You, the jury

[DeeDee249]

That Santa bear plays a big part in why I feel the parents covered up this crime. Nedra and her husband watched JB during one of Patsy's trips to NY. During this time, JB competed in (and won) a Christmas Pageant (was it Little Miss Christmas?) She can be seen looking cold and sad riding in an open-top vehicle in a red cape and tiara. She also won that Santa bear, which was given to participants. Patsy tried to say she had never seen the bear, but she was in JB's room every day, and had to know it was on the other twin bed. There were clothes all over that bed (which Patsy was sorting for packing for their trips) and she saw that bear. The origin of the bear eventually came to light, but like the suitcase (which FW admitted placing under that basement window) the Santa bear was also laid at the feet of the "intruder", completely ignoring it's true explanation.

 

[MurriFlower]

She is the lady that works for the AG (American Girl...not Access Graphics) company. Remember...I posted an article that she had written on another thread. She is the lady that saw the order for the new AG doll, and talked about the tan fibers. I have no clue if she saw the tape that had been on JB's mouth or not. But, according to Steve Thomas..he said that there were "lip prints" on the tape, Jahazafat said that if a piece of tape that had been placed over the strings, on an AG dolls back, was taken off...you could see the imprint of the strings on the tape. (She should know...she worked for the company that made them...Pleasant Co.), she was just wondering if the imprint on the tape...that looked like JB's lip imprint, could have been the imprint of the strings from the back of an AG doll. Did you even get to read the article that I posted. It talks about who Jahazafat is, and where she worked....and how she fits into this whole thing. If you didn't get a chance to read it, go back when you have time, and take a look...it explains alot about the American Girl doll. (The dolls have a string or cord around their neck...I have to go back and check, but I believe it is to keep the head attached to the soft body....anyway, the company suggests to parents to put tape over the cord, so that it doesn't get caught when their daughters brush the doll's hair).

So you're saying this lady who worked for the Pleasant Co (love that name!) has HER OWN WEBSITE?? Is this website devoted entirely to the doll story and JBR or is there some other reason?

Now back to the tape and the lip imprint.

This is why I am so sceptical about this type of 'evidence'.

First, ST says the cops looked at it and found it to be a 'perfect set of lip prints', ergo, RDI because it was placed there after death and was staging and no intruder would stage yarda yarda yarda.

But where did the tape come from as there was none in the house?

So now another story is introduced. This is about a doll. Apparently some people who work for Pleasant Co, and who were trained by one particular person, were told to inform anyone who telephoned about the string on the back of the doll, to place a small piece of duct tape there. They therefore surmise that JBRs doll had this tape and this was the tape used by the Rs for staging as above.

However, it occurs to them that anyone could have taken the tape from the doll and put it on JBR, so they have to come up with something more specific.

Now someone claiming to have worked for the Pleasant Co remembers an order (that fortunately can't be traced because it was a cashiers cheque or something) that was sent to the R's business address AFTER her death. This seals it for RDI. The doll MUST have been the source of the tape and the brown cotton fibers! Why?? Because they can't fathom how an intruder could have come into the house with both tape and brown fibers and killed this little girl? Or because they are desperately keen to prove their RDI theory, so these little stories have to be introduced to account for anomolies!

 

[DeeDee249]

So you're saying this lady who worked for the Pleasant Co (love that name!) has HER OWN WEBSITE?? Is this website devoted entirely to the doll story and JBR or is there some other reason?

Now back to the tape and the lip imprint.

This is why I am so sceptical about this type of 'evidence'.

First, ST says the cops looked at it and found it to be a 'perfect set of lip prints', ergo, RDI because it was placed there after death and was staging and no intruder would stage yarda yarda yarda.

But where did the tape come from as there was none in the house?

So now another story is introduced. This is about a doll. Apparently some people who work for Pleasant Co, and who were trained by one particular person, were told to inform anyone who telephoned about the string on the back of the doll, to place a small piece of duct tape there. They therefore surmise that JBRs doll had this tape and this was the tape used by the Rs for staging as above.

However, it occurs to them that anyone could have taken the tape from the doll and put it on JBR, so they have to come up with something more specific.

