You, the jury

[UKGuy]

:clap:

Compare the news coverage of IDI's DNA and RDI's fibers in the paint tote or garrote. There is simply no comparison on supporting facts from multiple sources and LE agencies.

This is because jacket fibers in the tote or entwined in the garrote is a myth. Either that or it has been ignored by the media, the GJ, etc for no reason. I would tend to go with the myth because had the fiber evidence been real as described here it would've weighed heavier in the news as LE would've pushed it.

Holdontoyourhat,
Its no myth!

RAMSEYS 2000 INTERVIEWS IN ATLANTA
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4665

7 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) What color
8 were the ski gloves that you were thinking
9 about?
10 A. It seems to me like they were
11 black. I can't be sure, but I think they
12 were black. They were the puffy kind.
13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Now, Mrs. Ramsey,
14 you -- are you aware, I should say, that
15 your paint kit was found very close to the
16 wine cellar door?
17 A. I have heard that.
18 Q. Did you recall at any time that
19 you were shown photographs in that regard?
20 A. No.
21 Q. We have found, and I want you to
22 help us, maybe you can offer an explanation
23 for this. We have found fibers in the paint
24 tray that appear to come off of the coat in
25 the photograph we showed you.
0184
1 A. In the paint tray?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. What's a paint --
4 MR. WOOD: Hold on. Let him ask
5 you his question and then answer his
6 question. What is your question?
7 MR. LEVIN: I did.
8 MR. WOOD: You got your answer?
9 MR. LEVIN: Well, I got, she said
10 what's a paint tray.
11 MR. WOOD: No, she didn't. She
12 was following your question, in the paint
13 tray because you said we have found, and I
14 want you to help us, maybe you can offer an
15 explanation for this. We have found fibers
16 in the paint tray that appear to come off of
17 the coat in the photograph we showed you.
18 What is the question?

...

and for your delectation:

MR. LEVIN: I think that is
4 probably fair. Based on the state of the
5 art scientific testing, we believe the fibers
6 from her jacket were found in the paint
7 tray, were found tied into the ligature found
8 on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket
9 that she is wrapped in, were found on the
10 duct tape that is found on the mouth, and
11 the question is, can she explain to us how
12 those fibers appeared in those places that
13 are associated with her daughter's death.
14 And I understand you are not going to answer
15 those.

No wonder she never answered ...

.

 

[DeeDee249]

If this forum has a search feature, it should be easy enough for anyone interested to find the quotes about the doll and from the woman who worked for the doll manufacturer.
As far as the tan cotton fibers- they are listed among the evidence taken from the body/crime scene.
There is speculation that they came from JB's doll OR work gloves. As no work gloves were found and JB was KNOWN to have that type of doll, my bet is on the doll. Unfortunately, the doll "disappeared" from the house, so it was not tested against the tan fibers. The replacement doll, which was delivered to Access Graphics AFTER JB's death has not been accounted for, as far as I know, and I don't know whether it could be used to source those fibers. I suppose if the dolls had cloth bodies made from the same material it could be used, but if the dye lots or exact composition of the fabric were different, even slightly, then the replacement doll is of no use. Moot point anyway- the doll will never be turned over, if it even exists at this point. 16 years later, to use a doll made today would probably be equally useless.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdontoyourhat,
Its no myth!



and for your delectation:


No wonder she never answered ...

.

Uh, I said its either a myth or its being ignored...

If its real then why is it being ignored? I suggest reading your own post:

We have found fibers in the paint
24 tray that appear to come off of the coat in
25 the photograph we showed you.

They could say that about practially any lint they find! Don't you think they were putting pressure on PR in questioning, almost an interrogation? To see what they could win from making PR believe they had smoking gun evidence when obviously they didn't?

I mean, where is the fiber expert testimony??


And what was it that PR stated that you think was so incriminating but is being completely ignored by the media?

 

[DeeDee249]

Uh, I said its either a myth or its being ignored...

