Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California, #3

[Zinn]

First responders don't determine time of death. That's the ME's job and he also states that Adam cut her down, partially removed the gag in order to perform CPR. Rigor can set in after two hours or maybe faster for all I know. The fact is, it was detected in her jaw by firefighters, not the first responders who were the P.D.

It is unknown when exactly RZ hanged herself and died so it makes sense to list it as unknown.

JMO

Glad to know we can at least agree on the fact that the time of the incident is unknown and that the date was left blank to reflect that the incident might have occurred on the evening on 7/12/11 or the morning of 7/13/11.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[MyBelle]

Glad to know we can at least agree on the fact that the time of the incident is unknown and that the date was left blank to reflect that the incident might have occurred on the evening on 7/12/11 or the morning of 7/13/11.

All of the above is just my opinion.

No, I don't agree that any part of the hanging incident occurred the evening of 07/12/11. There is no evidence to support that it did. No defensive wounds or signs of a struggle either in the room or balcony. She died by hanging and I think rigor would have been more extensive if she had been hanging straight down eight hours. In the photos taken by the media, her knees are clearly bent.

Of course she could have started her bizarre ritual in the late hours of 7/12/11, I do agree with that part but think it is irrelevant as far as the wrongful death lawsuit goes.

JMO

 

[Zinn]

No, I don't agree that any part of the hanging incident occurred the evening of 07/12/11. There is no evidence to support that it did. No defensive wounds or signs of a struggle either in the room or balcony. She died by hanging and I think rigor would have been more extensive if she had been hanging straight down eight hours. In the photos taken by the media, her knees are clearly bent.

Of course she could have started her bizarre ritual in the late hours of 7/12/11, I do agree with that part but think it is irrelevant as far as the wrongful death lawsuit goes.

JMO

So you think the date of the incident is left blank because the incident may have been initiated on the night of 7/12/11, even if the actual fall from the balcony did not occur until the morning of 7/13/11? I'm trying to understand your position. I think we are in agreement on this one element (range of time related to incident), so I'm not sure why you objected to my characterization. I think we are in agreement that the overall incident occurred sometime after 21:50 on the evening of 7/12/11, and that the fall from the balcony occurred at least a few hours prior to the arrival of EMS, given the signs of rigor mortis evident upon arrival of EMS. I did not state any opinion as to exactly when the fall from the balcony occurred.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[MyBelle]

So you think the date of the incident is left blank because the incident may have been initiated on the night of 7/12/11, even if the actual fall from the balcony did not occur until the morning of 7/13/11? I'm trying to understand your position. I think we are in agreement on this one element (range of time related to incident), so I'm not sure why you objected to my characterization. I think we are in agreement that the overall incident occurred sometime after 21:50 on the evening of 7/12/11, and that the fall from the balcony occurred at least a few hours prior to the arrival of EMS, given the signs of rigor mortis evident upon arrival of EMS. I did not state any opinion as to exactly when the fall from the balcony occurred.

All of the above is just my opinion.

What are you calling the "overall incident?" I think the ME investigative report makes it clear about that the writings in black, activity in the bedroom took place before she hanged herself.

But the exact date and exact time she flung herself with the noose around her neck is unknown and that is the incident the ME was saying is unknown.

And I can not agree that RZ had been hanging from the balcony since the night before. I don't believe science or evidence supports that theory at all.

JMO

 

[Zinn]

What are you calling the "overall incident?" I think the ME investigative report makes it clear about that the writings in black, activity in the bedroom took place before she hanged herself.

But the exact date and exact time she flung herself with the noose around her neck is unknown and that is the incident the ME was saying is unknown.

And I can not agree that RZ had been hanging from the balcony since the night before. I don't believe science or evidence supports that theory at all.

JMO

Still not sure, but I think we must be disagreeing on why the report left the date (the day, to be more specific) of the incident blank and referred to the day as "unknown." My guess is that they were unable to pinpoint whether the incident occurred on 7/12/11 or 7/13/11. I don't know if the message was painted on the door before or after Rebecca's death, but I didn't previously state an opinion on that, so that is not a point of disagreement between us.

