You, the jury

[BBB167893]

I thougth those fibers did exist until I read about BP presentation in PMPT. There was no mention of those fibers. The four fibers in the duct tape were consistent (not necessarily a definite match, but I take they were from her jacket) with the jacket that Patsy had worn.

Why would BP not mention these fibers if they did exist?

They probably didn't have them at the time. A lot of testing still hadn't happened.

 

[MurriFlower]

DeeDee...I posted awhile back..the article about the lady that worked for Pleasant Co. I will try and find it, and repost it here.

I found it!!!
For all of the newbies that had questions about the re-ordered American Girl Doll....this is an interesting read. It was posted over at Forums For Justice...by Tricia, she owns both Websleuths and FFJ.



Who Ordered an American Girl Doll, in the Name of JonBenet, on Januay 1st 1997 and had it Delivered to Access Graphics?


You all know the wonderful Jahazafat. Jahazafat, for years, has been screaming into the wind about the dolls, the fibers and the special order in JBR’s name in 1997. In fact Jahazafat has a website with some of the information. http://www.geocities.com/pinker44/
The problem I had with Jahazafat was not her story but how she came about the information. She didn’t have a reason to lie yet there was no source. I didn’t know what to do with her story.

Until now.

First, I want to thank Peggy (Little) for this information. It was posted first on Crime and Justice. I am grateful Peggy brought it to my attention.
http://pub165.ezboard.com/fcrimeandjustice13552frm78
Jahazafat worked for Pleasant Company. She saw the order in JonBenet’s name and where the doll was delivered to. Access Graphics. Jahazafat told me later that the order was paid for with a money order or cashiers check. No credit card trail.
Below is the email I received from Jahazafat concerning the dolls and the tape. Bold is mine.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `
I worked for Pleasant Company, owned by Mattel, which sells American Girl Dolls, from October 1998 to January 2004. I worked at a call center in Wilmot, Wisconsin. I worked as a variable order processor, which means I worked seasonally. The job was taking credit card phone orders for products and putting them into a computer system. It also involved fielding customer service issues and processing requests to mail the catalogue.
I read this in Perfect Murder, Perfect Town the last week of September 1999. "The day before, one of Patsy Ramsey's sisters had gone into the house with police permission and taken out an oil painting, several American Girl dolls, a portfolio of JonBenet's pageant photographs…”. I first thought it a testament to the wonderful products that the dolls were so special to be removed. But when I got to the end of the book there was a list that mentioned the duct tape had to be from ‘outside the house’. I had specific training that if a customer called in and complained about the cord attaching the head to tell them to duct tape it down. It could also be tucked in the clothing or sewn, but never cut, and for safety reasons, never pinned. The duct tape was presented as proof of an intruder but the dolls have a verifiable connection to duct tape and the Ramseys were allowed to remove them from the crime scene.
I did simple experiments with duct tape on a doll. If you tape the string down when you pull the tape off there remains a visible residue and it pulls out the white polyester stuffing, which sticks to the tape and makes it not sticky. Somewhere I read a reference to white fibers on the tape but have never been able to relocate those one or two lines. It’s likely these white fibers were the cause of the Santa Bear fiasco. The duct tape information upset me tremendously. I spoke to my father, an attorney, and he called Hunter’s office. He spoke with Leslie Aaholm. This was literally days before the GJ disbanded. I followed up the phone call with letters to Kane and Owens. From reading about Hunter’s office, he couldn’t be trusted 100% so as supportive back up, I called and wrote Craig Lewis. The GJ made no decision but Owens went on TV a few days later talking about ‘new evidence’ and Henry Lee had come to town. It was encouraging but nothing more happened.
I bought a PC out of frustration early in 2000 to follow the case online. I read more about the evidence and in particular ‘mysterious’ fibers found on the body and clothing. Sometimes they were listed as blue and sometimes they were dark. I looked at a Molly doll in a display case and gathered at her feet were thousands of navy blue wool fibers that had shed from her skirt. As with the duct tape, there was an eerie connection.
In September 1999 a computer search with the Ramsey’s Boulder address revealed a catalogue sent to JonBenet in 1996. A separate search had shown an order for a Samantha doll sent to Patsy in Charlevoix in July 1996. Computer searches are done with zip code and last name. In the spring of 2000 I searched and found an order listed as ordered by and shipped to JonBenet herself on Pearl Street, January 1, 1997. I about fell off my seat. I never saw the paper order, only computer documentation. Mail orders are processed in Middleton, WI for speed in delivery as that is were they are received. It also was years before and paper copies are shredded within two weeks of processing. A search with Nedra’s name and zip showed an order from early September 1996. Nedra’s computer file has the misspelling of Nedba. I could go on with pages of information about the orders and the computer systems but it's very technical.
As with the duct tape information, I wrote letters to Kane, Owens, and Lewis with info about the dark fibers and the doll sent to Access Graphics. I also emailed the Boulder Police department. and Chuck Green. There was never anything other than computer generated receipt confirmations; I think those came from Owens. This was spring 2000. I waited years before I posted much online. I held out hope that it would be investigated. A year or two later Smit came out with information about tan cotton fibers, which only cemented the doll connection, as the torso is tan cotton. This revelation had me again writing and emailing to the same list and then some. I have shared; written, called, or emailed this story to hundreds of people. Anytime the Ramseys appear on TV, I rebut with my story. Anytime I read of another Ramsey lawsuit I contact the defendants. I have not been silent but oddly, I have never been asked a single question either.
About using duct tapes on the dolls, employees don’t all receive the exact same training. Training sessions are small-unscripted affairs. It may have just been an off the cuff remark. I asked a few fellow workers and none related any duct tape training. It is not even a huge issue and in the course of my employment I only received a handful of calls about that cord. My father though did call and after several tries got the recommendation to use duct tape. I know the person I heard it from was trained by Middleton, not Wilmot which may account for the discrepancy.
I never felt comfortable speaking up when I was employed, as it is a sensitive issue. The products are for young girls and association with a crime is less than ideal. I have friends who support families based on the success of the company. But if I look at the larger picture the information needs to be available so other law enforcement agencies can learn from what went so drastically wrong. If it is used to prevent a single crime against a child it’s worth it.
__________________

