WV WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #4

[readingrain]

On what was Marion's role in what happened that night you must remember that she had worked a very long day and was exhausted so not surprising she went right to asleep.

I think it is more likely that Marion knows something, why I already wrote above (the light was on, the moment with the phone), but most importantly because no one asked her about it and she did not try to tell. And because everyone was focused on the insurance agents, the Mafia, Morris, Sodder Sr.'s strange behavior...

Yes, most likely, she did not participate in the kidnapping of children or the arson of the house, in this situation it is very strange... Simple version: she woke up somewhere between 22.30 and 00.30, there were no children, she started looking for them, went upstairs, did not find them, went outside, it was dark and cold, how can she find the children?Then she got scared and felt guilty, so she didn't tell anyone and, of course, she hoped that the children would come back. She left everything as it was, lay down and waited, but the children didn't come. And after what happened, it became even more difficult to tell about everything, but the main thing was that she could know whether there were children in the house or not.

Another version: The children were in the house, but not upstairs, but, let's say, in the basement or some kind of storage room, where Marion locked them as punishment for their noisy behavior. Then it's strange why they didn't ask to be let out and didn't call their mother for help, but it's also strange why they didn't scream when they were upstairs during the fire, five is a lot, someone should have woken up... Maybe because they really did something wrong, or maybe they didn't want to, maybe it was an adventure for them to hide somewhere.

Perhaps it was a game of hide and seek and Marion just wanted to get rid of the children and sleep in this way, and they liked it and they sat somewhere in the dark and waited until the whole house started running and looking for them...but they were not upstairs.
In any case, I think that the fact that the light was on, the curtains weren't drawn, and the door wasn't closed indicates 90% that the children hadn't finished playing (or whatever) and hadn't gone upstairs to sleep. Because they were generally responsible - if their mother left the chickens and cows with them.

 

[ColyH]

80 years ago tonight the Sodder children went missing.

 

[lilylinder]

So some thoughts (I've been reading off and on over the years apologies if I missed anything):
You really break it down to two questions: were the children killed in the fire and was the fire a crime? I kinda feel like most everyone is in agreement something was suspicious about the fire so thats one answer.

Then you got trauma plus 1940s detective work and I think we all know that's pretty much what has muddied the first question. Some were pointing to the belief the eldest sister Marion may have been covering up due to not wanting to speak of it, never seeming to have spoke on the record of that night (as she'd be the last living child to have seen the missing kids). I don't see anything suspicious there and sadly we will likely never know. Everyone seems to be forgetting the trauma, the likely cptsd of this event even if you go with the children died in a tragic accident. CPTSD (I'm blessed to have it) can really mess with memory, it can mess with details etc. She may have not genuinely remembered things or had been confused by what little she did remember.

This also should be thought of with the parents. I read a few theories maybe they did this as a cover, just weird grief things. Grief is also a weird thing but nothing about them seemed disingenuous. Whether they were in denial or correct it almost doesnt matter, they acted on what they believed to be true.

There's some unsolved mysteries I think the parents are truly doing grieving and its coming out weird (that lesbian 20 year old? who went missing on a cruise ship and just had a big hulu doc. Seems very unlikely she is alive but the parents are adamant white slavery, which rarely looks the stereotypical way they think, kinda like the mafia).

I also dont think the mafia or fascists were likely. That community was so small there (all Italians not just any of that stripe) I think it'd be hard to hide.

So then you go back to what couldve happened in the house and must work from there:

*The children were asleep or quickly succumbed to smoke (no signs of struggling children in the windows) and died, burned up.
*The children wander off doing kids things per one person here's theory and either are taken or die in that manner
*The children are asleep or awake and someone comes and lures them out, they live but are gone for life.

Some have theorized if the children went willingly (no one ever claimed to see them go upstairs that night just was assumed) it was someone they knew. I wasn't raised catholic but I have heard from catholics (including my grandfather) you did NOT go against nuns or clergy. The Bobby Greensleeves(?) murder in Kansas City had this happen as a nun unknowingly called the child from catholic school to meet his aunt...who was not his aunt. The kid was 6 and would've known. But he knew better than to question the nun.