Again, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the issue of why the incident date was left blank and whether the time of death noted reflected the exact time of death as witnessed by AS and relayed to 911 at 6:48am, or whether 6:48 was used as that is when AS initiated the call to 911.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[MyBelle]

Still not sure, but I think we must be disagreeing on why the report left the date (the day, to be more specific) of the incident blank and referred to the day as "unknown." My guess is that they were unable to pinpoint whether the incident occurred on 7/12/11 or 7/13/11. I don't know if the message was painted on the door before or after Rebecca's death, but I didn't previously state an opinion on that, so that is not a point of disagreement between us.

Again, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the issue of why the incident date was left blank and whether the time of death noted reflected the exact time of death as witnessed by AS and relayed to 911 at 6:48am, or whether 6:48 was used as that is when AS initiated the call to 911.

All of the above is just my opinion.

I think the court and I have a different definition of "incident" than you seem to have.

But nowhere on the ME's report does it state that AS "witnessed the time of death." He called 911 and the Coronado P.D performed CPR until the FD ended it at 6:53.

The time of death is clearly noted as 6:48 but the ME does not give an explanation as to why he chose that time. I really believe TOD is all the Judge in a wrongful death lawsuit cares about not the bizarre sequence of events the deceased chose to take in order to get there.

JMO

 

[Zinn]

I think the court and I have a different definition of "incident" than you seem to have.

But nowhere on the ME's report does it state that AS "witnessed the time of death." He called 911 and the Coronado P.D performed CPR until the FD ended it at 6:53.

The time of death is clearly noted as 6:48 but the ME does not give an explanation as to why he chose that time. I really believe TOD is all the Judge in a wrongful death lawsuit cares about not the bizarre sequence of events the deceased chose to take in order to get there.

JMO

AS called 911 at 6:48am. It seemed to me you were arguing that 6:48am is listed as TOD because it reflects the actual time of death. Therefore, the TOD, as defined by you, was witnessed by AS at the time he called 911. I'm in disagreement with that assumption.

The date of the incident, on the other hand, was described as "unknown" and separate from the TOD.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[MyBelle]

AS called 911 at 6:48am. It seemed to me you were arguing that 6:48am is listed as TOD because it reflects the actual time of death. Therefore, the TOD, as defined by you, was witnessed by AS at the time he called 911. I'm in disagreement with that assumption.

The date of the incident, on the other hand, was described as "unknown" and separate from the TOD.

All of the above is just my opinion.

Time of Death is just that. The ME decided the time, not Adam. The ME wasn't there and didn't witness it yet he also didn't list it as an estimated or approximate time. So 6:48 it is, legally and absolutely. It is the law.

I'm not about to argue the ME is wrong because there is no evidence whatsoever that the TOD is wrong.

It is perfectly acceptable to list as unknown as to onset of events:

JMO

If the time of onset is entirely unknown, state that the interval is ‘‘unknown.’’ Do not leave these items blank.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

 

[Zinn]

Time of Death is just that. The ME decided the time, not Adam. The ME wasn't there and didn't witness it yet he also didn't list it as an estimated or approximate time. So 6:48 it is, legally and absolutely. It is the law.

I'm not about to argue the ME is wrong because there is no evidence whatsoever that the TOD is wrong.

It is perfectly acceptable to list as unknown as to onset of events:

JMO

If the time of onset is entirely unknown, state that the interval is ‘‘unknown.’’ Do not leave these items blank.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

Yes. I suspect the incident date (day, more specifically) was described as "unknown" because the time of onset could not be determined, falling sometime between late evening on 7/12/11 and early morning on 7/13/11. We've found common ground there, I think.

