You, the jury

[BBB167893]

How did JB's blood end up on the Barbie nightgown?If it was put next to the body after she died as a tender gesture then how did her blood end up on it.

IF her blood ended up on it. I don't know of any authoritative source that says it did.

 

[WHITEFANG]

MurriFlower;5293595]Again Madeline, you've raised a very interesting point.

Let's just concentrate on the actual killing for a moment and forget the motivation (cause it brings too much conflict here).

Take a child from her bed (willingly?)

May have been in the kitchen already.

Feed her pineapple (must be willing)

May have found something to eat on her own, like pineapple.

Threatens intruder she will tell her mom on her.

Bruise to her neck (holding her down somehow)

Grabs her by the neck and takes her to the basement.

If there was no semen and only a few drops of blood, what was the motivation for the killing? Just a little digital penetration.

Sexual assault but just digital penetration (as far as we know)

Makes garrote and places it around her neck. Tightening it as she squirmed or made noises. Begins the sex assault. Resists.

Bash to the head (she screamed/struggled)

Strangle with a cord (so she couldn't tell)

Smashes in her head. Finishes strangulation.

Wipe her down and re-dress (cover up? ashamed?)

know her killer? If not why kill her?

Another view

 

[DeeDee249]

Its impossible to produce both a rectangular hole and a corresponding rectangular fragment in any homogenous material, by using a cylindrical object such as a flashlight.

Sure you can, by using the edge. One of the forensic specialists was able to make an identical hole using a flashlight, and a photo was posted right here showing how the flashlight was held.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Sure you can, by using the edge. One of the forensic specialists was able to make an identical hole using a flashlight, and a photo was posted right here showing how the flashlight was held.

"Sure you can..."

I know you wouldn't bring that up unless you had proof, right? Where is the identical hole, and what does it look like? Where is the fragment and what does it look like? Source requested please.

Remember the autopsy report refers to a 'roughly rectangular fragment' that is 1 3/4" x 1/2" in size.

For those of us struggling with the actual facts, it seems that this flashlight could produce a crescent or elliptical shape, based on the cross-section of the flashlight at the impact angle.

There is no 'roughly rectangular' cross-section for this flashlight.

 

[DeeDee249]

IF her blood ended up on it. I don't know of any authoritative source that says it did.

I haven't seen it either, SD. My sense of the nightgown is that it pulled out of the dryer with the blanket, unknowingly. When a kid wets the bed, they don't just wet the bedding, but their nightclothes are wet also. The nightgown was obviously washed with the blanket and pulled out accidentally when the blanket was pulled out, not brought down by someone with a desire to put her "favorite nightgown" with her. When shown a photo of the nightie by LE, JR gave a telling statement. He said "That wasn't supposed to be there". Well, what an understatement- a dead child wrapped in a blanket wasn't supposed to be there, either.

 

[MurriFlower]

I haven't seen it either, SD. My sense of the nightgown is that it pulled out of the dryer with the blanket, unknowingly. When a kid wets the bed, they don't just wet the bedding, but their nightclothes are wet also. The nightgown was obviously washed with the blanket and pulled out accidentally when the blanket was pulled out, not brought down by someone with a desire to put her "favorite nightgown" with her. When shown a photo of the nightie by LE, JR gave a telling statement. He said "That wasn't supposed to be there". Well, what an understatement- a dead child wrapped in a blanket wasn't supposed to be there, either.

I don't think either parent recognised it.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't think either parent recognised it.

Patsy knew it was her daughter's nightie.

 

[cynic]

"Sure you can..."

I know you wouldn't bring that up unless you had proof, right? Where is the identical hole, and what does it look like? Where is the fragment and what does it look like? Source requested please.

Remember the autopsy report refers to a 'roughly rectangular fragment' that is 1 3/4" x 1/2" in size.

For those of us struggling with the actual facts, it seems that this flashlight could produce a crescent or elliptical shape, based on the cross-section of the flashlight at the impact angle.

There is no 'roughly rectangular' cross-section for this flashlight.