If its real then why is it being ignored? I suggest reading your own post:

We have found fibers in the paint
24 tray that appear to come off of the coat in
25 the photograph we showed you.

They could say that about practially any lint they find! Don't you think they were putting pressure on PR in questioning, almost an interrogation? To see what they could win from making PR believe they had smoking gun evidence when obviously they didn't?

I mean, where is the fiber expert testimony??


And what was it that PR stated that you think was so incriminating but is being completely ignored by the media?

The fiber expert testimony, like the DNA expert testimony, would have been given at a trial. It is unfortunate that this case never went to trial, because that testimony could have settled this case one way or the other. As it is now, expert testimony of the caliber required to be presented to a trial jury just didn't happen.

 

[MurriFlower]

The fiber expert testimony, like the DNA expert testimony, would have been given at a trial. It is unfortunate that this case never went to trial, because that testimony could have settled this case one way or the other. As it is now, expert testimony of the caliber required to be presented to a trial jury just didn't happen.

Or perhaps if it HAD gone to trial they would have had to produce this 'evidence', and convince a jury. Pity really that it didn't happen. PR wanted it. They knew they would lose. They probably had nothing and they knew it.

 

[DeeDee249]

Or perhaps if it HAD gone to trial they would have had to produce this 'evidence', and convince a jury. Pity really that it didn't happen. PR wanted it. They knew they would lose. They probably had nothing and they knew it.

That is exactly what I meant. If there had been a trial, all evidence would have to be presented, and any chance of conviction would have required the prosecution produce expert testimony.
I don't think for one minute either R wanted a trial. And frankly, Patsy's (or rather, JB's) doctor had Patsy so drugged up, her lawyers would certainly have made sure she was deemed unfit to stand trial.
I don't think LE thought they had nothing. I think they thought they had enough evidence. It was the DA who didn't want to take a chance going to trial. Not just in this case, either. AH was notoriously trial-shy, by all accounts, instead preferring to plea-bargain even the most serious offenses. He had lost a trial some years before and was so humiliated he didn't want to risk it ever again, especially so close to retirement.

 

[MurriFlower]

That is exactly what I meant. If there had been a trial, all evidence would have to be presented, and any chance of conviction would have required the prosecution produce expert testimony.
I don't think for one minute either R wanted a trial. And frankly, Patsy's (or rather, JB's) doctor had Patsy so drugged up, her lawyers would certainly have made sure she was deemed unfit to stand trial.
I don't think LE thought they had nothing. I think they thought they had enough evidence. It was the DA who didn't want to take a chance going to trial. Not just in this case, either. AH was notoriously trial-shy, by all accounts, instead preferring to plea-bargain even the most serious offenses. He had lost a trial some years before and was so humiliated he didn't want to risk it ever again, especially so close to retirement.

I don't expect anyone ever WANTS to go through a trial, but after what the Rs had endured ("Trial by Media"), they might have thought at least it would get it over for once an for all.

It's a pity all round (RDI, IDI or KFI) didn't get their day in court to actually present this 'evidence' we are all discussing.

Let's face it, here we are still hotly debating this almost 14 years later without really knowing if everything has been revealed!

 

[Ames]

I don't expect anyone ever WANTS to go through a trial, but after what the Rs had endured ("Trial by Media"), they might have thought at least it would get it over for once an for all.

It's a pity all round (RDI, IDI or KFI) didn't get their day in court to actually present this 'evidence' we are all discussing.

Let's face it, here we are still hotly debating this almost 14 years later without really knowing if everything has been revealed!

According to "48 Hours", they did an interview with John...and it was stated by the announcer at the end of the show...that there was a "warehouse full of evidence" that hadn't even been looked at. I found the transcript to that show and posted it here awhile back. I can't do it now, because I need to put my baby down for a nap, but...I will look for it later and repost it IF I can find it again.

 

[MurriFlower]

According to "48 Hours", they did an interview with John...and it was stated by the announcer at the end of the show...that there was a "warehouse full of evidence" that hadn't even been looked at. I found the transcript to that show and posted it here awhile back. I can't do it now, because I need to put my baby down for a nap, but...I will look for it later and repost it IF I can find it again.

