Found Deceased WY - Gabrielle ‘Gabby’ Petito, 22, Grand Teton National Park, 25 Aug 2021 #84

[Gemmie]

This sentence?


It mentions a couple of known facts. Why is this sentence important?

Laundrie family's motion to dismiss | PDF | Intentional Infliction Of Emotional Distress | Tort

Thank you for posting the last sentence, of the first paragraph, under Background I, so we're all not all independently opening the MTD to find it ourselves.

Hopefully that's the correct sentence, but it's hard to tell since I see nothing that would make me go Hmmmmm... Maybe in time we'll find out what made the OP go Hmmmmm about it.

 

[Mike in WNY]

Thank you for posting the last sentence, of the first paragraph, under Background I, so we're all not all independently opening the MTD to find it ourselves.

Hopefully that's the correct sentence, but it's hard to tell since I see nothing that would make me go Hmmmmm... Maybe in time we'll find out what made the OP go Hmmmmm about it.

Were I to bet, I'd say that the word "suspected" is being considered.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Were I to bet, I'd say that the word "suspected" is being considered.

I thought about that but couldn't figure out why that would be important.

 

[Satchie]

Were I to bet, I'd say that the word "suspected" is being considered.

However, IMO the wording is correct because there were no witnesses and the scene was completely obliterated before LE/a medical examiner could visit, and the body badly decomposed and incomplete before an autopsy could be conducted.

I think ME's are sticklers for facts. There's nothing to prove, without question, that he wasn't murdered. There's just no reason to suspect it. But it can't be therefore absolutely declared a suicide either.

I don't know what his official cause of death is on the death records, it's probably 'undetermined'.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Brian Laundrie death ruled a suicide by gun, medical examiner confirms

“The cause of death has been determined to be a gunshot wound to the head. The manner of death has been determined to be suicide,” the District 12 Medical Examiner’s office said Tuesday.

 

[Mike in WNY]

IMO, like the entirety of the complaint, the plaintiffs' statements leave me shaking my head. To say "suspected suicide", to me, is more than just a tad bit odd... but, I believe, specifically chosen and absolutely intentional. It seems that it would be so much more typical to reuse the Medical Examiners own words - 'determined to be suicide'. No, I think the phrasing is determined to set the stage for something.

I also happen to think that how this matter is managed by the parties will publicly enlighten much more of their respective characters than was even shown before.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

Apologies, I should have been more clear. No - under Background I .

I'll look again.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

However, IMO the wording is correct because there were no witnesses and the scene was completely obliterated before LE/a medical examiner could visit, and the body badly decomposed and incomplete before an autopsy could be conducted.

I think ME's are sticklers for facts. There's nothing to prove, without question, that he wasn't murdered. There's just no reason to suspect it. But it can't be therefore absolutely declared a suicide either.

I don't know what his official cause of death is on the death records, it's probably 'undetermined'.

JMO

I agree with this - suspected because there is no real way to know for sure.

 

[NCWatcher]

I'm not sure why the L's defense attorney used the phrase "suspected suicide" in the MTD.

In some ways there's not a meaningful difference between saying he died from "suspected suicide" and the manner of death was "determined to be suicide." Either way it's a guess. Educated guess but a guess nonetheless. But to me, "suspected suicide" may suggest BL did not leave an actual suicide note (or if he did, either it was not found or the L's weren't told about the note. I think both of those possibilities are unlikely, especially the 2nd one.) According to the FBI, he did leave some sort of writing taking responsibility for GP's death but that wouldn't necessarily be a suicide note.

It's possible one or both of the L's haven't accepted the ME's verdict and continue to wonder if someone killed BL. I think that's extremely unlikely but it is possible, I guess. We can't know for sure what happened in the swamp and neither can they. (And the autopsy report was written a bit strangely.)
JMO
Edit: punctuation typo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

It will be interesting to see how someone could have murdered BL and staged a suicide good enough to fool the ME. JMO.

 

[NCWatcher]

It will be interesting to see how someone could have murdered BL and staged a suicide good enough to fool the ME. JMO.