As for the ME retroactively pinpointing the time of death as the exact time AS called 911, I'm more skeptical due to the reports of rigor mortis being observed around that same time. But we can agree to disagree on that.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[MyBelle]

Yes. I suspect the incident date (day, more specifically) was described as "unknown" because the time of onset could not be determined, falling sometime between late evening on 7/12/11 and early morning on 7/13/11. We've found common ground there, I think.

As for the ME retroactively pinpointing the time of death as the exact time AS called 911, I'm more skeptical due to the reports of rigor mortis being observed around that same time. But we can agree to disagree on that.

All of the above is just my opinion.

Zinn, I think you are misunderstanding the incident section of the ME's report and the purpose of it. The location of the incident is clearly listed as the Home (courtyard.) The time of the onset of the incident is unknown and is listed as such. The time of the onset of the incident doesn't matter because the death was ruled a suicide.

There is no way RZ was in that courtyard for 8 or nine hours. Science doesn't support that theory at all.

The ME's time of death is now a legal document with the State of Cali. Any of us can disagree all we like but it is still the TOD in the eyes of the judicial system.

JMO

 

[Zinn]

Zinn, I think you are misunderstanding the incident section of the ME's report and the purpose of it. The location of the incident is clearly listed as the Home (courtyard.) The time of the onset of the incident is unknown and is listed as such. The time of the onset of the incident doesn't matter because the death was ruled a suicide.

There is no way RZ was in that courtyard for 8 or nine hours. Science doesn't support that theory at all.

The ME's time of death is now a legal document with the State of Cali. Any of us can disagree all we like but it is still the TOD in the eyes of the judicial system.

JMO

If the judicial system sees the time of death as 6:48am, the time of AS's 911 call, I assume they also see the date of incident onset as "unknown" as written in the same document. As for the science around how TOD relates to the incident onset, if they are willing to ignore the presence of rigor mortis a few minutes after supposed TOD, I'm not sure I'd trust their instincts as to how long Rebecca could have been in the courtyard.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[MyBelle]

If the judicial system sees the time of death as 6:48am, the time of AS's 911 call, I assume they also see the date of incident onset as "unknown" as written in the same document. As for the science around how TOD relates to the incident onset, if they are willing to ignore the presence of rigor mortis a few minutes after supposed TOD, I'm not sure I'd trust their instincts as to how long Rebecca could have been in the courtyard.

All of the above is just my opinion.

I think the above is based on your uninformed opinion. Nobody has ignored anything. Rigor mortis is not definitive because it is an estimate and it can set in in as little as one hour.

You may not trust their instincts but nonetheless, they are the professionals and you and I are not.

JMO

 

[screecher]

Hey Jessica2012! Haven't seen you in forever!

What's shaking?

 

[Jessica2012]

Hi screecher how are you? I hope all is well
I have not posted in a while but I still read on here

 

[*Lash*]

Are you suggesting the fact that AS's stated he performed CPR is proof that Rebecca was alive at the time he reportedly performed CPR, even though signs of rigor mortis were noted by first responders moments later?

Also, can someone remind me of the date on which NR cancelled her scheduled lie detector test due to the death of MS?

All of the above is just my opinion.

Hi Zinn :wave:

Nina Romano's interview. Section below includes her comments about the LTD.

CROSSTALK: Ok, very good. And did they say that they were going to give you a LDT or anything because I know they were going to give Adam one?

NINA: Right, Ok, Right. So they had asked me about that and I was supposed to do it the day- I was supposed to do it, I don't remember my dates here it was like 800, it was scheduled I had agreed it was actually scheduled for like 800 in the morning and I believe it was on Friday, that Friday I believe it was scheduled for. Well my nephew had-had, even though it says his actual, it reports his official time of death, was Saturday at like 1130 in the morning, he actually passed that Friday at 600am in the morning. And I knew he, I knew, it sounds,and people probably think its crazy but I knew and I looked at my nephew and I knew he was gone and I just I knew he was gone. And so they had to-one doctor came in later that day and they had to get two doctors in the state of CA to confirm that he was brain dead um so like the second doctor came in on Saturday. So I called the SD that morning and I just said "I am emotionally there is like no way that I can do this, there is absolutely no way that I can do this my nephew I mean it was just I was emotionally I was a wreck I was an absolute wreck and I said there's no way I can do this I have been up for I do not know how many hours at that point and so I said I can't there's no way that it was going to be emotionally possible for me to do that, um

CROSSTALK: And then did they ever ask you to do it later or how did that happen or what became of that?