Assuming what you have posted here is all true, what conclusions do you draw from this?

 

[claudicici]

...if this is true it would show that JR felt the need to replace the original doll and have it send to his business rather than his home address....from that I would draw the conclusion that the original doll held some type of evidence ( the navy blue fibers? the duct tape?) and JR got rid of the original doll and ordered a new one in case he was told to hand it over to LE....I can't really think of another reason why he would order a duplicate doll and have it send to his business....

 

[MurriFlower]

...if this is true it would show that JR felt the need to replace the original doll and have it send to his business rather than his home address....from that I would draw the conclusion that the original doll held some type of evidence ( the navy blue fibers? the duct tape?) and JR got rid of the original doll and ordered a new one in case he was told to hand it over to LE....I can't really think of another reason why he would order a duplicate doll and have it send to his business....

Hmm, interesting theory. How do you suppose they got the original doll out? Would this have been put in the golf bag by PP when she got all the other evidence, or was this sent with poor little Burke in his (rather overloaded) backpack on the morning JBR was found?

If what you suggest is correct about the doll having anything to do with JBRs murder, why then would they replace it? Why not it just disappears, like the Santa Teddy? How would the doll sent to AG do anything EXCEPT implicate the Rs?

I'm thinking the most likely explanation, (if the story is true at all and not just 'scuttlebutt') as there is no record of who purchased the doll, is that it was maliciously sent by someone trying to implicate the Rs in their daughter's death. It may have even been sent by the killer!!

 

[DeeDee249]

I doubt the doll went with BR.
That doll order from the Pleasant Company may have no paperwork, but it was PAID for by someone with either a check or credit card. That's all you need to determine who ordered it.

 

[MurriFlower]

I doubt the doll went with BR.
That doll order from the Pleasant Company may have no paperwork, but it was PAID for by someone with either a check or credit card. That's all you need to determine who ordered it.

No, I think that was the point:

Jahazafat told me later that the order was paid for with a money order or cashiers check. No credit card trail.