I have no knowledge of the parish or what was going on there let alone then. But I highly doubt the kids would have gone willingly with say an Italian community member they knew but knew their father didnt get along with. Why would the catholic clergy do this? Well thats more questions. Maybe there was something shady, maybe they were just used and covered it up. I have no idea (there were several crimes in the catholic church in the us during this time and after, beyond the pedophilia there were rapes and murders. One priest was brought to justice just before he died and I am blanking on the case name. Beautiful Texas woman he raped and murdered, church knew and shuffled him around).

And as for being taken against their will? Kids are not very easy to keep quiet especially after a night of excitement. Some of those kids were very young. Whether awake or woken from sleep I don't think they would have been able to keep them from making enough noise to wake their parents if say a klansman came to the door.

As for dna? No of course evil doers wouldnt have foresight on this but of the rumors some of them involved one daughter being sent to a nunnery (which again...church related?). We'd have to suppose at this point that if the missing kids had children etc they either died before now or whatever descendants have yet to be online. What would be very interesting is if genetic dna tree could be done working back from the surviving descendants and see if anyone could be found. I have no interesting family lineage but my dna spread is so vast on ancestry and so spread out I'd have a heck of a time zoning in on one person if I had to.

I think the real answer to if the kids were taken alive for any reason goes back to WHY arson...and I think most of the guesses so far dont really work there. Do we (and again time and stuff if we dont we may never) know if George had any problems in his business dealings? That one life insurance weirdo seemed to be involved with some business stuff of his but info is scant. Did he anger someone who he never did business with but felt jilted by it? Could this have any links to the local parish? These are the things I think might find some clarity if they can be known.

 

[Cryptic]

I also dont think the mafia or fascists were likely. That community was so small there. I don't think they would have been able to keep them from making enough noise to wake their parents if say a klansman came to the door.

In regards to fascists, I don't think anybody would have cared.

Prior to WW2, there were plenty of Americans, both Wasp and non Wasp, who gave varying degrees of support to fascism, or even nazism. Usually, this support was due to the anti communism and "law and order" of the movements (related, but not the same. For example, fascism was not anti semitic).

Others went further. At the top, Henry Ford's son required Ford dealers to pass out a magazine filled with anti semitic references. Getty, of Standard Oil fame, openly voiced views of Wasp racial / cultural superiority and the dangers of Jewish immigration.

In short, even if Sodder had been relatively pro fascist before the war, my bet the reaction would have been: Yawn, so was my uncle....

As for the KKK.... it was relatively rare in Appalachia. Prior to the civil war, slavery was never popular in mountain areas ("Mountaineers are always free"). Post war enforcement of segregation was often lax. Later mining /industrialization brought in blacks and non Wasp immigrants early on. This does not mean that all Appalachians were fountains of racial and ethnic tolerance, but.... Appalachia is not "the South" in the full sense of the word.

Did he anger someone who he never did business with but felt jilted by it?

I would say that this is the Occams razor solution and the most likely.

For example, Sodder had a lot of gasoline in the home. During the war, black market gasoline sold very well. Shortly afterward, there would still have been rationing or shortages as all the men and gear overseas needed to be brought home using some form of Petro chemical propulsion. Rival vendors in anything black market can get uhmm...."irate".

 

[killarney rose]

I think Occam’s Razor is the most logical answer. The fire was hot, and fast and incinerated the bodies of the sleeping children who were not able to get out in time. The father bulldozed the charred remains of the house into the basement. Forensics and lack of knowledge there of all but insured the bodies or what was left of them would never be recovered.

 

[iamshadow21]

I think Occam’s Razor is the most logical answer. The fire was hot, and fast and incinerated the bodies of the sleeping children who were not able to get out in time. The father bulldozed the charred remains of the house into the basement. Forensics and lack of knowledge there of all but insured the bodies or what was left of them would never be recovered.