I don't think BL was murdered myself. I always thought he'd likely taken his own life when he didn't return from the swamp even though there were supposed sightings all over the Appalachian Trail. But I also think it wouldn't be all that hard to make a gunshot wound to the head look self-inflicted if the body is mostly skeletal by the time it's found (but obviously unburied.) And the person hadn't been known to be a kidnapping victim. And the person had a known reason to consider killing himself.
JMO

 

[al66pine]

Suicide. Suspected or Determined?

... In some ways there's not a meaningful difference between saying he died from "suspected suicide" and the manner of death was "determined to be suicide." Either way it's a guess. Educated guess but a guess nonetheless. ...

@NCWatcher sbm Thanks for your post. Agreeing w you in part. Just speaking here about difference in those two phrases gen'ly, not this case in particular. Have not read these phrases in context of this case.

When a member of the public says "I suspect [name] committed suicide" personally I'm not putting much weight on accuracy without knowing specific facts the commenter used as a basis for suspicion.

The phrase "determined to be suicide" coming from an autopsy report, issued by a medical examiner (or pathologist hired by family to conduct a second autopsy) has actual medical science supporting it. Not infallible, but I'm giving that waaay more weight.

An educated guess? Maybe on occasion but not as a matter of course. my2ct.

 

[Sundog]

When I read the motion to dismiss, the language of "suspected" suicide didn't jump out at me, I read it as the way lawyers often phrase things, since they are not making legal rulings on this.

The medical examiner, however, has a different role to play and it is part of his/her job to make an ajudication. I don't think it is anything significant, but I guess we shall see.

 

[NCWatcher]

Suicide. Suspected or Determined?
@NCWatcher sbm Thanks for your post. Agreeing w you in part. Just speaking here about difference in those two phrases gen'ly, not this case in particular. Have not read these phrases in context of this case.

When a member of the public says "I suspect [name] committed suicide" personally I'm not putting much weight on accuracy without knowing specific facts the commenter used as a basis for suspicion.

The phrase "determined to be suicide" coming from an autopsy report, issued by a medical examiner (or pathologist hired by family to conduct a second autopsy) has actual medical science supporting it. Not infallible, but I'm giving that waaay more weight.

An educated guess? Maybe on occasion but not as a matter of course. my2ct.

I can see your point in general @al66pine.

But I still think any ME's "determination" is a guess in the sense that there are facts he/she cannot know. I don't mean he/she did something close to flipping a coin or using a Magic 8 Ball--not that kind of a guess. But a guess post-mortem grounded in scientific evidence is ultimately still a guess just as many diagnoses in living persons are guesses based on evidence. Not random guesses, but informed or educated guesses with some (usually accepted) element of uncertainty.

In this case, the scientific evidence says the cause of death was a gunshot wound to the head. And scientific reconstruction of the skull says the bullet entered the side of the head on the left. And the report said BL was right-handed according to his sister. (I can't imagine she'd lie or be mistaken about that and the majority of people are right-handed. But Cassie's report of BL's handedness is hardly heavy-duty science. And with skeletal remains, many clues to handedness like more hand calluses and larger muscles on the dominant side are gone. So there's a little uncertainty.) Assuming BL was right-handed, as we discussed on WS when the report came out, some people with hand-eye cross-dominance learn to shoot with the non-dominant hand. Perhaps BL usually shot left-handed. The report doesn't say so but maybe he did. Or maybe he shot with his left hand when he killed himself for reasons nobody knows.

I don't really doubt the ME's conclusions in this case. I think it was suicide. But there are court cases every day where an ME's conclusions are questioned. And sometimes they are proven wrong. (Although the proof isn't absolute either!)

The defense attorney who used the phrase "suspected suicide" likely has read the ME's report so to me that makes his usage close to "determined to be suicide." He's not a member of the public simply opining based on who-knows-what. So maybe we're sort of saying the same thing (in the context of this case.)

JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I'll be surprised if the Laundrie's expend very much resources in investigating a possible murder of BL. Unless the autopsy is shown to be defective.

One thing I found deficient in the ME's report was information about the firearm found near BL's remains. Was it identified as being the gun that the Laundrie's told LE was missing?

It is described as being an "European American Arms Windicator" revolver. No serial number noted. A projectile was located by the FBI in the "main" scene utilizing a metal detector but there's no mention that it matched the gun that was recovered or if it could have been the bullet that struck BL's head.