Discovery News
Narrator Lyn Cannon
Guest Forensic pathologist Dr. Werner Spitz
…
LC: Published reports this week, speculate a baseball bat, found outside the house, might be the murder weapon. Spitz's tests lead him to a weapon inside the house.
Dr.WS: I would certainly believe that the flashlight is the instrument of death.
LC: What makes you so sure that it's compatible. How do you know?
Dr.WS: Because it fits right into the ....?.. It doesn't fit into the defect where it leaves some area to play with. It fits perfectly.
LC: Not any flashlight, but a specific type police reportedly found in the Ramsey home.
Dr.WS: The flashlight was raised above the head of the perpetrater and,a hand down,...with this portion , this wide, breaking the bone.
LC: So who did it? Here...forensic pathology comes up short. The autopsy tells Spitz only what was done, not by whom.
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03172000spitzondiscovery.htm

"Police believe the flashlight's heavy rubber coating seems consistent with an instrument that could deliver a crushing blow yet not cause bleeding," the magazine reports, without identifying a source.
A flashlight was listed among several blunt objects collected at the Ramsey's Boulder home, according to four search warrants released Sept. 29.
Other seized items, which could have been used to strike Ramsey, included a baseball bat, golf clubs, a red clay brick and a hammer.
Daily Camera, CHRISTOPHER ANDERSON, Camera Staff Writer
Monday, January 12, 1998

DR. WERNER SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, that does -- that did not happen. She was not under the influence of any drugs. And I also understand that he indicated that this was an accident. This was not an accident, and I will tell you in a minute why and...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell us right now.
SPITZ: Well, she did -- it could not have been an accident because she is hit in the head with a heavy instrument, which caused a rectangular fracture in the skull, into which it is possible to sink the head of a 3- mag flashlight. It`s similar to what the police carry, but the police carry a 5-mag. This is a 3-mag flashlight, which was seen on pictures on the kitchen counter. And you need to pick up this thing and heave it over the head and strike with force into the head. How can that be an accident?
http://www.studentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/17/ng.01.html

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I picked the Glock 19 originally, cause the muzzle resembled the shape on the neck. I'm sure there might be other models or makes that would fit with the bruise and the head bash pretty closely.

I'll bet there's an object, either a gun magazine, a gun handle, or knife that fits the rectangular area noted in the autopsy. The actual length of the object is probably 1 3/4" but the width might be somewhat larger than 1/2" in order to cause the fracture.

A square object measuring 1 3/4" x 5/8" would probably knock out a rectangular fragment and create the fracture, but only at a very high speed.

 

[MurriFlower]

I'll bet there's an object, either a gun magazine, a gun handle, or knife that fits the rectangular area noted in the autopsy. The actual length of the object is probably 1 3/4" but the width might be somewhat larger than 1/2" in order to cause the fracture.

A square object measuring 1 3/4" x 5/8" would probably knock out a rectangular fragment and create the fracture, but only at a very high speed.

So, don't you think a SFF would carry a gun then?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

SPITZ: Well, she did -- it could not have been an accident because she is hit in the head with a heavy instrument, which caused a rectangular fracture in the skull, into which it is possible to sink the head of a 3- mag flashlight. It`s similar to what the police carry, but the police carry a 5-mag. This is a 3-mag flashlight, which was seen on pictures on the kitchen counter. And you need to pick up this thing and heave it over the head and strike with force into the head. How can that be an accident?
[URL]http://www.studentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/17/ng.01.html[/URL]

Sinking the head of a flashlight into a hole doesn't mean anything. The challenge is to replicate the fragment. Has this been replicated or not? I believe the autopsy report refers to the size of the fragment as 1 3/4" x 1/2".

What was the size of the fragment that Spitz replicated? Were the sides of the fragment perpendicular to the skull surface? Because that would just be astonishing given the cylindrical/spherical flashlight shape.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

So, don't you think a SFF would carry a gun then?

Do I think they brought guns? I think they brought Uzi's, and the magazine for a mini-Uzi isn't that far off.

 

[MurriFlower]

Do I think they brought guns? I think they brought Uzi's, and the magazine for a mini-Uzi isn't that far off.

