Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California, #3

[LuckyLucy2]

BRBM

"LUCKY" & "LUCY" :jawdrop: time for some :toastred:

Holy Moley. Excellent post!

BTW, pretty sure LUCKY was convicted of over 60 counts of prostitution and guess where he did most of his time??? That's right fellow posters...Clinton Correctional Facility :lol: Oh, and Sweat has been shot and captured.

Ha! No, I'm not that Luciano guy, nor have I ever heard of him. Nice find, but why are you tryng to sleuth me???

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Thanks *Lash*!

I remember at one time we were talking about the gloves. IIRC, they were black? I remember thinking wth? Hospitals and/or EMS individuals with black gloves? Well found my answer.

When David Sweat, one of the escaped killers was shot, media was there and took photos. The local rescue squad workers were wearing black gloves. Bettcha Dina did steal them from Rady. Wish I knew how to put the pics on here.

You think that Dina stole gloves from Rady's and gave them to David Sweat's rescue squad?

Now I've heard everything. :facepalm:

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Actually, the fact that RZ's poor body was in rigor mortis, with knees bent, indicates she wasn't simply hanging straight from the balcony the entire time. We've discussed this in the past, but a body in rigor mortis with bent knees would have been in that posture for several hours. That means RZ was either hung in a "hog-tied" position from the balcony, or she had lain on the grass with knees bent for several hours. Since Adam was the reporting witness, and since he had already cut her down before EMS arrived, no one really knows what position she was in.

The Medical Examiner that examined Rebecca's body disagrees with you, as do I.

 

[AZlawyer]

Zinn, I think you are misunderstanding the incident section of the ME's report and the purpose of it. The location of the incident is clearly listed as the Home (courtyard.) The time of the onset of the incident is unknown and is listed as such. The time of the onset of the incident doesn't matter because the death was ruled a suicide.

There is no way RZ was in that courtyard for 8 or nine hours. Science doesn't support that theory at all.

The ME's time of death is now a legal document with the State of Cali. Any of us can disagree all we like but it is still the TOD in the eyes of the judicial system.

JMO

BBM

The courts will not care at all about the ME report. It is not even admissible as evidence. The suicide conclusion is inadmissible, the time of death is inadmissible.

Disclaimer: As many of you know, I'm not on anyone's side here. I am frankly surprised that the Zs' lawsuit has not been dismissed yet for lack of a sufficient basis for suspicion of murder against any one of the defendants. On the other hand, I think the suicide theory is pretty shaky. So I'm just waiting to see if the truth comes out.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

The courts will not care at all about the ME report. It is not even admissible as evidence. The suicide conclusion is inadmissible, the time of death is inadmissible.

Disclaimer: As many of you know, I'm not on anyone's side here. I am frankly surprised that the Zs' lawsuit has not been dismissed yet for lack of a sufficient basis for suspicion of murder against any one of the defendants. On the other hand, I think the suicide theory is pretty shaky. So I'm just waiting to see if the truth comes out.

RZ's ME's report has been filed with the court. My father's ME report was admissible as evidence in a wrongful death lawsuit I brought on behalf of his estate. I can only go by my personal experience. Thanks.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

AZLawyer, if that is the case, why have the Zahaus' included it as evidence in their SAC?

 

[MyBelle]

Actually, the fact that RZ's poor body was in rigor mortis, with knees bent, indicates she wasn't simply hanging straight from the balcony the entire time. We've discussed this in the past, but a body in rigor mortis with bent knees would have been in that posture for several hours. That means RZ was either hung in a "hog-tied" position from the balcony, or she had lain on the grass with knees bent for several hours. Since Adam was the reporting witness, and since he had already cut her down before EMS arrived, no one really knows what position she was in.

I believe RZ's body was cut down and placed in the grass with her knees bent. Rigor set it while she was on the grass.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

AZLawyer, if that is the case, why have the Zahaus' included it as evidence in their SAC?

Good question.

JMO

 

[LuckyLucy2]

There is plenty of crystal-clear evidence that Rebecca Zahau committed suicide.

What evidence is there that Adam, Nina, and Dina were in the courtyard and in the bedroom or on the balcony where the hanging happened?

I keep asking that question and getting no answers. From what I gather from all the latest court documents filed, it seems the Zahaus cannot answer that either.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

There is plenty of crystal-clear evidence that Rebecca Zahau committed suicide.