NINA: Um nothing, I left, I left a message for the female, the female
agent on her on her voicemail- wait I'm sorry I take that back I might
have sent her a text message. I'm sorry I can't remem-that day, that
day was like so, I get flustered just thinking about it it was the
worst day, the worst day of my life. And I informed her that I couldn't
do it and I know she did she did leave me a voicemail with her
condolences and if she felt it was necessary then they would contact me
back in terms of doing it but it was never necessary, so I never was
requested again to do it.

 

[*Lash*]

FWIW - TOD was definitely not at 6:48am or mere minutes before AS allegedly found Rebecca. A reporter at the 9/2/11 press conference asked ME Lucas about TOD.

LUCAS-
All we can do is give an estimation. Based on everything available I'd say best guess would be before three o'clock in the morning. It could be a little bit after that but I'd say she'd been dead for probably a few hours or so before she was found.

 

[screecher]

Thanks *Lash*!

I remember at one time we were talking about the gloves. IIRC, they were black? I remember thinking wth? Hospitals and/or EMS individuals with black gloves? Well found my answer.

When David Sweat, one of the escaped killers was shot, media was there and took photos. The local rescue squad workers were wearing black gloves. Bettcha Dina did steal them from Rady. Wish I knew how to put the pics on here.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Let's not forget that early news reports - later redacted - placed those 'other children' at the scene of Max's accident. The smoke from that fire simply won't go away. Again, lots of threads to go back and read.:waitasec:

The were no news reports that said Jonah's other children were there. It was simply reported that Rebecca was there with a teenage girl, and posters jumped to the conclusion that is was Jonah's daughter because they didn't know that Rebecca had a "sister". Once it became clear that it was XZ, those posters could not admit they were wrong.

There is no article that states Jonah's other children were there. Please link that article if you can prove me wrong.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Thank you for pointing this out. This is just one indication of the sloppy investigation IMO. IIRC the autopsy report was changed and then dated the day before the press conference was held by SDSO. Lots of questionable antics by SDSO.

Can't wait to see the deposition and/or trial testimony of Angela Tsuida - the detective who initially was assigned to the case and then presumably reassigned. I would imagine that under oath she must disclose any confirmation bias that took place within the department to force a suicide ruling.

Detective Tsuida was not reassigned from the case and worked it until its conclusion.

IMO, there will be no trial because the Zahaus have no case, but if there were and Detective Tsuida were to testify, I'm sure she would read her investigative report which ends with "All indications are that there was no foul play".

pg. 269 from Ann Rule's Two Strange Deaths in Coronado.

 

[Betty P]

No, I don't agree that any part of the hanging incident occurred the evening of 07/12/11. There is no evidence to support that it did. No defensive wounds or signs of a struggle either in the room or balcony. She died by hanging and I think rigor would have been more extensive if she had been hanging straight down eight hours. In the photos taken by the media, her knees are clearly bent.

Of course she could have started her bizarre ritual in the late hours of 7/12/11, I do agree with that part but think it is irrelevant as far as the wrongful death lawsuit goes.

JMO

Actually, the fact that RZ's poor body was in rigor mortis, with knees bent, indicates she wasn't simply hanging straight from the balcony the entire time. We've discussed this in the past, but a body in rigor mortis with bent knees would have been in that posture for several hours. That means RZ was either hung in a "hog-tied" position from the balcony, or she had lain on the grass with knees bent for several hours. Since Adam was the reporting witness, and since he had already cut her down before EMS arrived, no one really knows what position she was in.