I noticed a distinct notch in the photo, and that should be very telling. It's a square notch about 1/3 the way up one side of the rectangle.

Excellent, if you can identify the weapon, we'll be half way there. I'm thinking that a mini-Uzi isn't the kind of gun that would be easy to get or easy to conceal and if you're caught with it, the game's up. Whereas, something that's in fairly common use, and is licensed (do you have licensing for handguns over there?), could be carried would be more likely JMO. I'm still wondering what weapon the BPD would have carried back then. Anyone have a source that they can find out?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Excellent, if you can identify the weapon, we'll be half way there. I'm thinking that a mini-Uzi isn't the kind of gun that would be easy to get or easy to hide and if you're caught with it, the game's up. Whereas, something that's in fairly common use, and is licensed (do you have licensing for handguns over there?), could be carried would be more likely JMO. I'm still wondering what weapon the BPD would have carried back then. Anyone have a source that they can find out?

The game's up for whom? This is supposed to be mean angry ruthless SFF, remember? They have whatever guns they want.

 

[MurriFlower]

The game's up for whom? This is supposed to be mean angry ruthless SFF, remember? They have whatever guns they want.

Oh yeah, I was thinking just 'weekend warriors' LOL. So, these angry, ruthless SFF come, diddle and kill a little girl, and go back to whence they came?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Oh yeah, I was thinking just 'weekend warriors' LOL. So, these angry, ruthless SFF come, diddle and kill a little girl, and go back to whence they came?

Yep, pretty much.

I suggest considering what you do know: the criminality and the bizarre ancillary facts. Your pistolwhip idea, plus the garrote (not manual) strangulation, the red heart, the pineapple, the 'bizarre' ransom note, the atypical sexual assault, the crime-movie lines, the concept of beheading execution of a small child. The ransom note placement on the REAR stairs.

Now, consider what you do not know: What happened exactly between 10 PM and 6 AM? What else did they bring besides cord and tape and an attitude? What did they take with them? How many people knew beforehand? Zero? One? More than one? How many people know now? More than who was there? Do they trust each other? Will any one of them rat on the other?

They left with an experience, and without getting caught. I know that much.

 

[MurriFlower]

Assuming IDI:
If you reduce the crime to its most fundamental and difficult steps, then you could see not only that it was premeditated but how it was planned.

1. JBR was moved from her bedroom to the basement without disturbing the parents.

1. 
   
   Can you suggest why? If this was a military operation with the object being to bash and strangle the child (all pre-planned):
   why wasn't it done right there in her bedroom?
   why the girl, wouldn't the son be a more significant target for a SFF?
   why the sexual assault - Ok the 'spoils of war' but you don't rape and pillage, then wipe down and re-dress the victim and wrap them in a blanket.
   why the cord around the wrists?
   why then hide the body in the wine cellar when she could have been placed in a prominent position anywhere in the house, for maximum impact.
   
   

   [*]A long and unusual ransom note was written using pen and paper from the house, probably while the R's were at the Whites. It was placed on the REAR stairs sometime during the night.

   
   So your military killed her for a reason, and that reason was?
   And the RN was it a last minute decision? It was written in the house while the family was out on their own paper with their own pen in the handwriting of the 'commander'. Had this been planned it would have been at least typed and brought.
   
   

   [*]JBR was strangled to death by cord that was not sourced to the house. Probably the intruder brought the cord with them.

   Why wasn't the RN brought with them as well as the cord and tape and perhaps the (old and battered) paint brush? After two and a half pages we still have no idea why she was killed except a cryptic we don't respect "the country it serves". Why not "death to Americans!!" Why not behead as was promised, in the RN, why strangle instead?
   
   Where did the amount $118,000 come from? Was it a random amount; socially/culturally/religiously significant?
   
   Why then kill (as you had planned all along), but also give such long and detailed instructions.
   
   If you didn't want them to phone anyone, then why not cut the telephone lines.
   
   And the placement of the RN on the stairs. Was this significant, given that a SFF wouldn't know the usual movements of the PR. Why not in the kitchen on the bench? Next to the telephone?
   