Now someone claiming to have worked for the Pleasant Co remembers an order (that fortunately can't be traced because it was a cashiers cheque or something) that was sent to the R's business address AFTER her death. This seals it for RDI. The doll MUST have been the source of the tape and the brown cotton fibers! Why?? Because they can't fathom how an intruder could have come into the house with both tape and brown fibers and killed this little girl? Or because they are desperately keen to prove their RDI theory, so these little stories have to be introduced to account for anomolies!

You are suggesting this is a part of every RDI theory. It is not. At least for me. We DO know that JB owned some of these dolls. That is a fact. I know for a fact that these dolls have a tan cotton body and a neck cord that some parents may have covered with duct tape. We don't know for SURE that JB's parents did. But the presence of the tape combined with the tan cotton fibers at the crime scene and the apparent "replacement" of the doll seem to make it a possibility that the tape did come from the doll. I am not positive, though.
I think the tape came from a roll that Patsy bought at the hardware store shortly before JB died. I think that roll of tape was removed from the house, either on the 26th or after, before LE found it. This doesn't mean the tape (or the cord) was bought for the crime. They are common household items. And it means that the doll may or may not have had a taped neck cord. However. the fact that the doll was NOT examined by forensic experts to test for residue of the tape on the doll or to match the tan fibers to the doll's bodies means we will never know for sure.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and we are all Monday morning quarterbacks, after all. But how I wish that house was kept as an INTACT (i.e. NO ONE other than LE being allowed in to remove anything) active crime scene long enough for LE to have gone back and gotten items like the doll to test against the fibers found on the body.

 

[joeskidbeck]

The cord on the doll could very well have been the reason Patsy bought the duct tape. Also, didn't I read somewhere about duct tape being on the back of one of Patsy's paintings? Will go back and try to find where I read that.

 

[cynic]

The cord on the doll could very well have been the reason Patsy bought the duct tape. Also, didn't I read somewhere about duct tape being on the back of one of Patsy's paintings? Will go back and try to find where I read that.

"In the Bedroom of JonBenet, I stood looking at the formal portrait in the ornate gold frame above her dresser, gripped by a haunting feeling that she wanted me to look harder. Later, strips of black duct tape similar to what had been taped over her mouth were discovered on the back of that picture."
ST Page 73

Originally we hoped to prove the black duct tape was from the same pieces found on the back of several portraits in the house.By determining the manufacturer, we might be able to find where it was sold and then track it back to the Ramsey house. We already thought that Patsy might have purchased a roll of such tape from McGuckin’s.
The FBI lab said that both tape samples, from the mouth and the pictures, were a low grade and of low quality, possibly the Shufford Mills model PC-600, but they wouldn’t call it a match
By September 1997 Detective Gosage and I visited the Shufford Mills factory in Hickory, North Carolina and learned that the duct tape was made in small quanties. In fact it only comprised 0.4 percent of the company’s product. We determined that it was sold at McGuckin’s
Shufford Mills gave us various tapes for testing, the dates when changes were made in yarn and scrim counts, recipies for various adhesives, and the various production periods, all of which we sent back to the FBI. In November 1997 the lab said the pieces of tape came from different production runs and had different yarn counts. Same brand, same type, different production run
ST pages 281-282

 

[joeskidbeck]

Thanks, Cynic. I knew I had read that but after awhile it gets hard to remember where you read what. That is really interesting information. Do you believe that the different production runs mean the tape was not from the Ramsey home? Certainly not impossible. Maybe you should post this info on the "Coincidence" thread......

 

[Ames]

That Santa bear plays a big part in why I feel the parents covered up this crime. Nedra and her husband watched JB during one of Patsy's trips to NY. During this time, JB competed in (and won) a Christmas Pageant (was it Little Miss Christmas?) She can be seen looking cold and sad riding in an open-top vehicle in a red cape and tiara. She also won that Santa bear, which was given to participants. Patsy tried to say she had never seen the bear, but she was in JB's room every day, and had to know it was on the other twin bed. There were clothes all over that bed (which Patsy was sorting for packing for their trips) and she saw that bear. The origin of the bear eventually came to light, but like the suitcase (which FW admitted placing under that basement window) the Santa bear was also laid at the feet of the "intruder", completely ignoring it's true explanation.