No that's OK, Aimes, I remember seeing it. While you are saying that here, you are telling me on another thread there is absolutely no evidence for an intruder?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The fiber expert testimony, like the DNA expert testimony, would have been given at a trial. It is unfortunate that this case never went to trial, because that testimony could have settled this case one way or the other. As it is now, expert testimony of the caliber required to be presented to a trial jury just didn't happen.

You're right. Expert testimony on fiber evidence didn't happen. Funny thing is, even a simple statement didn't happen either. I mean, I'll accept even an expert statement on fiber evidence. Got one?

We have a DNA laboratory that made statements, heck they even have current reference to JBR case DNA on their website! There are other statements made by other DNA experts to the media. This corroborates the DNA evidence. There is nothing corroborating the fiber evidence. Why?

I specifically asked for expert testimony as to fiber evidence. Where is it? I don't care if its a simple media quoted statement so long as it is from a fiber expert.

The paint tote and garrote entwined fiber evidence is in serious doubt, unless you have corroborating statement from fiber expert. Serious questions arise as to its very existence because it can't be sourced outside these interrogation interview transcripts, where its obvious investigators would have an ulterior motive. Its obvious they wanted to present PR with a smoking gun case so PR would go ahead and cave in which didn't work.

 

[UKGuy]

You're right. Expert testimony on fiber evidence didn't happen. Funny thing is, even a simple statement didn't happen either. I mean, I'll accept even an expert statement on fiber evidence. Got one?

We have a DNA laboratory that made statements, heck they even have current reference to JBR case DNA on their website! There are other statements made by other DNA experts to the media. This corroborates the DNA evidence. There is nothing corroborating the fiber evidence. Why?

I specifically asked for expert testimony as to fiber evidence. Where is it? I don't care if its a simple media quoted statement so long as it is from a fiber expert.

The paint tote and garrote entwined fiber evidence is in serious doubt, unless you have corroborating statement from fiber expert. Serious questions arise as to its very existence because it can't be sourced outside these interrogation interview transcripts, where its obvious investigators would have an ulterior motive. Its obvious they wanted to present PR with a smoking gun case so PR would go ahead and cave in which didn't work.

Holdontoyourhat,
even if a fiber expert offered an opinion, other experts could be found to offer diferent opinions, this means that the fiber evidence is circumstantial. Unlike the pineapple in JonBenet's stomach, or Patsy's fingerprint on the tableware, which she denied was hers.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

I can't believe ALL the interviews are GONE. Anyone know why? Does the owner of ACR post here? Any way to reach him/her?

 

[BBB167893]

Compare the news coverage of IDI's DNA and RDI's fibers in the paint tote or garrote. There is simply no comparison on supporting facts from multiple sources and LE agencies.

BIG DEAL.

This is because jacket fibers in the tote or entwined in the garrote is a myth.

Sure. And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

Either that or it has been ignored by the media, the GJ, etc for no reason.

They may not have known about them.

I would tend to go with the myth because had the fiber evidence been real as described here it would've weighed heavier in the news as LE would've pushed it.

Maybe you didn't notice, HOTYH, but LE TRIED to push it. And I'm convinced that anywhere besides Boulder, it would have weighed very heavy indeed.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't think for one minute either R wanted a trial.

Me, neither. Look at the way they acted any time the idea of an arrest became "real."

I don't think LE thought they had nothing. I think they thought they had enough evidence.

Kane certainly felt strongly about it. And he's not a prosecutor who makes a habit of losing.

It was the DA who didn't want to take a chance going to trial. Not just in this case, either. AH was notoriously trial-shy, by all accounts, instead preferring to plea-bargain even the most serious offenses. He had lost a trial some years before and was so humiliated he didn't want to risk it ever again, especially so close to retirement.

:woohoo: Tell it like it is, DD!

 

[BBB167893]

Its obvious they wanted to present PR with a smoking gun case so PR would go ahead and cave in which didn't work.