Exactly. Fires that burn hot and fiercely consume flesh and calcinate bones, making them incredibly brittle and impossible to distinguish from, say, remains of drywall. An errant boot or falling timber can crush them to powder. Children's bones, being so much smaller reach that stage quickly in a conflagration, and are very easily overlooked or destroyed by even experienced investigators.

I don't think the children ever left or were taken, but died there and were very effectively cremated by the fire.

MOO

 

[meyniemist]

So some thoughts (I've been reading off and on over the years apologies if I missed anything):
You really break it down to two questions: were the children killed in the fire and was the fire a crime? I kinda feel like most everyone is in agreement something was suspicious about the fire so thats one answer.

Then you got trauma plus 1940s detective work and I think we all know that's pretty much what has muddied the first question. Some were pointing to the belief the eldest sister Marion may have been covering up due to not wanting to speak of it, never seeming to have spoke on the record of that night (as she'd be the last living child to have seen the missing kids). I don't see anything suspicious there and sadly we will likely never know. Everyone seems to be forgetting the trauma, the likely cptsd of this event even if you go with the children died in a tragic accident. CPTSD (I'm blessed to have it) can really mess with memory, it can mess with details etc. She may have not genuinely remembered things or had been confused by what little she did remember.

This also should be thought of with the parents. I read a few theories maybe they did this as a cover, just weird grief things. Grief is also a weird thing but nothing about them seemed disingenuous. Whether they were in denial or correct it almost doesnt matter, they acted on what they believed to be true.

There's some unsolved mysteries I think the parents are truly doing grieving and its coming out weird (that lesbian 20 year old? who went missing on a cruise ship and just had a big hulu doc. Seems very unlikely she is alive but the parents are adamant white slavery, which rarely looks the stereotypical way they think, kinda like the mafia).

I also dont think the mafia or fascists were likely. That community was so small there (all Italians not just any of that stripe) I think it'd be hard to hide.

So then you go back to what couldve happened in the house and must work from there:

*The children were asleep or quickly succumbed to smoke (no signs of struggling children in the windows) and died, burned up.
*The children wander off doing kids things per one person here's theory and either are taken or die in that manner
*The children are asleep or awake and someone comes and lures them out, they live but are gone for life.

Some have theorized if the children went willingly (no one ever claimed to see them go upstairs that night just was assumed) it was someone they knew. I wasn't raised catholic but I have heard from catholics (including my grandfather) you did NOT go against nuns or clergy. The Bobby Greensleeves(?) murder in Kansas City had this happen as a nun unknowingly called the child from catholic school to meet his aunt...who was not his aunt. The kid was 6 and would've known. But he knew better than to question the nun.

I have no knowledge of the parish or what was going on there let alone then. But I highly doubt the kids would have gone willingly with say an Italian community member they knew but knew their father didnt get along with. Why would the catholic clergy do this? Well thats more questions. Maybe there was something shady, maybe they were just used and covered it up. I have no idea (there were several crimes in the catholic church in the us during this time and after, beyond the pedophilia there were rapes and murders. One priest was brought to justice just before he died and I am blanking on the case name. Beautiful Texas woman he raped and murdered, church knew and shuffled him around).

And as for being taken against their will? Kids are not very easy to keep quiet especially after a night of excitement. Some of those kids were very young. Whether awake or woken from sleep I don't think they would have been able to keep them from making enough noise to wake their parents if say a klansman came to the door.

As for dna? No of course evil doers wouldnt have foresight on this but of the rumors some of them involved one daughter being sent to a nunnery (which again...church related?). We'd have to suppose at this point that if the missing kids had children etc they either died before now or whatever descendants have yet to be online. What would be very interesting is if genetic dna tree could be done working back from the surviving descendants and see if anyone could be found. I have no interesting family lineage but my dna spread is so vast on ancestry and so spread out I'd have a heck of a time zoning in on one person if I had to.

I think the real answer to if the kids were taken alive for any reason goes back to WHY arson...and I think most of the guesses so far dont really work there. Do we (and again time and stuff if we dont we may never) know if George had any problems in his business dealings? That one life insurance weirdo seemed to be involved with some business stuff of his but info is scant. Did he anger someone who he never did business with but felt jilted by it? Could this have any links to the local parish? These are the things I think might find some clarity if they can be known.

