is true that sometimes a decision made in one airport may not be the same decision made in another airport. My adult daughter was in a wheelchair, had serious breathing issues and a feeding tube. I often have to take her out of state to see specialists that are not available here. The first time we went, we flew. We left our home town without incident and the airline was extremely accommodating. Landed at O'Hare, went to our appointment, then back to O'Hare for our return flight. And there is where we ran into many difficulties. We did eventually board a flight home, but since then I have driven many, many miles to get her to her appointments. It's a hassle but not as much as trying to fly when you have specific needs that might not easily be met.

I do not see how the airline in this situation can be held accountable. This woman had health issues of longstanding, and those issues caused her death.

I'm sure you know this better than I, but in trying to respond to OneLove's posts, I found several sites that say the law is on your daughter's side in this regard. You may need to notify the airline in advance, but I believe U.S. carriers (and European ones) HAVE to accommodate her needs.

 

[Donjeta]

Did the family tell the airline that she was likely to put on X inches of waterweight during her stay when they booked the flights? I would not necessarily expect airline staff to know such a thing. They are the experts on their seatbelt extenders but surely the patient [and the medical personnel who okayed her vacation, *if* they did] can be expected to be more aware of whichever complications she is likely to develop due to her holiday from the treatments.

"I don't believe" you are a lawyer. Neither am I, but, no, "near death" is not the disability in question.

And if there is a trial (I still don't think it will happen), one issue may be the woman's overall health. But the counter-argument will be that the strain of driving all over Central Europe contributed to her demise.

The strain of an overseas flight might have been too much as well.

Do airlines have the right to ask the patient for a recent medical certificate that it's okay to fly? I was given one by my doctor when I flew during pregnancy and he said it was necessary because I was so far along but no one ever asked to see it.

Personally I think if there was any negligence it was that nobody told her that she needed to see a doctor before flying home. Well, maybe somebody did, I don't know. But she was clearly very ill and the long flight might have been too much of a strain for an already overworked heart.

 

[Nova]

Did the family tell the airline that she was likely to put on X inches of waterweight during her stay when they booked the flights? I would not necessarily expect airline staff to know such a thing. They are the experts on their seatbelt extenders but surely the patient [and the medical personnel who okayed her vacation, *if* they did] can be expected to be more aware of whichever complications she is likely to develop due to her holiday from the treatments.


The strain of an overseas flight might have been too much as well.

Do airlines have the right to ask the patient for a recent medical certificate that it's okay to fly? I was given one by my doctor when I flew during pregnancy and he said it was necessary because I was so far along but no one ever asked to see it.

We have no evidence that air travel was a threat to her health, so I don't know why we are still discussing it. That wasn't the reason she was denied passage nor was it what killed her.

As for the woman gaining water weight, who would better know the capacity of the seatbelt extenders, an individual or the airline? If the airline knew its limitations, then the airline had a responsibility to make that clear to the passenger. (And maybe it did. There's been no discovery in the case.)

I'm not a lawyer but I assume there must be circumstances (symptoms of infectious diseases, for example) where an airline can require notice from a doctor that a passenger is able to fly. (But again that was not the issue here.)

 

[Donjeta]

We have no evidence that air travel was a threat to her health, so I don't know why we are still discussing it.

JMO and MOO but of course it was. Since she had retained so much extra fluid her heart was working overtime as ít was and any extra exertion might have proven too much to take.

Particularly if someone is going to argue that the stress of driving between airports contributed to her death, by the same token flying could have contributed to her death, although missing treatments appears to me to be what ultimately killed her.

 

[Elley Mae]

She was extremely obese, only had one leg and other health issues. Frankly I am not so sure someone in her condition should have traveled out of the country to begin with.

Thank You

 

[OneLove]

I don't think the sarcasm is necessary, but you raise many good questions and I have no doubt some or all will be raised if the case ever gets to trial. (As I said above, I don't think KLM will let it get that far. The bad publicity won't be worth it.)

We don't know whether the woman was told to report to the Amsterdam airport early to accommodate the extra preparation time you mention. She may well have been and she may have arrived as required. There's nothing to suggest that her arrival time at the airport was a factor in her being denied a seat on the flight.

But why is the dead woman the only one with any responsibility here? Did KLM TELL her she would be denied passage if she put on X inches of water weight? After all, surely KLM is a better judge of its seat-belt extenders than a diabetic American-Hungarian woman!

It, indeed should be a very interesting case to follow. Although I am not an attorney, my father-in-law taught law for many years and I have several close family members and good friends that are attorneys. We have many lively conversations about situations such as these. And I am not a stranger to the legal system myself, having worked in juvenile justice and served as court-appointed representative for youthful offenders. But most of my understanding that I bring to THIS case comes from my good friend and former roommate who served as the Director of the Disabilities Coalition and was very prominent in passage of the disabilities laws of the 90s. She made televised national news back then 'sparring' with President Clinton over disability issues. One program filmed her talking on the phone with Clinton, who was in New Hampshire at the time with cameras in his face while she was on the phone in his own office back home. And yes, she is an AMAZING attorney and disability activist par none! So, no, I'm not a babe in the woods on this issue.

On the suggestion that the airline should have told the passenger in advance that she would be denied passage if she put on "x inches of water weight", all I can say is "seriously?" Should they also cover every other medical situation that could possibly occur to prevent her from safely flying, or JUST water weight in particular?

 

[OneLove]

We have no evidence that air travel was a threat to her health, so I don't know why we are still discussing it. That wasn't the reason she was denied passage nor was it what killed her.