What evidence is there that Adam, Nina, and Dina were in the courtyard and in the bedroom or on the balcony where the hanging happened?

I keep asking that question and getting no answers. From what I gather from all the latest court documents filed, it seems the Zahaus cannot answer that either.

JMO

Evidence is required. I'm glad the defendants asked the court to award attorneys fees and costs.

JMO

 

[justice be served]

There is plenty of crystal-clear evidence that Rebecca Zahau committed suicide.

What evidence is there that Adam, Nina, and Dina were in the courtyard and in the bedroom or on the balcony where the hanging happened?

I keep asking that question and getting no answers. From what I gather from all the latest court documents filed, it seems the Zahaus cannot answer that either.

JMO

Here's your answer. This has been discussed ad infinitum on prior threads as you well know:

From Dr. Phil Interview of P.I. Paul Ciolino:

Paul says that he spoke with neighbors as part of his investigation. He explains that neighbors on both sides of the home describe hearing screams and a woman calling for help on the night of Rebecca’s death. “We have two independent people, who didn’t converse prior to this, who went to authorities and told them what they heard, and it was discounted. These were clues that weren’t followed up on — or ignored.”

“Why would they not follow up on these [leads]?” Dr. Phil asks Paul.

Paul says, “We have a problem with law enforcement in cases like this, and it’s called, ‘confirmation bias.’ What happens is they take facts that make this look like a suicide, and they take the facts that make it look like a homicide, and they ignore them. They are very reluctant to admit they made a mistake.

“If the sheriff wants to do what’s right, he will open this case up again,” Paul continues. “The victimology in this case stinks. None of this makes sense.”

 

[justice be served]

FWIW - TOD was definitely not at 6:48am or mere minutes before AS allegedly found Rebecca. A reporter at the 9/2/11 press conference asked ME Lucas about TOD.

LUCAS-
All we can do is give an estimation. Based on everything available I'd say best guess would be before three o'clock in the morning. It could be a little bit after that but I'd say she'd been dead for probably a few hours or so before she was found.

Thank you, Lash, for Lucas' confirmation that Rebecca indeed was dead before 6:48 in the morning. Talk about beating a dead horse.

This is a very large forum with many, many threads and it is difficult to attempt to reiterate over and over again these same facts. It's too bad it continually needs to be done - so TUVM.

 

[AZlawyer]

RZ's ME's report has been filed with the court. My father's ME report was admissible as evidence in a wrongful death lawsuit I brought on behalf of his estate. I can only go by my personal experience. Thanks.

AZLawyer, if that is the case, why have the Zahaus' included it as evidence in their SAC?

Nothing has been admitted into evidence at this point. However, in the SAC the Zahaus needed to explain (as the judge noted) WHY they believed various things "on information and belief." Hearsay and the expert opinions of a non-witness can't be admitted into evidence at trial (unless of course there is a stipulation to allow it, which I doubt will happen here), but certainly hearsay and the ME's opinion could be reasons to be "informed of and believe" some fact or other.

So there is a distinction between "admissible evidence" and "information I received that made me believe something."

 

[LuckyLucy2]

U

Here's your answer. This has been discussed ad infinitum on prior threads as you well know:

From Dr. Phil Interview of P.I. Paul Ciolino:

Paul says that he spoke with neighbors as part of his investigation. He explains that neighbors on both sides of the home describe hearing screams and a woman calling for help on the night of Rebecca’s death. “We have two independent people, who didn’t converse prior to this, who went to authorities and told them what they heard, and it was discounted. These were clues that weren’t followed up on — or ignored.”

“Why would they not follow up on these [leads]?” Dr. Phil asks Paul.

Paul says, “We have a problem with law enforcement in cases like this, and it’s called, ‘confirmation bias.’ What happens is they take facts that make this look like a suicide, and they take the facts that make it look like a homicide, and they ignore them. They are very reluctant to admit they made a mistake.

“If the sheriff wants to do what’s right, he will open this case up again,” Paul continues. “The victimology in this case stinks. None of this makes sense.”

Sorry, but someone claiming to have heard a scream for help is not evidence that Adam, Dina, or Nina were in the courtyard or in the hanging room.