 

[claudicici]

Hmm, interesting theory. How do you suppose they got the original doll out? Would this have been put in the golf bag by PP when she got all the other evidence, or was this sent with poor little Burke in his (rather overloaded) backpack on the morning JBR was found?

If what you suggest is correct about the doll having anything to do with JBRs murder, why then would they replace it? Why not it just disappears, like the Santa Teddy? How would the doll sent to AG do anything EXCEPT implicate the Rs?

I'm thinking the most likely explanation, (if the story is true at all and not just 'scuttlebutt') as there is no record of who purchased the doll, is that it was maliciously sent by someone trying to implicate the Rs in their daughter's death. It may have even been sent by the killer!!

The doll was on the list of things for PP to take out of the house.She took the american doll out of the house with the knowledge of BPD,so if they later on would have asked we want to take a closer look at that doll they would have known that the R's had it because PP took it out of the house....

 

[MurriFlower]

The doll was on the list of things for PP to take out of the house.She took the american doll out of the house with the knowledge of BPD,so if they later on would have asked we want to take a closer look at that doll they would have known that the R's had it because PP took it out of the house....

Ok, so now I know a bit about this American Doll. It had fibers that were tan; some people were advised by some people who answered the telephone at the American Doll Company, to use duct tape on the neck . This is used as evidence that the doll may have been implicated in the crime? This is blamed on the parents, as apparently PP removed the doll? Then there is a post from someone claiming to work for the American doll company, who supposedly dispatched a doll to AG after the death of JBR?

Am I reading this correctly?

Now, back to the original question.

If this forum has a search feature, it should be easy enough for anyone interested to find the quotes about the doll and from the woman who worked for the doll manufacturer.
As far as the tan cotton fibers- they are listed among the evidence taken from the body/crime scene.
There is speculation that they came from JB's doll OR work gloves. As no work gloves were found and JB was KNOWN to have that type of doll, my bet is on the doll. Unfortunately, the doll "disappeared" from the house, so it was not tested against the tan fibers. The replacement doll, which was delivered to Access Graphics AFTER JB's death has not been accounted for, as far as I know, and I don't know whether it could be used to source those fibers. I suppose if the dolls had cloth bodies made from the same material it could be used, but if the dye lots or exact composition of the fabric were different, even slightly, then the replacement doll is of no use. Moot point anyway- the doll will never be turned over, if it even exists at this point. 16 years later, to use a doll made today would probably be equally useless.
__________________

So there were tan cotton fibers which were unsourced. There is duct tape which was unsourced.

Can you provide any evidence that PP took a doll?

Can you provide any evidence that the doll supposedly sent to AG was ordered by anyone associated to the Rs?

Can you provide any evidence that any brown fibers that were found were in any way related to the doll? (Remember the tape was sourced to it's maker, so sourcing the brown fibers to the doll should have been possible).

Thank you for this. Hopefully we can now try to discover if any of this has any relationship to the crime or if it is just another false lead.

 

[UKGuy]

Ok, so now I know a bit about this American Doll. It had fibers that were tan; some people were advised by some people who answered the telephone at the American Doll Company, to use duct tape on the neck . This is used as evidence that the doll may have been implicated in the crime? This is blamed on the parents, as apparently PP removed the doll? Then there is a post from someone claiming to work for the American doll company, who supposedly dispatched a doll to AG after the death of JBR?

Am I reading this correctly?

Now, back to the original question.



So there were tan cotton fibers which were unsourced. There is duct tape which was unsourced.

Can you provide any evidence that PP took a doll?

Can you provide any evidence that the doll supposedly sent to AG was ordered by anyone associated to the Rs?

Can you provide any evidence that any brown fibers that were found were in any way related to the doll? (Remember the tape was sourced to it's maker, so sourcing the brown fibers to the doll should have been possible).

Thank you for this. Hopefully we can now try to discover if any of this has any relationship to the crime or if it is just another false lead.

MurriFlower,

Without an original doll from that period to test and compare with crime-scene evidence some of these questions cannot be answered definitively.

Can you provide any evidence that the doll supposedly sent to AG was ordered by anyone associated to the Rs?