As for the woman gaining water weight, who would better know the capacity of the seatbelt extenders, an individual or the airline? If the airline knew its limitations, then the airline had a responsibility to make that clear to the passenger. (And maybe it did. There's been no discovery in the case.)

I'm not a lawyer but I assume there must be circumstances (symptoms of infectious diseases, for example) where an airline can require notice from a doctor that a passenger is able to fly. (But again that was not the issue here.)

We have no evidence that the terms of her denial were not already written into "terms and conditions" of her flight reservation, so I don't know why we are still discussing it.

No, wait......that sounded terribly rude, didn't it? Never mind. :what:

 

[angelmom]

THREE different airlines sold this woman a ticket and told her they could fly her back to the States (including KLM, which got her to Europe in the first place). THREE different airlines changed their minds after the woman was already on one of their planes.

In the meantime, the woman and her husband drove all over Central Europe.

I'm all for personal responsibility and, yes, I think the couple should have stayed at home in the U.S. But the passenger and her husband had no way of telepathically analyzing the wheelchair capacity at the Prague Airport. They HAD to rely on airline officials and those officials share some of the responsibility.

See, I read this the complete opposite way. The fact that they tried three separate times to get her on the plane and secure indicates to me that they made every effort to get her home. It wasn't just some gate agent taking a look and saying, "We can't help you."

From the OP:

When they boarded, they were forced to disembark by the captain, Ostrov-Ronai said, because Vilma was unable to fasten her seatbelt properly.

The airline said it worked with local partners, the fire brigade and technical experts to accommodate Soltesz, but to no avail.


"After several time-consuming attempts it was decided that for the safety of this passenger and the over 140 fellow passengers, Lufthansa had to deny transportation of the passenger," said a statement issued by the airline.

I mean, if they tried but couldn't make the trip safe for her, then I don't know how they could have flown her.

ITA with the above posters who say she shouldn't have been traveling without considering the possibility of needing medical care in Hungary.

I would be curious to know if she even told her doctors she would be traveling internationally and what they advised her.

 

[OneLove]

See, I read this the complete opposite way. The fact that they tried three separate times to get her on the plane and secure indicates to me that they made every effort to get her home. It wasn't just some gate agent taking a look and saying, "We can't help you."

From the OP:



I mean, if they tried but couldn't make the trip safe for her, then I don't know how they could have flown her.

ITA with the above posters who say she shouldn't have been traveling without considering the possibility of needing medical care in Hungary.

I would be curious to know if she even told her doctors she would be traveling internationally and what they advised her.

Yes, I totally agree. And I can't help but be curious about her husband's position in all this. Was she so ill by departure time that she lacked the capacity to make a sound decision on her own behalf? Was she possibly denied medical care by those closest to her that should have seen to her needs more diligently? If this had happened WITHIN the USA, would he face charges of neglect? What was her mental state and ability to reason while refusing medical care, or did she ever even actually directly refuse medical care herself? Lots of questions; interesting case.

 

[Karmady]

Actually, under U.S. law, the airline is responsible for accommodating passengers with disabilities. European law is still evolving, but has similar requirements. (In this case, I don't know whether U.S. law or European Union law would prevail.)


http://www.disabilitytravel.com/airlines/air_carrier_act_details.htm


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...fusals-european-commission-warns-7851102.html

I said there's no way they SHOULD have to accomodate her. But, even though there is such a law, it doesn't have limitless boundaries. A commercial flight doesn't have to accomodate anyone when it's physically impossible to do so or poses a health or safety risk to the person or any of the other passengers.

 

[krkrjx]

I'm sure you know this better than I, but in trying to respond to OneLove's posts, I found several sites that say the law is on your daughter's side in this regard. You may need to notify the airline in advance, but I believe U.S. carriers (and European ones) HAVE to accommodate her needs.

Yes, an airline does have to make accommodations for passengers with special needs. But I believe that is only a "reasonable" accommodation, and in the case of this woman, it appears as though they did try. IMO, a person with such serious health issues who chooses to fly overseas bears the responsibility of seeing that they can do it, not just from their own health perspective but with consideration for what will be required of the airline to enable them to board a flight. If this were an issue of her size only, I would say the airline failed to provide for her needs. But this goes beyond just the accommodation of the woman's size.

My daughter is not obese all we needed was a wheelchair accomodation, very easy for the airline to provide and they did so. Her issue is that after her accident it took numerous surgeries to put her back together. Our flight was not too long after 9/11, at a time when citizens practically had to go through a strip search to board at a major airport such as O'Hare, so you can imagine what a scene it was for one with a body full of metal plates and screws. As I said, there were no such issues boarding at our tiny hometown airport when we left; it was coming home that was the problem. And I cannot fault the airport personnel for my failure to do my homework in advance.

So I can understand how this woman was able to board a plane to get to her destination but ran into problems trying to board to go home. I think the law says "reasonable" accommodation is required; it sounds like the airline extended more than a reasonable effort to provide that.

 

[Donjeta]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...awsuit-airlines-late-wife-deemed-fat-fly.html

Widower settles $6million lawsuit with airlines after his late wife was deemed 'too fat to fly'
Vilma Soltesz, who was 407lb, died in Hungary in 2012 after being barred from three flights with Delta, KLM and Lufthansa
Her husband Janos Soltesz, 57, settled his wrongful death suit last month for an undisclosed amount


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-late-wife-deemed-fat-fly.html#ixzz3CkzL1nFx
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