 

[MyBelle]

Nothing has been admitted into evidence at this point. However, in the SAC the Zahaus needed to explain (as the judge noted) WHY they believed various things "on information and belief." Hearsay and the expert opinions of a non-witness can't be admitted into evidence at trial (unless of course there is a stipulation to allow it, which I doubt will happen here), but certainly hearsay and the ME's opinion could be reasons to be "informed of and believe" some fact or other.

So there is a distinction between "admissible evidence" and "information I received that made me believe something."

I thought the ME report was only inadmissible at a criminal trial because the defense has a right to question the ME. My dad's ME report was submitted prior to trial to get two defendants dismissed as defendants and it worked.

I'm sure the ME would be more than happy to testify if this case ever gets to trial since the family has publicly accused him of being wrong.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

U


Sorry, but someone claiming to have heard a scream for help is not evidence that Adam, Dina, or Nina were in the courtyard or in the hanging room.

Someone who later claims to have heard screams yet didn't bother to call 911 at the time is just seeking attention and isn't credible. Cops wouldn't find such a report credible and neither would a jury.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Thank you, Lash, for Lucas' confirmation that Rebecca indeed was dead before 6:48 in the morning. Talk about beating a dead horse.

This is a very large forum with many, many threads and it is difficult to attempt to reiterate over and over again these same facts. It's too bad it continually needs to be done - so TUVM.

Lucas hasn't changed the TOD has he? NOPE. That issue is indeed dead. I think it will be very difficult for the Plaintiffs to convince a judge she hanged herself the night before but by golly they can sure try. LOL

 

[LuckyLucy2]

You are so right about that, MyBelle. A scream is not evidence of Rebecca Zahau being murdered.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Seems even the Zahaus' are having trouble with the dates.

From Nina's Demurrer that was just filed:

"Yet the Second Amended Complaint remains a confusing jumble of speculative and
fanciful conclusory allegations. Paragraph 16 simply concludes "On or around the early morning of July 13, 2011, Defendants Adam, Dina, and Nina, and each of them, conspired to plan, and did in fact, enter into a common scheme of conduct with the intent to murder Rebecca in Coronado it is further alleged that Rebecca was found dead "on the morning of July 13, 2011. (SAC, p. 6:13,) Yet, Paragraph 20 alleges the purported actions of Dina and Nina occurred "the evening of the murder at approximately 10:20 PM" and reference to an admission by Nina that she was present "at the Spreckels Mansion the evening of murder at approximatelv 10:30p.m." (Id., p. '7:9-12.) These allegations are inconsistent because how could events allegedly occurring on the evening of the day Rebecca's dead body was found led to her death earlier in the morning? lf these confusing allegations were intended to mean early events occurring on July 12, 2011, then plaintiff has failed to plead the claims are timely as based on events occurring on July 12, 2011 versus events occurring on July 13, 2011, notwithstanding issues of equitable tolling. Likewise, even if read as intending to mean alleged acts occurring on the evening of July 12, 2011, plaintiffs fail to plead facts necessary to overcome the facts recited in the Medical Examiner's report.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Also in Nina's latest Demurrer:

The court should deem the Medical Examiner's Investigative Report (RJN, Exh. A) to require plaintiffs to plead specific facts showing an ability to overcome the recitation of facts in the Medical Examiner's report finding Rebecca Zahau s death was a suicide. Under California laws the recitation of facts in the Medical Examiner s report is prima facie evidence ln all courts and places of the facts stated therein. (Health A. Saf. Code II 103550,) Thus, plaintiffs are required to plead such facts as to show how the facts recited in the Medical Examiner's report should not be accorded the presumption of correctness and/or how additional facts surrounding Rebecca Zahau's death raise the allegations of a claimed assault/battery leading to the death of Rebecca Zahau into the realm of being plausible.

Indeed, Paragraph 32 effectively admits there is no evidence of any defendant involvement in the death of Rebecca Zahau. (SAC, p, 10:17-19;Demurrer Dina Shacknai, p. 4:4-22.) Therefore, other than rank speculation guised as allegations on information and belief, plaintiffs have not and cannot overcome the presumption of suicide and facts in the Medical Examiner's report supporting the conclusion Rebecca Zahau's death was by suicide or how the facts recited in the Medical Examiner' s report should not be accorded the presumption of correctness and/or how additional facts surrounding Rebecca Zahau's death raise the allegations of a claimed assault/battery leading to the death of Rebecca Zahau into the realm of being plausible.