I believe that it was from the Little Miss Colorado Pageant. I TOTALLY agree with you. Like Patsy didn't know WHERE that Christmas Bear came from....give me a break. (Guess we are all supposed to believe that the INTRUDER brought that Christmas Bear in with him, with the Kleenex box, the pineapple and the bowl that Patsy didn't recognize.)

 

[Ames]

The cord on the doll could very well have been the reason Patsy bought the duct tape. Also, didn't I read somewhere about duct tape being on the back of one of Patsy's paintings? Will go back and try to find where I read that.

Yep, I read that too. I also read that she used some sort of cord, or twine on her paintings too. I read that she used those things to carry her paintings with. (I guess that she would duct tape the cord or twine at each end...to the back of the painting..leaving sort of a hanger to hold it with.)

 

[Ames]

So you're saying this lady who worked for the Pleasant Co (love that name!) has HER OWN WEBSITE?? Is this website devoted entirely to the doll story and JBR or is there some other reason?

==Snipped...for length==

!

Good question! I have no idea what her website is about. Maybe one of us should Google it. I don't have time right now...but, will do it later. I was wondering about that myself.

 

[MurriFlower]

I believe that it was from the Little Miss Colorado Pageant. I TOTALLY agree with you. Like Patsy didn't know WHERE that Christmas Bear came from....give me a break. (Guess we are all supposed to believe that the INTRUDER brought that Christmas Bear in with him, with the Kleenex box, the pineapple and the bowl that Patsy didn't recognize.)

It seems this Santa Bear has caused a lot of confusion.

Apparently it was won by JBR at a pageant on 17 Dec. PR didn't recognise it, perhaps because she had only owned it for a short time. Maybe it hadn't been on the bed previously and you could imagine JBR putting it out on display at Christmas.

But, there was also a story that the Santa Bear was missing. PP was suspected of taking it. Now it seems that this isn't true either the bear was not missing at all.

Boy, the Bear and the Doll might turn out to be just innocent witnesses in all this.

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,

It is not clearly seen and it is not extremely long. SD's estimate may not be too far out, it was certainly not ten inches long which would have wrapped around her head. We have done the tape before and assumed the side facing upwards is the sticky side which takes on a silver look under the light, with the black side underneath.

There is an optical illusion due to the curvature of the blanket which makes it look as if the tape is longer, that dark patch may simply be the shadow from the upper curve of the blanket or the edging on blaket as it folds under itself.

Bring on Columbo ...

No, it's not an illusion. Uk, open it in your photo editing software, crop and enlarge that section, set it to negative, now alter the brightness and contrast. I guarantee it will jump out at you. The tape, the cord, what looks like a stick or something straight half hiden in the blanket. The cord has a twist in it near the tape. One end goes to the tape, the other to the 'stick'. The cord throws a shadow on the blanket even. The tape I thought originally was several pieces now looks like one long piece twisted on itself so it shows silver in some parts and black in others.

 

[Ames]

It seems this Santa Bear has caused a lot of confusion.

Apparently it was won by JBR at a pageant on 17 Dec. PR didn't recognise it, perhaps because she had only owned it for a short time. Maybe it hadn't been on the bed previously and you could imagine JBR putting it out on display at Christmas.

But, there was also a story that the Santa Bear was missing. PP was suspected of taking it. Now it seems that this isn't true either the bear was not missing at all.

Boy, the Bear and the Doll might turn out to be just innocent witnesses in all this.

Yeah, and if only they could talk!!!

Even if JB had owned it only for a short while...it was given to her at one of the pageants....to all of the participants. Those Pageants were Patsy's life....she was even in one herself...she was Miss West Virginia...awhile back. IMO...she would have remembered JB bringing something like that home, with her trophy that she had won. She HAD to have seen it...and she must have had a terribly short memory if she had already forgotten about it, when JB came home with the bear just 8-9 days before her death.

 

[MurriFlower]

Yeah, and if only they could talk!!!