   
   

   [*]Probably nighttime and stealth tactics were used because the ransom note has vocabulary that only fits a political-military background, and not religion or southern female journalism as RDI has repeatedly claimed over and over again.

   
   Why stealth at all? Why not burst in when the family was opening their Christmas presents, masked and armed, terrorise, rape and shoot whomever you please?
   
   

   There's no question it was premeditated. Not only that, it was elaborate. The perp(s) came to the house undetected hours ahead of time bringing only cord & tape, they lay in wait and write long notes, and move JBR silently from her bedroom to the basement. They leave without disturbing anyone.

   
   Yep to the above. BUT what was premeditated - not the murder I don't think. SFF's don't sneak in and kill little girls or put tape on dead girlies mouths and afterwards try to make them 'all better'.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Can you suggest why? If this was a military operation with the object being to bash and strangle the child (all pre-planned):
why wasn't it done right there in her bedroom?
why the girl, wouldn't the son be a more significant target for a SFF?
why the sexual assault - Ok the 'spoils of war' but you don't rape and pillage, then wipe down and re-dress the victim and wrap them in a blanket.
why the cord around the wrists?
why then hide the body in the wine cellar when she could have been placed in a prominent position anywhere in the house, for maximum impact.



So your military killed her for a reason, and that reason was?
And the RN was it a last minute decision? It was written in the house while the family was out on their own paper with their own pen in the handwriting of the 'commander'. Had this been planned it would have been at least typed and brought.

Why wasn't the RN brought with them as well as the cord and tape and perhaps the (old and battered) paint brush? After two and a half pages we still have no idea why she was killed except a cryptic we don't respect "the country it serves". Why not "death to Americans!!" Why not behead as was promised, in the RN, why strangle instead?

Where did the amount $118,000 come from? Was it a random amount; socially/culturally/religiously significant?

Why then kill (as you had planned all along), but also give such long and detailed instructions.

If you didn't want them to phone anyone, then why not cut the telephone lines.

And the placement of the RN on the stairs. Was this significant, given that a SFF wouldn't know the usual movements of the PR. Why not in the kitchen on the bench? Next to the telephone?




Why stealth at all? Why not burst in when the family was opening their Christmas presents, masked and armed, terrorise, rape and shoot whomever you please?



Yep to the above. BUT what was premeditated - not the murder I don't think. SFF's don't sneak in and kill little girls or put tape on dead girlies mouths and afterwards try to make them 'all better'.

Its not like the world is a completely sensible place with nothing but sensible people in it and we have this one anomaly. Pardon the wildcard excuse, but really...

If more than one person was involved, as I believe there was, then there are many things misconstrued, many things never considered, and many things unknown. The idea that neither you nor I understand the motivation isn't remarkable. Its accepting that we don't know that is the first step to finding the truth.

"So your military killed her for a reason, and that reason was?"


The reason a military would kill a small child is for ideological training and/or initiation.

However I said a person with a military background, not necessarily a 'military'. This is your spin.

 

[BBB167893]

Patsy knew it was her daughter's nightie.

Nedra didn't have any trouble recognizing it, either, if memory serves.

When shown a photo of the nightie by LE, JR gave a telling statement. He said "That wasn't supposed to be there".

Yes, I read that just today. He sure was quick to change the subject, wasn't he?

 

[MurriFlower]

Its not like the world is a completely sensible place with nothing but sensible people in it and we have this one anomaly. Pardon the wildcard excuse, but really...

We've got to examine each theory for bits that fit and bits that don't.

If more than one person was involved, as I believe there was, then there are many things misconstrued, many things never considered, and many things unknown. The idea that neither you nor I understand the motivation isn't remarkable. Its accepting that we don't know that is the first step to finding the truth.

Yep, more than one. Many things unknown. Yep, Yep, we need to keep looking.

"So your military killed her for a reason, and that reason was?"

The reason a military would kill a small child is for ideological training and/or initiation.

Maybe.

However I said a person with a military background, not necessarily a 'military'. This is your spin.

Yep, now you're talking. Military, do you guys have school/college based military training groups? Cadets? Armed??

Cops, did they carry Glocks? Anyone??