In the absence of evidence here that a Ramsey or associate was involved then as you suggest it may have been the intruder that sent it. But how would an intruder know which doll to purchase, or was it a lucky random choice or does this tell you that the intruder is a close Ramsey friend e.g. has had access to the house?

Alternatively The dolls removed from the house may be implicated in the death of JonBenet else why remove them, they are replaceable? Assuming they are hollow they may have contained JonBenet's missing size-6 underwear, underwear worn and stained by her killer, or some ligature artifact used to strangle JonBenet.

Or the doll may be a decoy whose purpose is only known to the killer, similar to the killer redressing JonBenet in size-12 underwear, so as to apparently hide her sexual assault?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

The doll's bodies are not hollow. Not possible to hide anything in the doll. The body is tan cotton stuffed with whatever soft dolls are stuffed with- batting of some type.

 

[UKGuy]

The doll's bodies are not hollow. Not possible to hide anything in the doll. The body is tan cotton stuffed with whatever soft dolls are stuffed with- batting of some type.

DeeDee249,
Thanks for the information. Maybe they were used in the staging or a Ramsey wanted another doll e.g. two, since some are suggesting none were removed or went missing.

Also how would any intruder/outsider know which doll to choose to send to John's Company?


.

 

[BBB167893]

Ok, so now I know a bit about this American Doll. It had fibers that were tan; some people were advised by some people who answered the telephone at the American Doll Company, to use duct tape on the neck . This is used as evidence that the doll may have been implicated in the crime? This is blamed on the parents, as apparently PP removed the doll? Then there is a post from someone claiming to work for the American doll company, who supposedly dispatched a doll to AG after the death of JBR?

Am I reading this correctly?

I'm pretty sure you are.

 

[MurriFlower]

I'm pretty sure you are.

So do you have an opinion about the significance of this doll?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Thanks for the information. Maybe they were used in the staging or a Ramsey wanted another doll e.g. two, since some are suggesting none were removed or went missing.

Also how would any intruder/outsider know which doll to choose to send to John's Company?


.

The doll itself was not part of staging. But the tan cotton fibers could have come from the doll's cotton body. Why is this important? It is important because the tape used on JB's mouth could have come from the doll's neck. Those dolls had a stuffed cloth body but a vinyl head and limbs. The head was tied to the cloth body by a white cord (similar to, but NOT the same as the cord used to make the garrote). The doll's neck cord was tied with a knot at the back of the neck, and that knot sometimes got tangled in the doll's hair or got in the way of the clothing. So the manufacturer (Pleasant Company) suggested that parents put a piece of duct tape over the knot on the cord around the doll's neck. Because the doll was not found in the house, it was not possible to test the fibers to see if they matched the cloth body or to test the doll's neck for tape residue.

 

[Ames]

...if this is true it would show that JR felt the need to replace the original doll and have it send to his business rather than his home address....from that I would draw the conclusion that the original doll held some type of evidence ( the navy blue fibers? the duct tape?) and JR got rid of the original doll and ordered a new one in case he was told to hand it over to LE....I can't really think of another reason why he would order a duplicate doll and have it send to his business....

The duct tape over JB's mouth was said to have not been very sticky....like it had been taken off of something else...and placed over her mouth. I think that the duct tape could have possibly came from her AG doll.

 

[Ames]

The doll was on the list of things for PP to take out of the house.She took the american doll out of the house with the knowledge of BPD,so if they later on would have asked we want to take a closer look at that doll they would have known that the R's had it because PP took it out of the house....

I think that it was taken out by PP without BP knowledge...they said that she had a TRUNK load of things...and she supposedly just went in to gather up funeral clothes. I think that it was taken out, so that investigators couldn't find the source of the tape.

 

[Ames]

Ok, so now I know a bit about this American Doll. It had fibers that were tan; some people were advised by some people who answered the telephone at the American Doll Company, to use duct tape on the neck . This is used as evidence that the doll may have been implicated in the crime? This is blamed on the parents, as apparently PP removed the doll? Then there is a post from someone claiming to work for the American doll company, who supposedly dispatched a doll to AG after the death of JBR?

Am I reading this correctly?