Even if JB had owned it only for a short while...it was given to her at one of the pageants....to all of the participants. Those Pageants were Patsy's life....she was even in one herself...she was Miss West Virginia...awhile back. IMO...she would have remembered JB bringing something like that home, with her trophy that she had won. She HAD to have seen it...and she must have had a terribly short memory if she had already forgotten about it, when JB came home with the bear just 8-9 days before her death.

Yeah, I don't know. I think JR picked up the prizes, so she may not have seen it. Anyway, the trauma of JBRs death could have easily affected her. Some memory loss can be expected after a massive shock like this. I'm not concerned any longer about either the doll or the bear being involved, so I'm clearing them as suspects.

 

[claudicici]

I also don't think the bear or the doll did it j/k ,murryflower,you said you were clearing "them" as suspects

 

[Ames]

Yeah, I don't know. I think JR picked up the prizes, so she may not have seen it. Anyway, the trauma of JBRs death could have easily affected her. Some memory loss can be expected after a massive shock like this. I'm not concerned any longer about either the doll or the bear being involved, so I'm clearing them as suspects.

Patsy would have been riding in the car with JB on the way home from the pageant...she would have seen that bear. She may not have remembered seeing it, though...like you said. But...imo...I think that she rememered that bear. Just sayin'...

 

[claudicici]

I think I remember reading that JB was with her grandparents during that pageant and her parents were out of town?

 

[Ames]

I think I remember reading that JB was with her grandparents during that pageant and her parents were out of town?

It was the Christmas parade that JB was in, and rode a float as Little Miss Colorado, that her parents couldn't attend, because they were out of town. According to John...Nedra was there.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: She was in a
19 couple of little parades in Charlevoix where
20 they, you know, little small town, brought your
21 own Corvettes and kids would be on the back and
22 JonBenet was in a couple of those.
23 MIKE KANE: You guys were out of
24 town that weekend. I think you said that Mike
25 Archuleta's that wife is the one that took --

0464
1 JOHN RAMSEY: She drove the
2 car, she was there as United Way. I think
3 Patsy's mom was there. She took care of the
4 kids while we were away, so I don't know who
5 picked up, how the logistics were handled but –

 

[UKGuy]

It was the Christmas parade that JB was in, and rode a float as Little Miss Colorado, that her parents couldn't attend, because they were out of town. According to John...Nedra was there.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: She was in a
19 couple of little parades in Charlevoix where
20 they, you know, little small town, brought your
21 own Corvettes and kids would be on the back and
22 JonBenet was in a couple of those.
23 MIKE KANE: You guys were out of
24 town that weekend. I think you said that Mike
25 Archuleta's that wife is the one that took --

0464
1 JOHN RAMSEY: She drove the
2 car, she was there as United Way. I think
3 Patsy's mom was there. She took care of the
4 kids while we were away, so I don't know who
5 picked up, how the logistics were handled but –

Ames,

and Don Paugh?


.

 

[Ames]

Ames,

and Don Paugh?


.

I didn't see anything about him, but...if Nedra was there...and they were taking care of the kids while the Ramsey's were away...as John stated...then he most likely was there too. Doesn't mention him in the interview though. John wasn't even sure if Nedra was there or not...he said that he "thinks" that she was. I read somewhere else though..that Don and Nedra both were there.

 

[MurriFlower]

It was the Christmas parade that JB was in, and rode a float as Little Miss Colorado, that her parents couldn't attend, because they were out of town. According to John...Nedra was there.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: She was in a
19 couple of little parades in Charlevoix where
20 they, you know, little small town, brought your
21 own Corvettes and kids would be on the back and
22 JonBenet was in a couple of those.
23 MIKE KANE: You guys were out of
24 town that weekend. I think you said that Mike
25 Archuleta's that wife is the one that took --

0464
1 JOHN RAMSEY: She drove the
2 car, she was there as United Way. I think
3 Patsy's mom was there. She took care of the
4 kids while we were away, so I don't know who
5 picked up, how the logistics were handled but –

Where she won the Bear was Denver, on 17 Dec according to ACR.