I’ve been reading on and off for a few years too. I recently saw an interview w/ George and Jennie’s great great granddaughter Miranda that had some new info and her own theory.

For DNA, it’s confirmed in the comments section in yt that she did upload (that’s how Miranda was able to prove her relationship to the hosts) and in a facebook comment she said that she hasn’t gotten any hits. She does state that while she didn’t think they died in the fire and weren’t killed shortly after (aside from Maurice), she doesn’t think it’s likely that all of them lived long enough to have families of their own. Later in the video she brings up the trafficking theory which if true, very likely puts the kids in dangerous scenarios where they could’ve met foul play even if they survived for years after the fire. Even the theory of Betty being adopted out and having a normal life (since she was only 5) still leaves 4 sets of potential lines cut and could further reduce the chances of a potential descendant being found, though correct me if I’m wrong on that.

I feel like whether or not the kids died in the fire is highly dependent on whether they were in the house or not. If they were, then I don’t think they made it out. If they weren’t then anything could’ve happened. I’m 50/50 on the 1968 photo being Louis but if not I do think it was sent by someone who knew something. It was mentioned in another interview that Frankie was his nickname for Maurice. For it to resemble Louis and w/ a nickname that sounds a bit like it was an inside joke between the 2 brothers (I say this bc Frankie seems like a strange name to come from Maurice Antonio) makes me think it was very intentional.

The case grows colder and colder as the years go by and I hope that even if only one of the kids survived, there will be a descendant of theirs curious about their genealogy someday. Whatever truly happened, I hope there will be a way to find answers

 

[ColyH]

Exactly. Fires that burn hot and fiercely consume flesh and calcinate bones, making them incredibly brittle and impossible to distinguish from, say, remains of drywall. An errant boot or falling timber can crush them to powder. Children's bones, being so much smaller reach that stage quickly in a conflagration, and are very easily overlooked or destroyed by even experienced investigators.

I don't think the children ever left or were taken, but died there and were very effectively cremated by the fire.

MOO

I believe the reason this is a mystery is because the authorities involved botched the investigation. Another issue is that even though a burnt body gives off a strong scent cold air can lessen the stench.

 

[snooptroop88]

It struck me that the ONLY people missing from the fire scene are the ones who were possibly still awake when the fire started. The parents, youngest daughter, and two oldest boys had gone to bed. The daughter who was still up to watch the other kids stated she fell asleep while they were still playing.

So why is it only the 5 children still awake who vanished? What I'm thinking is it's because they saw or heard something outside, maybe witnessed arsonists setting fire to the house, and they were grabbed and taken from the scene, killed and hidden. The arsonists probably assumed those still asleep would die in the house fire, therefore killing the entire family. Obviously you don't set a house on fire, after bedtime, without intending harm to people sleeping inside. This would not be a warning but murder or attempted murder if you did that.

I can't figure why family members of the Sodder's would have kidnapped the children, because that would put the family members at the scene of the fire to have taken them while the house was burning. So unless family members are the ones who set the fire (which I'm not at all suggesting), why would they even be there? And if they were, wouldn't they have tried to save all the children and the whole family?

The story that the locals believe, that the 5 missing children were murdered and their bodies dumped somewhere, makes the most sense to me. The question would be who had it in for the Sodders and why.

(respectfully bolded)

Maybe this is just a ridiculous notion on my part, but I saw this Jane Doe and was struck by the timing:

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

By bringing people, information, forensic science and technology together, NamUs helps resolve cases.

www.namus.gov

Adult pre-30, found 1972 in Richmond City VA, believed deceased since... 1947 to 1950?? That's pretty unusual. It happens, but not too often, from what I've seen looking through those databases. Nobody found this young woman's remains for over two decades, and there's no real information as to how the remains were discovered, not that I can find, anyway. This woman was 18 to 25yo. Partial skeleton only, just very few details for such an unusual scenario.