Assuming I believe that, and I don't, mind you--I'm convinced that it WOULD have worked if LW hadn't been there to run interference.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I won't address again Patsy's jacket fibers with IDI, they have been discussed MANY times before.

This is probably wise, as fibers have no corroboration. Fibers entwined in the garrote and in the paint tote that belonged to PR's jacket--never really existed.

The DNA is in CODIS and ML put it there.

 

[claudicici]

How do you know they never existed?
What about "the warehouse full of evidence"?

 

[Ames]

No that's OK, Aimes, I remember seeing it. While you are saying that here, you are telling me on another thread there is absolutely no evidence for an intruder?

At the obvious places...that we KNOW for sure were tested. Like..the crime scene itself...for example.

 

[Mysteeri]

This is probably wise, as fibers have no corroboration. Fibers entwined in the garrote and in the paint tote that belonged to PR's jacket--never really existed.

The DNA is in CODIS and ML put it there.

I thougth those fibers did exist until I read about BP presentation in PMPT. There was no mention of those fibers. The four fibers in the duct tape were consistent (not necessarily a definite match, but I take they were from her jacket) with the jacket that Patsy had worn.

Why would BP not mention these fibers if they did exist?

 

[Ames]

The tape on the blanket is the tape from her mouth; that is very clearly a shadow and not a longer piece of tape. I do not recall anyone saying the mouth tape was 2x2, which wouldn't cover even a toddler's mouth.
Her legs were not taped. They would have still been in that position when she was brought up. What reason might LE have to deny the tape on her legs? There is no reason that makes sense to me- it could have been staging as easily as it could have been the work of the "kidnapper".
And I won't be providing a link about the doll. Anyone here have that link from the woman who worked for the Pleasant Co.? (manufacturers of the doll). This is the woman who came forward with the info on the doll being sent to Access Graphics after the murder.
I won't address again Patsy's jacket fibers with IDI, they have been discussed MANY times before. IDI says no fibers- RDI says the fibers match Patsy's jacket. LE said they had a fiber match. IDI says no, RDI says yes- The End.

DeeDee...I posted awhile back..the article about the lady that worked for Pleasant Co. I will try and find it, and repost it here.

I found it!!!
For all of the newbies that had questions about the re-ordered American Girl Doll....this is an interesting read. It was posted over at Forums For Justice...by Tricia, she owns both Websleuths and FFJ.



Who Ordered an American Girl Doll, in the Name of JonBenet, on Januay 1st 1997 and had it Delivered to Access Graphics?


You all know the wonderful Jahazafat. Jahazafat, for years, has been screaming into the wind about the dolls, the fibers and the special order in JBR’s name in 1997. In fact Jahazafat has a website with some of the information. http://www.geocities.com/pinker44/
The problem I had with Jahazafat was not her story but how she came about the information. She didn’t have a reason to lie yet there was no source. I didn’t know what to do with her story.

Until now.