If it's known that the gun and projectile match the gun missing from the Laundries home it would help to bolster the ME's conclusion that this was a suicide. If the gun has a different origin unrelated to the Laundrie family then there's a problem with their conclusion.

Hopefully information about the gun will be released by LE at some point to clear this up. JMO.

Laundrie, Brian Reports For Public Release | PDF

 

[al66pine]

Suicide. Suspected or Determined? Part 2

I can see your point in general @al66pine.
.... JMO

@NCWatcher sbm
Okay, thanks for taking the time to post about details specific to this sad case. Agreeing w you now in applying the term to young Mr. Laundrie's death, w various unknowns.

And as my post noted & you acknowledged , my comment addressed use of those phrases in general.

 

[Estelle]

I'll be surprised if the Laundrie's expend very much resources in investigating a possible murder of BL. Unless the autopsy is shown to be defective.

One thing I found deficient in the ME's report was information about the firearm found near BL's remains. Was it identified as being the gun that the Laundrie's told LE was missing?

It is described as being an "European American Arms Windicator" revolver. No serial number noted. A projectile was located by the FBI in the "main" scene utilizing a metal detector but there's no mention that it matched the gun that was recovered or if it could have been the bullet that struck BL's head.

If it's known that the gun and projectile match the gun missing from the Laundries home it would help to bolster the ME's conclusion that this was a suicide. If the gun has a different origin unrelated to the Laundrie family then there's a problem with their conclusion.

Hopefully information about the gun will be released by LE at some point to clear this up. JMO.

Laundrie, Brian Reports For Public Release | PDF

IMO if anyone could have murdered BL, it would have been is parents as they knew where he was. I agree that the gun's origins should be investigated.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

IMO if anyone could have murdered BL, it would have been is parents as they knew where he was. I agree that the gun's origins should be investigated.

And since it's obvious they would not do that it makes BL's suicide more believable. JMO.

 

[TL4S]

There are other clues that his death was a suicide, as well.

He left behind his phone and wallet, yet brought along deeply personal effects, like photos and a journal. His hand, a ring, and the gun were all found in relatively the same location that was also by his shoes near the base of a tree, which imo indicates he was maybe sitting with his back to the tree, maybe even with his head down, and when he shot himself, his body slumped forward (my amateur guess...). The ONLY factor to cast a shadow of doubt is that he used his left hand, which as mentioned above, could have a lot of unknown reasons.

It is unusual, but I also take into consideration that paper was found in two separate areas, including a "half note," which I know we've discussed in detail, yet there's no mention of a pen or pencil. Knowing the area was under water after his death, I have to wonder what things might have possibly floated away. It's odd to me that the paper itself was found, but perhaps it got caught up on something nearby, idk. But still...I have to look at everything as a whole and it just seems a good possibility that he was writing at the time. Maybe the "half note" was because he was writing until the very last moment and never finished.

ETA: Another thing of note is that he had a hat with his stuff, but wasn't wearing it at the time of his death. Jmo.

 

[Satchie]

I'm not sure why the L's defense attorney used the phrase "suspected suicide" in the MTD.

In some ways there's not a meaningful difference between saying he died from "suspected suicide" and the manner of death was "determined to be suicide." Either way it's a guess. Educated guess but a guess nonetheless. But to me, "suspected suicide" may suggest BL did not leave an actual suicide note (or if he did, either it was not found or the L's weren't told about the note. I think both of those possibilities are unlikely, especially the 2nd one.) According to the FBI, he did leave some sort of writing taking responsibility for GP's death but that wouldn't necessarily be a suicide note.

It's possible one or both of the L's haven't accepted the ME's verdict and continue to wonder if someone killed BL. I think that's extremely unlikely but it is possible, I guess. We can't know for sure what happened in the swamp and neither can they. (And the autopsy report was written a bit strangely.)
JMO
Edit: punctuation typo

I agree, to me this phrase was a choice of how to describe BL's death in a legal document. IMO, it was not put there to start rumours and invite speculation, it was chosen by the lawyer in the context of writing a legal defense.

I personally think he was just being precise. He is reinforcing that he and the Laundry's don't really know the circumstances of their son's death. It supports the defense that BL didn't share his plans with them at all. And that they are just as uncertain about what happened as the Petitos.

JMO