Fayetteville WV to Richmond City, VA:

About 260 miles. Nobody took Greyhound with a group of (theoretically) abducted children,, so I'm assuming a vehicle involved, and that would be 10-12 hours of solid driving back then, per sources. Interesting, though, the way the route cuts right through a national forest. But if this woman were 18yo and killed/died in 1950, well, Martha was 12 at the time of the fire, so she theoretically would be very close to 18 in 1950.

I do think the pic that's allegedly of Louis does look a whole heck of a lot like him. I see some saying the ears don't match, etc, it's a hoax. It may well be, but I continue to think it may not be. So I wonder, but do tend to think it's far more likely these poor kids died in the fire. After skimming through the posts on this current thread, though, people have built incredibly strong cases that it could have gone either way. If it was an abduction, tend to agree with those noting the trafficking theory. With that in mind, Richmond seems a very big point on the map and the type of place one might imagine a trafficker in that region would gravitate towards. Also if it was abduction (and trafficker), there were some innovative things going on in aviation in the area, you'd wonder if a private plane might have flown into/out of one of the grassy airstrips they had there nearby. And if it was abduction, those kids were the target, the fire was superfluous to cover the perp's tracks and it occurred after perp/s had secured their targets. The cutting of phone lines, the movement of the ladder-- these would work with this hypothetical.

Anything is possible. But right now, jmo tend more towards the idea of all that gasoline and coal in the basement, with the place collapsing at least partially into the basement as the fire raged, then still with everything smoldering, it was all in a sense sealed over, and nothing could be left, arguably. The young woman found in Richmond-- they give so little information, perhaps those remains were somehow unearthed from a cemetery there. But again, anything really is possible, and I read something I just really thought was "right on" on this case, fairly recent article, and the writer noted, you know, it was almost certainly the fire. However, that writer would not be shocked if something were later revealed to show otherwise. Couldn't agree more with that writer and just hope someday there will be some definitive final answer on this case, although I know it's not likely.

 

[Elley Mae]

The Sodder Children Mystery in Appalachia 80 years later

The Sodder Children Mystery in Appalachia 80 years later

In Appalachia, history often lingers in the landscape itself, clinging to roads, hillsides, and small towns where stories outlast the people who first told them. One of the most enduring mysteries …

appalachianmemories.org

 

[meyniemist]

(respectfully bolded)

Maybe this is just a ridiculous notion on my part, but I saw this Jane Doe and was struck by the timing:

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

By bringing people, information, forensic science and technology together, NamUs helps resolve cases.

www.namus.gov

Adult pre-30, found 1972 in Richmond City VA, believed deceased since... 1947 to 1950?? That's pretty unusual. It happens, but not too often, from what I've seen looking through those databases. Nobody found this young woman's remains for over two decades, and there's no real information as to how the remains were discovered, not that I can find, anyway. This woman was 18 to 25yo. Partial skeleton only, just very few details for such an unusual scenario.

Fayetteville WV to Richmond City, VA:
View attachment 633392
About 260 miles. Nobody took Greyhound with a group of (theoretically) abducted children,, so I'm assuming a vehicle involved, and that would be 10-12 hours of solid driving back then, per sources. Interesting, though, the way the route cuts right through a national forest. But if this woman were 18yo and killed/died in 1950, well, Martha was 12 at the time of the fire, so she theoretically would be very close to 18 in 1950.

I do think the pic that's allegedly of Louis does look a whole heck of a lot like him. I see some saying the ears don't match, etc, it's a hoax. It may well be, but I continue to think it may not be. So I wonder, but do tend to think it's far more likely these poor kids died in the fire. After skimming through the posts on this current thread, though, people have built incredibly strong cases that it could have gone either way. If it was an abduction, tend to agree with those noting the trafficking theory. With that in mind, Richmond seems a very big point on the map and the type of place one might imagine a trafficker in that region would gravitate towards. Also if it was abduction (and trafficker), there were some innovative things going on in aviation in the area, you'd wonder if a private plane might have flown into/out of one of the grassy airstrips they had there nearby. And if it was abduction, those kids were the target, the fire was superfluous to cover the perp's tracks and it occurred after perp/s had secured their targets. The cutting of phone lines, the movement of the ladder-- these would work with this hypothetical.