First, I want to thank Peggy (Little) for this information. It was posted first on Crime and Justice. I am grateful Peggy brought it to my attention.
http://pub165.ezboard.com/fcrimeandjustice13552frm78
Jahazafat worked for Pleasant Company. She saw the order in JonBenet’s name and where the doll was delivered to. Access Graphics. Jahazafat told me later that the order was paid for with a money order or cashiers check. No credit card trail.
Below is the email I received from Jahazafat concerning the dolls and the tape. Bold is mine.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `
I worked for Pleasant Company, owned by Mattel, which sells American Girl Dolls, from October 1998 to January 2004. I worked at a call center in Wilmot, Wisconsin. I worked as a variable order processor, which means I worked seasonally. The job was taking credit card phone orders for products and putting them into a computer system. It also involved fielding customer service issues and processing requests to mail the catalogue.
I read this in Perfect Murder, Perfect Town the last week of September 1999. "The day before, one of Patsy Ramsey's sisters had gone into the house with police permission and taken out an oil painting, several American Girl dolls, a portfolio of JonBenet's pageant photographs…”. I first thought it a testament to the wonderful products that the dolls were so special to be removed. But when I got to the end of the book there was a list that mentioned the duct tape had to be from ‘outside the house’. I had specific training that if a customer called in and complained about the cord attaching the head to tell them to duct tape it down. It could also be tucked in the clothing or sewn, but never cut, and for safety reasons, never pinned. The duct tape was presented as proof of an intruder but the dolls have a verifiable connection to duct tape and the Ramseys were allowed to remove them from the crime scene.
I did simple experiments with duct tape on a doll. If you tape the string down when you pull the tape off there remains a visible residue and it pulls out the white polyester stuffing, which sticks to the tape and makes it not sticky. Somewhere I read a reference to white fibers on the tape but have never been able to relocate those one or two lines. It’s likely these white fibers were the cause of the Santa Bear fiasco. The duct tape information upset me tremendously. I spoke to my father, an attorney, and he called Hunter’s office. He spoke with Leslie Aaholm. This was literally days before the GJ disbanded. I followed up the phone call with letters to Kane and Owens. From reading about Hunter’s office, he couldn’t be trusted 100% so as supportive back up, I called and wrote Craig Lewis. The GJ made no decision but Owens went on TV a few days later talking about ‘new evidence’ and Henry Lee had come to town. It was encouraging but nothing more happened.
I bought a PC out of frustration early in 2000 to follow the case online. I read more about the evidence and in particular ‘mysterious’ fibers found on the body and clothing. Sometimes they were listed as blue and sometimes they were dark. I looked at a Molly doll in a display case and gathered at her feet were thousands of navy blue wool fibers that had shed from her skirt. As with the duct tape, there was an eerie connection.
In September 1999 a computer search with the Ramsey’s Boulder address revealed a catalogue sent to JonBenet in 1996. A separate search had shown an order for a Samantha doll sent to Patsy in Charlevoix in July 1996. Computer searches are done with zip code and last name. In the spring of 2000 I searched and found an order listed as ordered by and shipped to JonBenet herself on Pearl Street, January 1, 1997. I about fell off my seat. I never saw the paper order, only computer documentation. Mail orders are processed in Middleton, WI for speed in delivery as that is were they are received. It also was years before and paper copies are shredded within two weeks of processing. A search with Nedra’s name and zip showed an order from early September 1996. Nedra’s computer file has the misspelling of Nedba. I could go on with pages of information about the orders and the computer systems but it's very technical.
As with the duct tape information, I wrote letters to Kane, Owens, and Lewis with info about the dark fibers and the doll sent to Access Graphics. I also emailed the Boulder Police department. and Chuck Green. There was never anything other than computer generated receipt confirmations; I think those came from Owens. This was spring 2000. I waited years before I posted much online. I held out hope that it would be investigated. A year or two later Smit came out with information about tan cotton fibers, which only cemented the doll connection, as the torso is tan cotton. This revelation had me again writing and emailing to the same list and then some. I have shared; written, called, or emailed this story to hundreds of people. Anytime the Ramseys appear on TV, I rebut with my story. Anytime I read of another Ramsey lawsuit I contact the defendants. I have not been silent but oddly, I have never been asked a single question either.
About using duct tapes on the dolls, employees don’t all receive the exact same training. Training sessions are small-unscripted affairs. It may have just been an off the cuff remark. I asked a few fellow workers and none related any duct tape training. It is not even a huge issue and in the course of my employment I only received a handful of calls about that cord. My father though did call and after several tries got the recommendation to use duct tape. I know the person I heard it from was trained by Middleton, not Wilmot which may account for the discrepancy.
I never felt comfortable speaking up when I was employed, as it is a sensitive issue. The products are for young girls and association with a crime is less than ideal. I have friends who support families based on the success of the company. But if I look at the larger picture the information needs to be available so other law enforcement agencies can learn from what went so drastically wrong. If it is used to prevent a single crime against a child it’s worth it.
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