Now, back to the original question.



So there were tan cotton fibers which were unsourced. There is duct tape which was unsourced.

Can you provide any evidence that PP took a doll?

Can you provide any evidence that the doll supposedly sent to AG was ordered by anyone associated to the Rs?

Can you provide any evidence that any brown fibers that were found were in any way related to the doll? (Remember the tape was sourced to it's maker, so sourcing the brown fibers to the doll should have been possible).

Thank you for this. Hopefully we can now try to discover if any of this has any relationship to the crime or if it is just another false lead.

The orginal American Girl doll was missing...who else would have taken it? The invisible intruder?? If so...why??

 

[MurriFlower]

The orginal American Girl doll was missing...who else would have taken it? The invisible intruder?? If so...why??

Let's look at this doll story more closely.

The tape from the doll wasn't too sticky.
It had brown cotton fibers on it.
It was supposedly (according to SD but later retracted) 2" x 2".

This demonstrates that JBR was killed by the R's because:

1. The tape can be sourced to the doll.
2. The tape was not sticky so it would have been ineffective, indicating staging by the killer.
3. The tape was too small to have kept her quiet anyway, again indicating staging.

Assuming any of this were true, how does it exclude an intruder?

There seems to be the assumption that an intruder would not stage but a parent would.

You are suggesting that the tape on JBRs mouth came from the doll and this somehow implicates the Rs. Therefore they needed to get rid of the doll.

But having done so they ordered (secretly) another one just in case BPD asked them for it.

This is such a weak story, sorry guys!

 

[Ames]

Let's look at this doll story more closely.

The tape from the doll wasn't too sticky.
It had brown cotton fibers on it.
It was supposedly (according to SD but later retracted) 2" x 2".

This demonstrates that JBR was killed by the R's because:

1. The tape can be sourced to the doll.
2. The tape was not sticky so it would have been ineffective, indicating staging by the killer.
3. The tape was too small to have kept her quiet anyway, again indicating staging.

Assuming any of this were true, how does it exclude an intruder?

There seems to be the assumption that an intruder would not stage but a parent would.

You are suggesting that the tape on JBRs mouth came from the doll and this somehow implicates the Rs. Therefore they needed to get rid of the doll.

But having done so they ordered (secretly) another one just in case BPD asked them for it.

This is such a weak story, sorry guys!

1999 February 18 - Lawrence Schillers book, "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

Page 56:

"The day before, one of Patsy Ramsey's sisters had gone into the house with police permission and taken out an oil printing, several American Girl dolls, a portfilio of JonBenet's pageant photographs, a pageant medal with a blue ribbon, graduation photos of the older children, and a Bible from John Ramsey's desk, but she had missed JonBenet's stuffed cat, which Patsy had wanted retrieved."

------------------------------------------

And one was re-ordered and sent to John's office...just sounds fishy to me.

 

[MurriFlower]

1999 February 18 - Lawrence Schillers book, "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

Page 56:

"The day before, one of Patsy Ramsey's sisters had gone into the house with police permission and taken out an oil printing, several American Girl dolls, a portfilio of JonBenet's pageant photographs, a pageant medal with a blue ribbon, graduation photos of the older children, and a Bible from John Ramsey's desk, but she had missed JonBenet's stuffed cat, which Patsy had wanted retrieved."

------------------------------------------

And one was re-ordered and sent to John's office...just sounds fishy to me.

Assuming any of this were true, how does it exclude an intruder?

There seems to be the assumption that an intruder would not stage but a parent would.

You are suggesting that the tape on JBRs mouth came from the doll and this somehow implicates the Rs. Therefore they needed to get rid of the doll.

But having done so they ordered (secretly) another one just in case BPD asked them for it.

Wherever the story came from (and if it's real or not), I honestly can't see how it could implicate the R's. Please explain.

As I said before, the Santa Bear is also (apparently) missing. Does that implicate the Rs too?

So as RDI must insist that there was no intruder, then they have to say the Rs, PP or BR must have taken both items out. So PP gets the blame for taking it, doubtless in the golf bag.

Why would they then want to replace the doll (and not the teddy) and even sillier still, have it sent to AG?