Anything is possible. But right now, jmo tend more towards the idea of all that gasoline and coal in the basement, with the place collapsing at least partially into the basement as the fire raged, then still with everything smoldering, it was all in a sense sealed over, and nothing could be left, arguably. The young woman found in Richmond-- they give so little information, perhaps those remains were somehow unearthed from a cemetery there. But again, anything really is possible, and I read something I just really thought was "right on" on this case, fairly recent article, and the writer noted, you know, it was almost certainly the fire. However, that writer would not be shocked if something were later revealed to show otherwise. Couldn't agree more with that writer and just hope someday there will be some definitive final answer on this case, although I know it's not likely.

The Jane Doe, I think is still a possibility even if just a small one. There are times when I think there are a lot of Does out there that could be missing children whose cases are known and maybe they were kept in captivity (like Jaycee Dugard) but are looked over bc they weren’t the right age.

Miranda (the great great granddaughter) did another interview for the Voices for Justice podcast recently Voices for Justice

There’s some new information revealed in it (she revealed some of the same in the previous one I linked but there’s stuff she didn’t reveal in that one). George insisted they had no gas or coal in the house and when they excavated the sight 4 years later, they were able to find books, cloth, remains of the family’s bird. There’s also something about the fire marshal not showing up until a few days after the fire? I’m probably not remembering correctly though since I listened to it last night. She even mentions that the way the eldest son at home was questioned and the fact that he just got back from a likely traumatizing experience may have resulted in an inaccurate testimony. It does make me lean more towards them not dying in the fire personally. With that said, I don’t think there’s inherently something fishy w/ the lights still being on and curtains open even if Maurice and Martha were both pretty responsible. Jennie didn’t seem to think much of it and I saw it mentioned somewhere that they occasionally forgot to do things. They’re human, it happens. Though combined w/ everything else that night…yeah, something’s not right.

I was genuinely shocked at the reveal that the facial software recognition she used said there was a less than 1% chance of the 1960s photo being Louis. It looks a lot like him. I do hope there’s a way to get a second opinion. I remember someone on here saying they think the photo looked more like Maurice? But to me it does look more like Louis. While I do think it was sent by someone who knew something, unfortunately I think her theory has a good chance of being true in that it was a scam by a PI to get more money.

For the trafficking thing, Iirc Miranda mentioned in the previous creepalachia interview that this likely happened in Italy (anyone who watched it recently though, pls correct me if I’m wrong). I also remember the interview w/ Jennie Henthorne saying something that implied that the kids didn’t speak Italian (George didn’t want it spoken in the home and Jennie Sodder immigrated when she was 2 so English was her first language). If so, would kids who didn’t even speak the language really have been profitable? I know I’m sounding naive but if not killed shortly after, I think they probably saw more benefit in trafficking them.

There’s just so many possibilities. Maybe Louis got lucky and was able to escape somehow but until that man in the photo is really identified, that’s all it is and understandably, it’s not something Miranda says is worth pursuing bc until that happens, it just raises more questions than answers. If not Louis, that guys family may not even have the picture anymore or be interested in true crime and thus not know about the case.

That leaves only Betty (and sorta Martha but this post is getting long) as the most likely to have just lived out her life since she’s the most likely to just get adopted out. Even then, there’s a bunch of things that could’ve happened. She may not even have descendants if she lived bc for whatever reason, she didn’t want or couldn’t have kids or she could’ve adopted. Her name was very likely changed too. I guess she may have wanted to go back to the US and visit the site but there’s a multitude of potential reasons why that couldn’t materialize (finances, emotional difficulty, life getting in the way etc)

I combined a lot of info from different sources so here’s the interview w/ Jennie Henthorne I mentioned

My FBI agent is having a field day w/ my google search stuff

 

[Richard]

80 years ago...